Who was Jesus?

[ABM]

If you embrace the philosophy of Christianity and most of us do knowingly or not, does it matter whether you firmly believe in...Jesus?

It does to Jesus/God, yes. Unfortunately, many are gonna miss Heaven by around 16" or so........the distance between their head....and their heart.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

If Jesus wasn't a real guy then this philosophy you speak of did not come from him. That's why that matters.

And I certainly do not embrace the philosophy of Christianity any more than I do of Harry Potter.

And I actually take more from Superman.

Sorry dog, I'm on your side but I couldn't help it:

'Man of Steel' director Zack Snyder on Superman's Christ-like parallels'

 

[crowTrobot]

It does to Jesus/God, yes. Unfortunately, many are gonna miss Heaven by around 16" or so........the distance between their head....and their heart.

blessed are the poor in cognition for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

 

[magnifier661]

Sorry dog, I'm on your side but I couldn't help it:

'Man of Steel' director Zack Snyder on Superman's Christ-like parallels'

How ironic! Lol

 

[ABM]

blessed are the poor in cognition for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Let it be so!

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

 

[Sinobas]

You all confuse me with your hard line, whether you (are of simply mind) believe in Jesus, or you reject (logical mind needing evidence) Jesus and scoff at those that don't.

The philosophy of Christianity (taken from the teachings of Christ) is followed by many churches each of which teach and follow their specific brand of religion. But the philosophy is also accepted by the vast majority of our countryman even those that do not belong to any church. This nation was founded within the principles of the Christian philosophy even though the Constitution prohibits the promotion of any specific Religion as practiced by anyone church..

If you embrace the philosophy of Christianity and most of us do knowingly or not, does it matter whether you firmly believe in physical existents of the man Jesus? The philosphy based on the teachings of Jesus are with us
everyday and that cannot be refuted by any of the self appointed nonbelievers.

Point out the parts that come from the Bible, or are inspired by the Bible.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

If we'd used the Bible for inspiration, we'd never have rebelled against England because the Bible says that all authority comes from God.

 

[Jesus Christ Son of God]

I'm thinking about writing an 11th commandment about not molesting children.

I can't believe dad missed that one.

 

[Further]

You all confuse me with your hard line, whether you (are of simply mind) believe in Jesus, or you reject (logical mind needing evidence) Jesus and scoff at those that don't.

The philosophy of Christianity (taken from the teachings of Christ) is followed by many churches each of which teach and follow their specific brand of religion. But the philosophy is also accepted by the vast majority of our countryman even those that do not belong to any church. This nation was founded within the principles of the Christian philosophy even though the Constitution prohibits the promotion of any specific Religion as practiced by anyone church..

If you embrace the philosophy of Christianity and most of us do knowingly or not, does it matter whether you firmly believe in physical existents of the man Jesus? The philosphy based on the teachings of Jesus are with us
everyday and that cannot be refuted by any of the self appointed nonbelievers.

I think it most certainly does matter if you believe in Jesus. Because that little stumbling point is why they think no matter how good I am in life, I go to hell. It sets up the us verses them. And it is also the linchpin to believing in something that says doctrin is more important than reason or knowledge. And that is what scares me when I think about us growing into a better tomorrow.

 

[MarAzul]

Point out the parts that come from the Bible, or are inspired by the Bible.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

If we'd used the Bible for inspiration, we'd never have rebelled against England because the Bible says that all authority comes from God.

Try the Declaration of Independence for inspiration, Specifically this line,
"that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,"

Then you see the Constitution being drawn up to make it so.

 

[MarAzul]

I think it most certainly does matter if you believe in Jesus. Because that little stumbling point is why they think no matter how good I am in life, I go to hell. It sets up the us verses them. And it is also the linchpin to believing in something that says doctrin is more important than reason or knowledge. And that is what scares me when I think about us growing into a better tomorrow.

Let me put it this way, If you live your life in the spirt of the Christian philosophy, you will never see hell in this life. Many that reject that idea are not so fortunate. Having never met the man Jesus, none that live now can do better.

 

[e_blazer]

I think it most certainly does matter if you believe in Jesus. Because that little stumbling point is why they think no matter how good I am in life, I go to hell. It sets up the us verses them. And it is also the linchpin to believing in something that says doctrin is more important than reason or knowledge. And that is what scares me when I think about us growing into a better tomorrow.

