Wow, McCain Finally Gets A Hit

[Denny Crane]

His answer is to help students with their college loans.

Gimme a break.

But he opposes vouchers, which is basically the same thing as helping students with college loans.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Did we have a problem with the Clinton tax rates during the Clinton years?

I don't know, you tell me. Were taxes flat? If no, then he was punishing success as well.

 

[Denny Crane]

Did we have a problem with the Clinton tax rates during the Clinton years?

Yes.

The NASDAQ crashed in 2000, dropping 35% in 3 months starting on April 14th (day before tax day).

 

[Jurassic]

But he opposes vouchers, which is basically the same thing as helping students with college loans.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

Although I don't know why the debate is taking this route, I would like to think that McCain could come up with something better to attack him on. Sure its an economy issue, but not the most relevant one.

 

[Minstrel]

But he opposes vouchers, which is basically the same thing as helping students with college loans.

Vouchers are simply an attempt to privatize education. Stop funding public schools and give the children of working class families vouchers that won't cover private school tuitions. Good way to take education away from those who can't afford private schools.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Vouchers are simply an attempt to privatize education. Stop funding public schools and give the children of working class families vouchers that won't cover private school tuitions. Good way to take education away from those who can't afford private schools.

Yes, because public schools are fan-tastic!

 

[Denny Crane]

Vouchers are simply an attempt to privatize education. Stop funding public schools and give the children of working class families vouchers that won't cover private school tuitions. Good way to take education away from those who can't afford private schools.

So your argument is fuck the kids, the system is all that matters.

Vouchers good ONLY for public school choice would be a huge change for the better.

 

[Minstrel]

Yes, because public schools are fan-tastic!

What's the relevance? They largely suck, but it's superior to children of poor families receiveing no education at all. Education needs to be overhauled, not simply have the children of poor families dumped.

 

[Денг Гордон]

I don't know, you tell me. Were taxes flat? If no, then he was punishing success as well.

The problem is greed. If we taxed everyone 20%, the people at the bottom would be hit hard. We need to have a graduated tax system, because frankly, those who can pay more, should pay more. But we need to have a progressive system, where the tax rate is calculated by a formula. That way we can work on eliminating situations where people will try to stay under a certain tax bracket.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

So your argument is fuck the kids, the system is all that matters.

Vouchers good ONLY for public school choice would be a huge change for the better.

The funny thing is, with a cascading tax system, I don't feel bad about poor schools in bad neighborhoods. Rich people = pay higher percentage, get better schools. Poor people = get handouts and lower tax rates, get shit schools.

Kind of infinite justice.

 

[Jurassic]

So your argument is fuck the kids, the system is all that matters.

No that's John McCain's platform!



JK.

 

[Minstrel]

So your argument is fuck the kids, the system is all that matters..

That's the opposite of what I said. I pointed out that vouchers are simply a way to dump children of poor families from education. Therefore, opposing vouchers is an argument in the interest of children.

There are still private schools for those who wish to pay for them and can afford them.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

What's the relevance? They largely suck, but it's superior to children of poor families receiveing no education at all. Education needs to be overhauled, not simply have the children of poor families dumped.

Yes, because school vouchers will make poor children receive no education whatsoever. Choice of schools and a voucher system is an overhaul. Unless you want to keep things as they are.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

That's the opposite of what I said. I pointed out that vouchers are simply a way to dump children of poor families from education. Therefore, opposing vouchers is an argument in the interest of children.

There are still private schools for those who wish to pay for them and can afford them.

Yes, they'll end up in orphanages eating GRUEL. There are a host of private school options. they are not all expensive....a voucher system can fund new private school ventures.

 

[Jurassic]

The funny thing is, with a cascading tax system, I don't feel bad about poor schools in bad neighborhoods. Rich people = pay higher percentage, get better schools. Poor people = get handouts and lower tax rates, get shit schools.

Kind of infinite justice.

You can't honestly believe that.

How does getting lower taxes compensate for a shitty education? That causes an endless cycle of poverty.

 

[Minstrel]

Yes, because school vouchers will make poor children receive no education whatsoever.

When the vouchers don't cover private school tuition and public schools are phased out, that is indeed the result.

 

[Денг Гордон]

Lets not pretend that you can't get a good education at a public school. I went to a public school that was labeled failing, based on the test scores. I think I got a fine education. The teachers did a fine job teaching, even if we were using a bit outdated textbooks. Vouchers are not going to make students stop skipping school. Vouchers are not going to make students do their homework. That has to come from primarily the student and to a lesser extent their parents.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

The problem is greed. If we taxed everyone 20%, the people at the bottom would be hit hard. We need to have a graduated tax system, because frankly, those who can pay more, should pay more. But we need to have a progressive system, where the tax rate is calculated by a formula. That way we can work on eliminating situations where people will try to stay under a certain tax bracket.

