Politics What sides of Political fence do you sit on?

[barfo]

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-has-big-tax-refund-coming-from-uncle-sam-mdash-again/

Boeing books its profits using a method that amortizes its multibillion-dollar investments in new jets over 20-plus years; for example, it averages today’s actual 787 losses against expected future 787 profits.

While the 787 program is projected to continue hemorrhaging money through 2015 at least, after that it’s supposed to creep gradually into the black and to start reducing the accumulated deficit that by then will have reached $25 billion.

Spreading the program’s current losses over future years is the accounting method that allows Boeing to show a profit every quarter.

If losses were instead booked as each jet is built, company figures show, last year’s massive $5.8 billion profit in the Commercial Airplanes division would have flipped to a $1.6 billion loss.

(reality is $1.6B loss, no blood from that turnip).

Yep, and every corporation is just like Boeing, they are all investing in new airliners this year. None of them is generating any cash at all. And they never have. Capitalism is a complete sham.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Yep, and every corporation is just like Boeing, they are all investing in new airliners this year. None of them is generating any cash at all. And they never have. Capitalism is a complete sham.

barfo

No, in barfoland they're printing presses that just print money for the government to spend.

In reality, there are three sets of books a company runs by:

1) To show investors (profit! profit! profit!)
2) To show the IRS (losses! losses! losses!)
3) To run the day to day business (cash flow).

Yeah, barfo, companies do use accrual accounting methods. It's by the book. Maybe some do cash accounting, but they're not going to be listed on any stock exchange.

By the way, Boeing contributed $8 BILLION to the pension fund for its employees. It was not taxed, but it will be when the employees retire and withdraw from the fund. Their "profit" was reduced by this $8B for tax purposes.

Sure, give that money to the government instead! The government makes everyone's lives better.

The market cap of the entire NYSE is $20T. Obama borrowed half that much. Yep, enough money to buy 1/2 of all the companies on the NYSE, lock stock and barrel.

Hell, if Bernie seized Apple and sold it to the Chinese, it wouldn't even cover a year's deficit.

 

[Denny Crane]

The World Socialist Web Site calls Sanders fascist.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/02/sand-f11.html

 

[SlyPokerDog]

When anyone lends money, the higher the risk, the higher the interest you'd charge.

Shhhhhhhhhhh! Shut up with the high risk crap, you're going to make the banks lose their ultra low interest rates from the feds.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I wouldn't have bailed out the banks.

Now I know you're just fucking with me. You almost had me.

Dude, that crazy socialist Sanders wants to Reinstate Glass-Steagall Act!

We can't have that.

Say it with me now....

I like big banks and I can not lie!

 

[Denny Crane]

Now I know you're just fucking with me. You almost had me.

Dude, that crazy socialist Sanders wants to Reinstate Glass-Steagall Act!

We can't have that.

Say it with me now....

I like big banks and I can not lie!

I don't care if banks are big or not. All I really care is the government not interfere or play favorites.

Say it with me now...

Government isn't the solution to problems, it's the cause of problems.

 

[Denny Crane]

Shhhhhhhhhhh! Shut up with the high risk crap, you're going to make the banks lose their ultra low interest rates from the feds.

Roughly 14% of student loans are in default by about $15K each. The interest rate is ~6%. The loans are unsecured.

Roughly 6% of mortgages are in default. The interest rate is ~4% for those with awesome credit history AND the loan is secured by property.

Boo hoo?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Roughly 14% of student loans are in default by about $15K each. The interest rate is ~6%. The latest ans are unsecured.

Roughly 6% of mortgages are in default. The interest rate is ~4% for those with awesome credit history AND the loan is secured by property.

Boo hoo?

Student loans were 3% just a few years ago. Congress allowed the rate to double to 6%.

Student loans are one of the only loans you can not wipe in bankruptcy.

 

[Denny Crane]

Student loans were 3% just a few years ago. Congress allowed the rate to double to 6%.

Student loans are one of the only loans you can not wipe in bankruptcy.

As the rates increased, the defaults decreased.

Seems like a good thing.

 

[Denny Crane]

 

[barfo]

No, in barfoland they're printing presses that just print money for the government to spend.

In reality, there are three sets of books a company runs by:

1) To show investors (profit! profit! profit!)
2) To show the IRS (losses! losses! losses!)
3) To run the day to day business (cash flow).

Yeah, barfo, companies do use accrual accounting methods. It's by the book. Maybe some do cash accounting, but they're not going to be listed on any stock exchange.

By the way, Boeing contributed $8 BILLION to the pension fund for its employees. It was not taxed, but it will be when the employees retire and withdraw from the fund. Their "profit" was reduced by this $8B for tax purposes.

Sure, give that money to the government instead! The government makes everyone's lives better.

The market cap of the entire NYSE is $20T. Obama borrowed half that much. Yep, enough money to buy 1/2 of all the companies on the NYSE, lock stock and barrel.