While I've been reading this thread, I don't tend to participate in these discussions because they generally don't accomplish much. I've said before in many threads that I'm a Christian. To me, the answer to the title of this thread is that I consider Jesus to be my Lord and savior. I do appreciate that you seem to be more fair than many in the way you approach this conversation, but I have to jump in here and say that I think you're just flat wrong in what you've said in this post. Christianity is not an "us versus them" theology. It's a recognition that we're all inherently flawed people and that none of us can be "good" enough to be worthy of living eternally with a purely holy God. Dogma has nothing to do with salvation. Relationship with Jesus does.

That said, I think we all start from the same place when we look up at the night sky and realize just how very large the universe is and how very small we humans are. It's only natural that we ask the fundamental questions of how and why our universe exists and why is there life in at least this little outpost called earth. Atheists seem to want to claim the science mantle and cast those who believe in a creator into the realm of the ignorant and the superstitious. I guess I don't see it that way. The basic question of how did the universe begin can basically be answered in one of two ways: 1. It began through some totally natural process due to unknown and ultimately unknowable conditions that existed outside of our time and universe, since time began at the moment of the universe's creation; or 2. It began when an unknown creator instigated it through unknown and ultimately unknown processes from a point outside of our universe and time. Science, while a great method man has developed for studying his world and universe, has no way of getting at this problem since it invoves things that simply can't be inspected or tested. We can look at our universe and say that it most likely began with a big bang from a single point 14 or so billions years ago, but as to the causality...god or a natural process outside of our reality...there's no test that can exist or will ever exist to deal with that question. I think that there are a lot of reasons to believe that the order of the universe and the fine balancing of it's physical laws that allows it to continue to exist speaks of an intelligent design, but I'll be the first to admit that this is subject to personal interpretation.

Similarly, the questions as to how and why life should exist are unlikely to be resolvable by scientific study. Why and how inanimate elements would be organized into lifeforms having the ability to replicate themselves is something that we have only the wildest of speculation about. When you think of the incredible amount of information contained in the DNA that allows even the simplest of single celled organisms to exist, when you think of how many processes have to exist within a cell simply to allow it to take in food, process it to derive energy, eliminate waste, etc., it seems to me to be pretty far fetched to believe that just happened by accident or through some random physical process.

My belief is based upon my personal journey of thinking about these issues, reading the Bible, talking with others (believers and non-believers), life experiences, prayer, and faith. I can't prove God's existance, but I've felt His presence and seen His actions. I understand and accept that others who do not have the same faith will see my belief as misguided. Frankly, I've long passed the age where I'm too worried about the opinions of others about my thoughts and actions relative to my religion.

Ultimately, I think that our response to what we think about these questions is about as deeply personal of a decision as we can make at humans. I get very tired of seeing people of faith or atheists trying to push their views onto others. I think that we should all have a lot more respect for the thoughts and decisions of other people. I'll gladly discuss my thoughts on these topics with anyone, but I'm not going to try to browbeat anybody into agreeing with me. I appologize for the arrogant actions of some well-intentioned but, I believe, ultimately misguided Christians who show anything but grace towards non-Christians. I do think that it would be nice if some of you here would at least show a bit more respect for those of us who do believe. I fully believe that we should reciprocate with regard to your lack of belief.

 

[Further]

While I've been reading this thread, I don't tend to participate in these discussions because they generally don't accomplish much. I've said before in many threads that I'm a Christian. To me, the answer to the title of this thread is that I consider Jesus to be my Lord and savior. I do appreciate that you seem to be more fair than many in the way you approach this conversation, but I have to jump in here and say that I think you're just flat wrong in what you've said in this post. Christianity is not an "us versus them" theology. It's a recognition that we're all inherently flawed people and that none of us can be "good" enough to be worthy of living eternally with a purely holy God. Dogma has nothing to do with salvation. Relationship with Jesus does.