I don't care if the people at the bottom get hit hard. It should be an equal system. They'll work harder to get more money. Every gets taxed at the same rate, the rich pay more, the poor pay less as a total amount. Maybe not compared to now, but at least it does not reward mediocrity.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

When the vouchers don't cover private school tuition and public schools are phased out, that is indeed the result.

The vouchers will cover a school where the parents can choose from a host of options. What is this, 19th century England? please.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Lets not pretend that you can't get a good education at a public school. I went to a public school that was labeled failing, based on the test scores. I think I got a fine education. The teachers did a fine job teaching, even if we were using a bit outdated textbooks. Vouchers are not going to make students stop skipping school. Vouchers are not going to make students do their homework. That has to come from primarily the student and to a lesser extent their parents.

I agree. I believe that school should not be mandatory. Allied trade schools to learn real skills, not shit they won't ever use. They should be ultracompetative environments like in India and Japan.

 

[44Thrilla]

Best line of all the debates so far: "Senator Obama, I'm not President Bush. If you wanted to run against President Bush, you should have run 4 years ago."

 

[Denny Crane]

That's the opposite of what I said. I pointed out that vouchers are simply a way to dump children of poor families from education. Therefore, opposing vouchers is an argument in the interest of children.

There are still private schools for those who wish to pay for them and can afford them.

Scare tactics.

Vouchers are what 9000 poor people line up for when there's 1000 vouchers available. They want OUT of your pet system.

 

[Denny Crane]

When the vouchers don't cover private school tuition and public schools are phased out, that is indeed the result.

This makes no sense.

They spend $10K/student in the public schools. It costs $5K/student in a Catholic school where almost all the kids graduate and actually learn to read (as opposed to age appropriate sex education).

 

[Minstrel]

The vouchers will cover a school where the parents can choose from a host of options. What is this, 19th century England? please.

I'm not sure why you feel this is invoking Oliver Twist. In every era, including the current one, privatized systems price a number of people out of services. For some services, that's fine. Not everyone should be able to eat in fine restaurants or buy pricey cars, if they can't afford it. Some services many of us consider essential, like education and health care. Those should definitely be socialized, in my opinion, so that everyone has access to them.

 

[rocketeer]

If we taxed everyone 20%, the people at the bottom would be hit hard. We need to have a graduated tax system, because frankly, those who can pay more, should pay more.

really now? people who can pay more, should pay more?

come on.

 

[Денг Гордон]

I don't care if the people at the bottom get hit hard. It should be an equal system. They'll work harder to get more money.

I agree we shouldn't steal money from the rich and give it directly to the poor. But I do believe, as a society, we have a moral obligation to provide for people when times are hard. I think we have a moral obligation to help people with their health problems.

My dad worked his way through college, and worked for 35 years. In the past year, he has lost his house, lost his job, and is living in a homeless shelter all because the health insurance company refused to pay for his treatment, even though it was covered in his health insurance plan.

You are not going to convince me that that's fair. Obama is providing the right plans to help fundamentally strengthen America. You can work hard for all your life and end up not having anything to show for all your hard work.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

I'm not sure why you feel this is invoking Oliver Twist. In every era, including the current one, privatized systems price a number of people out of services. For some services, that's fine. Not everyone should be able to eat in fine restaurants or buy pricey cars, if they can't afford it. Some services many of us consider essential, like education and health care. Those should definitely be socialized, in my opinion, so that everyone has access to them.

You do realize a voucher pays for things, right? That's the whole purpose of "the voucher system". Sure, the poorest of poor may not be able to afford the top notch private school...but it could certainly level the playing field for an average middle class family who wants to send their child to a private school that is a step above what they are currently sending him/her to.

And even the poor will be able to step up and get into a better school.

In my opinion, many of the schools are nothing more than glorified babysitting services. When you bring CHOICE into the picture and a real stake in a child's education rather than some "free shit to pass the time while the parent's are working", it becomes more valuable.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

really now? people who can pay more, should pay more?

come on.

Don't you know, its patriotic to do so. Everyone who eats at a nice restaurant should give their appetizers to people at fast food establishments!!

 

[Denny Crane]

Simply amazing. They give vouchers to students to go to Notre Dame and the same people who oppose K-12 vouchers applaud that.

On the other topic, if they're going to redistribute wealth then they should just do it. Tax the rich, write a check to the poor. Cut out all the govt. bullshit layers in between.

 

[Jurassic]

I agree we shouldn't steal money from the rich and give it directly to the poor. But I do believe, as a society, we have a moral obligation to provide for people when times are hard. I think we have a moral obligation to help people with their health problems.

Where does it end though?

An illegal immigrant who lives and works here can be denied all of these things even in an emergency, yet the work that they do stimulates the economy. There is a lot of gray area on this issue.