Hell, if Bernie seized Apple and sold it to the Chinese, it wouldn't even cover a year's deficit.

That's all very amusing, but not a cogent argument. Your claim that only an additional $74B can be obtained via corporate taxes has been debunked.

barfo

 

[dviss1]

I don't care if banks are big or not. All I really care is the government not interfere or play favorites.

Say it with me now...

Government isn't the solution to problems, it's the cause of problems.

More libertarian bullcrap. Go to Somalia if you don't want government. The "free" market is some bullshit. There is absolutely no such thing. These corporations in these banks have it rigged in their favor. For you to act like they don't is just a crock...

 

[dviss1]

As the rates increased, the defaults decreased.

Seems like a good thing.

The more times you say it doesn't make it true. Education should not be for profit. There I go being the Ying to your yang. You mean to tell me that it's better for students to have a higher interest rates... Wow... It's amazing how these libertarians think... You never answered my question before: when has libertarianism ever worked on this planet?

 

[dviss1]

As the rates increased, the defaults decreased.

Seems like a good thing.

You can't have it both ways Denny. You can't say that government is the cause of all the problems and then in the other breath say that them doubling interest rates on students was a good thing.

 

[dviss1]

Dude, UNIONS ARE TAX EXEMPT. Pastors pay tax.

The government doesn't tax non-profit organizations.

My boy John SCHOOLS you here. And his investigation team is probably the best in the business. And don't write it off as comedy either that's a cop out:

[/QUOTE]

 

[Denny Crane]

That's all very amusing, but not a cogent argument. Your claim that only an additional $74B can be obtained via corporate taxes has been debunked.

barfo

More like buried in your bunk.

There's $2.1T in offshore profits, total, accrued by ALL the corporations over several years. Since 2004, in fact. 35% of that is ~$700B. $70B/year over the 10 year period.

You can make up numbers all you want. They're just bunk.

 

[Denny Crane]

More libertarian bullcrap. Go to Somalia if you don't want government. The "free" market is some bullshit. There is absolutely no such thing. These corporations in these banks have it rigged in their favor. For you to act like they don't is just a crock...

I do want government. Only that we require and no more.

There isn't a free market because of government interference.

Government makes the tax code. You want more of it, yet complain about it.

 

[Denny Crane]

My boy John SCHOOLS you here. And his investigation team is probably the best in the business. And don't write it off as comedy either that's a cop out:

[/QUOTE]

A clown is your source. Awesome.

 

[Denny Crane]

You can't have it both ways Denny. You can't say that government is the cause of all the problems and then in the other breath say that them doubling interest rates on students was a good thing.

Government didn't double the rates. Nobody forces anyone to take out one of these loans.

 

[dviss1]

A clown is your source. Awesome.[/QUOTE]

Hilarious how you will do just like most trolls do and shoot the messenger. Watch the frigging video. I bet you don't. He actually has an investigative team that does his work. Watch the video and educate yourself. Also that's not my source. That's just the source that can put it into layman's terms so libertarians can understand. Like I said watch the video. I knew you would cop out...

 

[dviss1]

Government didn't double the rates. Nobody forces anyone to take out one of these loans.

Wow... So now the Republicans in the House didn't raise the rates? Are you trying to perform a Gish gallop in this debate? Paint so much bull crap that it's hard to refute it all?

 

[Denny Crane]

The more times you say it doesn't make it true. Education should not be for profit. There I go being the Ying to your yang. You mean to tell me that it's better for students to have a higher interest rates... Wow... It's amazing how these libertarians think... You never answered my question before: when has libertarianism ever worked on this planet?

Most of education isn't for profit. Tuition at the UofI where I went, is now $20K a year. When I went, it was $500/semester and $300 for books. Now that government is subsidizing loans, the schools raise their rates. Like piglets suckling on the government teets.

UofI is a STATE SCHOOL, not a for profit business.

A free market would mean very few could afford the rates so they'd have to lower them to fill up the student body. Supply and demand, Econ 101 (at UofI of course).

 

[Denny Crane]

Wow... So now the Republicans in the House didn't raise the rates? Are you trying to perform a Gish gallop in this debate? Paint so much bull crap that it's hard to refute it all?

The house doesn't set the rates. Obama could veto, but doesn't. You trust him or a clown?

The government sets the rates for federal loans, but those aren't all the loans taken on by students. Only one of the four kinds of federal loans is 6% or more. Those are direct loans to the parents, who presumably have some net worth.

ALL federal loans to undergrads are at 4.29% for 2015, a DECREASE of .37% from last year.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/announcements/interest-rate

 

[Denny Crane]

A clown is your source. Awesome.

Hilarious how you will do just like most trolls do and shoot the messenger. Watch the frigging video. I bet you don't. He actually has an investigative team that does his work. Watch the video and educate yourself. Also that's not my source. That's just the source that can put it into layman's terms so libertarians can understand. Like I said watch the video. I knew you would cop out...[/QUOTE]
I saw the video, went to his site.