That said, I think we all start from the same place when we look up at the night sky and realize just how very large the universe is and how very small we humans are. It's only natural that we ask the fundamental questions of how and why our universe exists and why is there life in at least this little outpost called earth. Atheists seem to want to claim the science mantle and cast those who believe in a creator into the realm of the ignorant and the superstitious. I guess I don't see it that way. The basic question of how did the universe begin can basically be answered in one of two ways: 1. It began through some totally natural process due to unknown and ultimately unknowable conditions that existed outside of our time and universe, since time began at the moment of the universe's creation; or 2. It began when an unknown creator instigated it through unknown and ultimately unknown processes from a point outside of our universe and time. Science, while a great method man has developed for studying his world and universe, has no way of getting at this problem since it invoves things that simply can't be inspected or tested. We can look at our universe and say that it most likely began with a big bang from a single point 14 or so billions years ago, but as to the causality...god or a natural process outside of our reality...there's no test that can exist or will ever exist to deal with that question. I think that there are a lot of reasons to believe that the order of the universe and the fine balancing of it's physical laws that allows it to continue to exist speaks of an intelligent design, but I'll be the first to admit that this is subject to personal interpretation.

Similarly, the questions as to how and why life should exist are unlikely to be resolvable by scientific study. Why and how inanimate elements would be organized into lifeforms having the ability to replicate themselves is something that we have only the wildest of speculation about. When you think of the incredible amount of information contained in the DNA that allows even the simplest of single celled organisms to exist, when you think of how many processes have to exist within a cell simply to allow it to take in food, process it to derive energy, eliminate waste, etc., it seems to me to be pretty far fetched to believe that just happened by accident or through some random physical process.

My belief is based upon my personal journey of thinking about these issues, reading the Bible, talking with others (believers and non-believers), life experiences, prayer, and faith. I can't prove God's existance, but I've felt His presence and seen His actions. I understand and accept that others who do not have the same faith will see my belief as misguided. Frankly, I've long passed the age where I'm too worried about the opinions of others about my thoughts and actions relative to my religion.

Ultimately, I think that our response to what we think about these questions is about as deeply personal of a decision as we can make at humans. I get very tired of seeing people of faith or atheists trying to push their views onto others. I think that we should all have a lot more respect for the thoughts and decisions of other people. I'll gladly discuss my thoughts on these topics with anyone, but I'm not going to try to browbeat anybody into agreeing with me. I appologize for the arrogant actions of some well-intentioned but, I believe, ultimately misguided Christians who show anything but grace towards non-Christians. I do think that it would be nice if some of you here would at least show a bit more respect for those of us who do believe. I fully believe that we should reciprocate with regard to your lack of belief.

Excellent post, I agree with some and not other parts, but thought it was interesting, fair and honest. Repped.

There are just a couple points I want to make. You may feel that Christianity is not us vs them, and I suppose for many many Christians they are not adversarial in that way. I painted with too broad a brush. I personally have felt many times that my lack of accepting of Christ had made me "the other" and history has born out that the us vs them track has come into play many times. But, I have also felt accepted and loved by believers so I know some do truly act in an all-accepting way. I also know that there are atheists who also create a divide and perpetuate the us vs them mentality. I personally try not to act hat way, though I do enjoy discussing these topics.

The other part I wanted to touch on, I have stated several times here and it has been attacked more by the atheists than the Christians. I have no problem with people like you or Mags saying you see god in the areas that science can't reach. Did god create the Big Bang and set forth the laws and conditions to create the scenario that will lead to life? I don't think so, but if that is your stance I'm fine with that. My issue is where religion contradicts the known. The age of the earth is an example of that.

As far as this thread, I started it because I was interested in understanding how Christians think about something specific. I have no idea if there was a man Jesus, I don't care. What still has not been answered and was the point of the thread, I want to know how people can believe in the biblical Jesus when almost every story about his birth, life and death can be attribute to earlier works? Do people not believe the earlier works, do they believe those works are false, do they just not allow themselves to contemplate the conundrum, how do Christians deal with belief when juxtaposed with the knowable when the knowable throws in a monkey wrench?

 

[magnifier661]

Well e blazer and GOD; I liked both your comments. It's nice knowing that some sides aren't as arrogant as that "broad brush" that was described.

I think Denny classified it well. I do believe philosophy governs the soul; while science is the tool in which man can monitor. That science can't govern morality; instead the pursuit of philosophy will net good will.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Religion isn't a good thing. IMO. I think true Christianity is a good thing. It isn't about structure, but of grace. Grace is the key word. You should look it up and I think you would understand what I mean.

I actually love the ideas of Buddhism; which really doesn't believe in a God. They have bits and pieces of ideology that I can really agree on. Many times; understanding that you are only in control of yourself, your destiny is a good way at looking at things. Doing good for others; which rewards your inner spirit is also a good thing.

I like that idea. Almost makes me want to learn more about Christianity. It's when people start saying you will go to hell unless you do this, that turns me off about the whole thing and why I probably haven't seriously considered learning about it (my rebellious side).

In my mind, I know I'm a good person. If there is a heaven and hell, I can't believe it comes down to if you followed a certain belief or believe in something or not. This idea that you will go to hell if you don't do A, B and C seems so silly to me. Also, I suspect being a biology major in college has really shaped a lot of what I believe . . . for better or for worse.

 

[Sinobas]

Try the Declaration of Independence for inspiration, Specifically this line,
"that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,"

Then you see the Constitution being drawn up to make it so.

And just where in the Bible does it say anything like this? As Christopher Hitchens would say, the God of the Bible is more in line with the dictator of North Korea.

Neither the constitution nor articles of confederation had anything to do with christianity or the bible, try reading them sometime. They were purely secular legal documents.

 

[ABM]

I like that idea. Almost makes me want to learn more about Christianity....

Mags is right. Very cool stuff.....God's Grace, that is.....being a free gift to those who choose (most certainly not able to earn) it.

As Romans 3:20-25 relates.....

And it’s clear enough, isn’t it, that we’re sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God’s revelation doesn’t put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else’s sin.

God Has Set Things Right

21-24 But in our time something new has been added. What Moses and the prophets witnessed to all those years has happened. The God-setting-things-right that we read about has become Jesus-setting-things-right for us. And not only for us, but for everyone who believes in him. For there is no difference between us and them in this. Since we’ve compiled this long and sorry record as sinners (both us and them) and proved that we are utterly incapable of living the glorious lives God wills for us, God did it for us. Out of sheer generosity he put us in right standing with himself. A pure gift. He got us out of the mess we’re in and restored us to where he always wanted us to be. And he did it by means of Jesus Christ.

25-26 God sacrificed Jesus on the altar of the world to clear that world of sin. Having faith in him sets us in the clear. God decided on this course of action in full view of the public—to set the world in the clear with himself through the sacrifice of Jesus, finally taking care of the sins he had so patiently endured. This is not only clear, but it’s now—this is current history! God sets things right. He also makes it possible for us to live in his rightness.

 

[crowTrobot]

Science, while a great method man has developed for studying his world and universe, has no way of getting at this problem since it invoves things that simply can't be inspected or tested. We can look at our universe and say that it most likely began with a big bang from a single point 14 or so billions years ago, but as to the causality...god or a natural process outside of our reality...there's no test that can exist or will ever exist to deal with that question.

Similarly, the questions as to how and why life should exist are unlikely to be resolvable by scientific study.

you are being quite presumptuous here. given the exponential nature of the technological revolution, for all you know a few hundred years from now scientists will be designing and creating universes and life in labs.

I appreciate your points about harmonious discussion, but at the same time I'm really bugged by all the god-of-the-gaps arguments every theist here invariably falls back on when discussing scientific topics. The fact that we don't currently know something does not make the answer a matter of personal philosophy. It just means we don't know, and there's nothing wrong with that. Lack of knowledge does not validate and shouldn't be used to enable theism.

 

[magnifier661]

you are being quite presumptuous here. given the exponential nature of the technological revolution, for all you know a few hundred years from now scientists will be designing and creating universes and life in labs.

I appreciate your points about harmonious discussion, but at the same time I'm really bugged by all the god-of-the-gaps arguments every theist here invariably falls back on when discussing scientific topics. The fact that we don't currently know something does not make the answer a matter of personal philosophy. It just means we don't know, and there's nothing wrong with that. Lack of knowledge does not validate and shouldn't be used to enable theism.

I think it's presumptuous of you to assume that you can believe in something that hasn't been observed; yet you claim our beliefs aren't valid because we can't observe God.

 

[magnifier661]

I like that idea. Almost makes me want to learn more about Christianity. It's when people start saying you will go to hell unless you do this, that turns me off about the whole thing and why I probably haven't seriously considered learning about it (my rebellious side).