I'm no fan of religion in any form, but for good reason, the government has to be hands off religion. Like, what if they tax Catholics 80% but Unitarians 5%? That would be establishing a national religion.

Unions are tax exempt. Why should they be? Hmmm? For the record, I am pro (non public) Union.

 

[barfo]

There's $2.1T in offshore profits, total, accrued by ALL the corporations over several years. Since 2004, in fact. 35% of that is ~$700B. $70B/year over the 10 year period.

Ok, so you just found another $70B. Good work. $74B here, $70B there, pretty soon it adds up to real money. Keep going, there is more to be found!

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Ok, so you just found another $70B. Good work. $74B here, $70B there, pretty soon it adds up to real money. Keep going, there is more to be found!

barfo

That's all of the "profits" you want to tax, barfo. There is no more than the ~$73.5B to be more exact. The HIGHEST estimate of accumulated untaxed profits is $2.1T.

$2.1T * .35 (35% corporate tax) is $.735T

Sue me if I round it down to $70B. Last repatriation of such funds was 2004. It's really been 11 years now. $.735T/11 = ~$67B.

That's all there is to get your panties in a wad over.

 

[barfo]

That's all of the "profits" you want to tax, barfo. There is no more than the ~$73.5B to be more exact. The HIGHEST estimate of accumulated untaxed profits is $2.1T.

You forgot to say 'held overseas'. Not all profits are held overseas.

You want to pretend there aren't any profits that could be taxed. There are, there are $6T in profits each and every year.

I'm not actually arguing for increasing corporate taxes. I'm just pointing out that your DennyMath is very misleading - at best.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

You forgot to say 'held overseas'. Not all profits are held overseas.

You want to pretend there aren't any profits that could be taxed. There are, there are $6T in profits each and every year.

I'm not actually arguing for increasing corporate taxes. I'm just pointing out that your DennyMath is very misleading - at best.

barfo

For the companies to get to zero or negative tax, virtually all of their profit is overseas.

Otherwise they'd be paying US taxes on it.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/02/apple-cash-mountain-grows

Apple last week reported that its cash mountain had grown to $178bn (£118bn) – among the biggest of any public corporation in the world. The lion’s share is surplus profits from outside America, in large part thanks to the huge popularity of its phones, laptops and other products around the globe, but also in no small measure because of its aggressive Irish tax structure.

As at the end of September last year, cash held offshore and beyond the grasp of the US taxman stood at $137bn and is likely to have grown since. At present, this sum cannot be reinvested in Apple’s US businesses nor returned to shareholders without incurring a colossal tax bill. In effect, it is in limbo.

The cash pile is technically owned by Apple’s subsidiaries in Knocknaheeny, a rundown northern suburb of Cork, Ireland. But it is managed by a rarely talked-of investment subsidiary closer to home and largely invested in American assets, including billions in corporate bonds and US government debt.

There is only one brief mention of this opaque internal investment company in Apple’s annual report, on page 114. It is called Braeburn Capital and registered in a quiet corner of Reno, Nevada. Some commentators have described it as “the biggest hedge fund you’ve never heard of”.

It is this kind of operation – common to many US multinationals, particularly in the tech and pharmaceuticals industries – that Obama is looking to deflate, freeing up America’s largest companies to repatriate cash held in limbo, but without releasing them entirely from US tax liabilities they have been avoiding for years, often very creatively.

My note: the remainder of the $178B is not "permanently invested" overseas, but it is overseas and the tax deferred. If they had paid 35% tax on it all along, it would have been ~$3.5B/year in revenue to the government. To make things even better for Apple, when they need cash, they borrow money from the overseas subsidiary. Borrowed money isn't taxed, and the interest paid (from apple to apple) is.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-to-offer-more-bonds-1422888975

Apple Boosts Size of Bond Deal to $6.5 Billion
U.S.’s Largest High-Grade Corporate-Debt Sale This Year Finds Strong Demand; ‘A Nice, Core Holding’

 

[barfo]

For the companies to get to zero or negative tax, virtually all of their profit is overseas.

Otherwise they'd be paying US taxes on it.

Well, no. The tax code is really quite complex, and there are many, many ways to legally - or at least arguably legally - avoid paying tax. Big companies have entire departments dedicated to it.

barfo

 

[dviss1]

I saw the video, went to his site.

I'm no fan of religion in any form, but for good reason, the government has to be hands off religion. Like, what if they tax Catholics 80% but Unitarians 5%? That would be establishing a national religion.

Unions are tax exempt. Why should they be? Hmmm? For the record, I am pro (non public) Union.

Strawman... tax all those motherfuckers! There's absolutely no reason that someone should be able to live in a 6 million dollar house without paying any property tax.