In my mind, I know I'm a good person. If there is a heaven and hell, I can't believe it comes down to if you followed a certain belief or believe in something or not. This idea that you will go to hell if you don't do A, B and C seems so silly to me. Also, I suspect being a biology major in college has really shaped a lot of what I believe . . . for better or for worse.

You should look into it man. I think understanding the true meaning of grace is good for every person. Ultimate forgiveness. Something I think religions and atheists aren't too familiar with.

This is why I get frustrated about preaching from certain groups. Saying things like; "you are dammed to hell because you don't follow the rules".

Problem; none of us can follow the rules. Isn't it wonderful to know that God actually knows this and that's why he came and gave his life for us? So we won't have to live in doubt anymore? That now we can stop dying and start living again?

 

[crowTrobot]

I think it's presumptuous of you to assume that you can believe in something that hasn't been observed; yet you claim our beliefs aren't valid because we can't observe God.

I don't believe anything. I'm being honest and admitting that I don't know. You are not.

 

[magnifier661]

Getting back to "who is Jesus"?

Jesus was a man that was of God. He lived on this earth and experienced all the temptations you and I have on a daily basis. Instead of giving into his flesh; he chose to live a sin free life; knowing that one day everyone close to him and all the people he is working for will spit on him and renounce him to save their flesh.

He spread a teaching that the old laws of the world are those that will bring failure. That people living by law will never be able to live or feel peace. That through him; all will be just as perfect as him if they just accept him. No matter who you are, what terrible things you've done, what terrible things you will do; you will be forgiven.

Your life now has purpose and your focus isn't on the negativity of the world but of the spreading of mercy, grace, love, compassion, and purpose. That we all can keep our head up high because now we are of Christ.

That a man that did no wrong was accused of wrong. That a man that had to power to move mountains, allowed the weak to torture him, mock him and kill him for the greater good of mankind. (Reminds me of the scene in "man of steel" where they handcuff him and he walks with them).

But the greatest thing about Jesus Christ is knowing that I was on his mind when he was on that cross. That he knew about the good in us. That he has hope for mankind. That we are perfect in his eyes.

 

[magnifier661]

I don't believe anything. I'm being honest and admitting that I don't know. You are not.

Wow that seems like a promising life! Good for you. So you are like a crab that moves side to side but never forward?

Then if you meet up with God, you can be the man that says "God I hid my talent because I know what you truly expect of me. I gave your talent back because I don't want to be accountable for that you wanted from me"

 

[crowTrobot]

Wow that seems like a promising life! Good for you. So you are like a crab that moves side to side but never forward?

Then if you meet up with God, you can be the man that says "God I hid my talent because I know what you truly expect of me. I gave your talent back because I don't want to be accountable for that you wanted from me"

nice sermon

 

[magnifier661]

nice sermon

It was a great sermon by a great man. The perfect man.

 

[e_blazer]

you are being quite presumptuous here. given the exponential nature of the technological revolution, for all you know a few hundred years from now scientists will be designing and creating universes and life in labs.

I'm not being presumptuous in the least. If, in the unlikely future you pose scientists are able to create universes and life in their labs, it still wouldn't change the fact that for the lifeforms living inside these new universes it would be unknowable and untestable as to what outside factors caused their new universe to exist and resulted in the creation of life within it.

I appreciate your points about harmonious discussion, but at the same time I'm really bugged by all the god-of-the-gaps arguments every theist here invariably falls back on when discussing scientific topics. The fact that we don't currently know something does not make the answer a matter of personal philosophy. It just means we don't know, and there's nothing wrong with that. Lack of knowledge does not validate and shouldn't be used to enable theism.

And exactly how does the "God of the gaps" issue differ from the "science of the gaps" issue? We don't know something now, but we may know it in the future is not exactly an argument from logic. Saying that "lack of knowledge does not validate and shouldn't be used to enable theism" is no more valid than saying "lack of knowledge does not validate and shouldn't be used to enable atheism." My decision to believe that there is a creator is based upon a lot of factors. I think that there is simply too much order to the universe to deny that it is designed. I think that the amount of basic information required for life to come into existance points to an intelligent designer. I fully admit that a decision regarding these matters is ultimately based upon what we call faith. I don't see that the atheist point of view on these topics is anything other than that either.

 

[e_blazer]

Excellent post, I agree with some and not other parts, but thought it was interesting, fair and honest. Repped.

There are just a couple points I want to make. You may feel that Christianity is not us vs them, and I suppose for many many Christians they are not adversarial in that way. I painted with too broad a brush. I personally have felt many times that my lack of accepting of Christ had made me "the other" and history has born out that the us vs them track has come into play many times. But, I have also felt accepted and loved by believers so I know some do truly act in an all-accepting way. I also know that there are atheists who also create a divide and perpetuate the us vs them mentality. I personally try not to act hat way, though I do enjoy discussing these topics.

Christians are people and people by nature are messed up. Churches foul things up constantly. I don't disagree with you that many Christians can come across as judgemental and off-putting to those who don't believe as they do. What I am saying is that is NOT what Jesus was about. He chose to live among and interact with the outcasts of Jewish society...prostitutes, tax collectors, the poor, gentiles (people from non-Jewish backgrounds). He told his followers that they should be very careful not to judge others lest they in turn face judgement for their sins. I believe that there are a whole lot of Christians who are going to have a seriously uncomfortable time when they come face to face with Jesus after their deaths.

The other part I wanted to touch on, I have stated several times here and it has been attacked more by the atheists than the Christians. I have no problem with people like you or Mags saying you see god in the areas that science can't reach. Did god create the Big Bang and set forth the laws and conditions to create the scenario that will lead to life? I don't think so, but if that is your stance I'm fine with that. My issue is where religion contradicts the known. The age of the earth is an example of that.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God and that it exists in the form it does for His purposes. I also believe that our understanding of those purposes is and what exactly is being said is full of human error. What parts of the Bible are meant to be historical and what parts are meant to be more allegorical or poetic? What points that are made are true for the specific time and circumstances being presented and which are true more generally and meant to be applied to all people? These issues are something that people of faith look at and discuss all the time. Some Christians have looked at the geneologies presented in the Bible and have determined that the age of the earth is only a few thousand years. But, were those passages intended to be a literal timeline of history or were they intended, as I believe, to be more of a general statement establishing Christ in the history of Israel and showing his royal lineage, but not literally showing every generation since the dawn of time? When Genesis uses the term "days" to describe the periods of God's creation, is it meant to be literally earth days or were they simply 7 slices of a vision that God gave to Moses or whoever actually wrote the book of Genesis? The opinions that you hear some Christians give on these points and the age of the universe and Earth are not articles of faith. I didn't sign on as a Christian to accept a level of understanding of the cosmos as it was viewed several thousand years ago. Scientific knowledge shows that early understandings of what the Bible was saying were flawed. That doesn't mean that the basic message of Genesis, that God created the universe and man, that he wants to have a relationship with us, etc. is flawed.

As far as this thread, I started it because I was interested in understanding how Christians think about something specific. I have no idea if there was a man Jesus, I don't care. What still has not been answered and was the point of the thread, I want to know how people can believe in the biblical Jesus when almost every story about his birth, life and death can be attribute to earlier works? Do people not believe the earlier works, do they believe those works are false, do they just not allow themselves to contemplate the conundrum, how do Christians deal with belief when juxtaposed with the knowable when the knowable throws in a monkey wrench?

Your question about the impact of earlier pagan religions on the validity of Jesus is an interesting one. I'll admit that I haven't studied this issue. I do know that it has been raised by those seeking to discredit Jesus as nothing more than a knockoff of those earlier pagan religions. I suspect that they overstate their case, but let's assume that they're correct and that most of the stories about Jesus's miracles have similar elements to things found in stories of pagan gods. Jesus, living in the time he did, would certainly have knowledge of the pagan religions of his day. It seems likely to me that he might choose to do similar miracles for the purpose of showing that he actually was God living in human form. Your pagan god is said to have walked on water? Here's how it's actually done.

 

[crowTrobot]

I'm not being presumptuous in the least. If, in the unlikely future you pose scientists are able to create universes and life in their labs, it still wouldn't change the fact that for the lifeforms living inside these new universes it would be unknowable and untestable as to what outside factors caused their new universe to exist and resulted in the creation of life within it.

but in that case we would know god is not required, nor even a likely reason for our particular universe or life on earth to exist.

Saying that "lack of knowledge does not validate and shouldn't be used to enable theism" is no more valid than saying "lack of knowledge does not validate and shouldn't be used to enable atheism."

I don't know what your definition of atheism is, but lack of knowledge enables agnosticism by definition. I'm agnostic concerning origins.

My decision to believe that there is a creator is based upon a lot of factors. I think that there is simply too much order to the universe to deny that it is designed. I think that the amount of basic information required for life to come into existance points to an intelligent designer.

Mags would not have noticed because he's too caught up pigeonholing me, but I never "deny" that the universe was designed. It may be true. Again though, it reduces to a gap argument because we don't have the information necessary to determine what the universe is capable of naturally. There may be other natural god-free reasons for the order we see. Evolution has taught us that much.

I fully admit that a decision regarding these matters is ultimately based upon what we call faith. I don't see that the atheist point of view on these topics is anything other than that either.

it doesn't require faith to not believe in something.

 

[magnifier661]

Christians are people and people by nature are messed up. Churches foul things up constantly. I don't disagree with you that many Christians can come across as judgemental and off-putting to those who don't believe as they do. What I am saying is that is NOT what Jesus was about. He chose to live among and interact with the outcasts of Jewish society...prostitutes, tax collectors, the poor, gentiles (people from non-Jewish backgrounds). He told his followers that they should be very careful not to judge others lest they in turn face judgement for their sins. I believe that there are a whole lot of Christians who are going to have a seriously uncomfortable time when they come face to face with Jesus after their deaths.

Exactly!!!! If people actually paid attention to the stories of when Christ lived on this planet; they would know the "judgmental portion" was hardly the case. I would guess that 99% of his preaching was about grace, love and forgiveness. Accepting the beauty of humanity and why God loves us.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God and that it exists in the form it does for His purposes. I also believe that our understanding of those purposes is and what exactly is being said is full of human error. What parts of the Bible are meant to be historical and what parts are meant to be more allegorical or poetic? What points that are made are true for the specific time and circumstances being presented and which are true more generally and meant to be applied to all people? These issues are something that people of faith look at and discuss all the time. Some Christians have looked at the geneologies presented in the Bible and have determined that the age of the earth is only a few thousand years. But, were those passages intended to be a literal timeline of history or were they intended, as I believe, to be more of a general statement establishing Christ in the history of Israel and showing his royal lineage, but not literally showing every generation since the dawn of time? When Genesis uses the term "days" to describe the periods of God's creation, is it meant to be literally earth days or were they simply 7 slices of a vision that God gave to Moses or whoever actually wrote the book of Genesis? The opinions that you hear some Christians give on these points and the age of the universe and Earth are not articles of faith. I didn't sign on as a Christian to accept a level of understanding of the cosmos as it was viewed several thousand years ago. Scientific knowledge shows that early understandings of what the Bible was saying were flawed. That doesn't mean that the basic message of Genesis, that God created the universe and man, that he wants to have a relationship with us, etc. is flawed.

So well said! Good for you! repp'd

Your question about the impact of earlier pagan religions on the validity of Jesus is an interesting one. I'll admit that I haven't studied this issue. I do know that it has been raised by those seeking to discredit Jesus as nothing more than a knockoff of those earlier pagan religions. I suspect that they overstate their case, but let's assume that they're correct and that most of the stories about Jesus's miracles have similar elements to things found in stories of pagan gods. Jesus, living in the time he did, would certainly have knowledge of the pagan religions of his day. It seems likely to me that he might choose to do similar miracles for the purpose of showing that he actually was God living in human form. Your pagan god is said to have walked on water? Here's how it's actually done.

LOL! Nice way of interpreting it! But most of those pagan similarities were amended after Christianity became wide spread. Those God's existed before Christ, but the stories of "walking on water, virgin birth, etc" all came after Christianity was relevant.

 

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Mags would not have noticed because he's too caught up pigeonholing me, but I never "deny" that the universe was designed. It may be true. Again though, it reduces to a gap argument because we don't have the information necessary to determine what the universe is capable of naturally. There may be other natural god-free reasons for the order we see. Evolution has taught us that much.

You may see it as "pigeon holing" i see it as knowing your arguments for well over a couple years. You say the same thing, then when it becomes too hard to explain; you go agnostic and play the "science of the gaps" card.

If you don't know and advertise you live without faith; then stop trying to explain things, using scientific philosophy as a reference. That is no better than one with Christian faith, using verses in the Bible to support their belief.