Zach Collins and his return to the Blazers: ‘I’m definitely not rushing back’

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That article doesn’t speak well for the Blazers medical and conditioning staff. Too much load too soon after the first ankle surgery.
 
tlongII said:
That article doesn’t speak well for the Blazers medical and conditioning staff. Too much load too soon after the first ankle surgery.
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Hmmmm where have I seen this before? It's almost like it's Deja Vu.
 
Bigs feet and ankles always take a beating in basketball but the guys who play above the rim always has the worst results...weight coming down from higher up on the joints....it's why Zach Randolph, Enes Kanter and Paul Milsap or Lamarcus Aldridge have long careers...they don't play highlight reel ball...and those injuries are so common in sports it's hardly a medical staff case of negligence...it's wear and tear. I quit the long jump in high school track because it was messing with my heels and that was hurting my long distance running ability....I ran the mile as my first track sport...won the state district gold medal my freshman year with a 4:36 mile...my best time
 
Natebishop3 said:
We need to dump this guy. This is not the time for diamond hands. Zach Collins isn't going to the moon.
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SlyPokerDog said:
Reddit Wall Street Bets slang, Diamond Hands means hold the stock, don't sell.
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I didn't know you're from the 'hood!

riverman said:
I quit the long jump in high school track because it was messing with my heels and that was hurting my long distance running ability....I ran the mile as my first track sport...won the state district gold medal my freshman year with a 4:36 mile...my best time
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It's all been downhill since then. I didn't know you're Ed Bundy!
 
calvin natt said:
If Meyers Leonard can roll out of bed and keep getting $10M a year contracts, Zach is going to get more than the minimum or close to it, and more than one year. I think he'll probably be healthy this summer, be doing workouts, film it like everyone else to show how hard workign they are, his agent will talk to teams and they will offer him a decent deal. Portland probably will low ball him, and he will leave.
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As much as everyone liked to bust on Meyers, over his career he's been statistically better that Zach in almost every way, even in advanced metrics, and it's not even particularly close. Most of all, Meyers shoots about considerably better from 3 and from the line.

Additionally, while he's had his share of injuries, it's not on Zach's level, and Meyers has shown himself to be a guy who is a positive influence to his team even if he's not playing.
 
PCmor7 said:
As much as everyone liked to bust on Meyers, over his career he's been statistically better that Zach in almost every way, even in advanced metrics, and it's not even particularly close. Most of all, Meyers shoots about considerably better from 3 and from the line.

Additionally, while he's had his share of injuries, it's not on Zach's level, and Meyers has shown himself to be a guy who is a positive influence to his team even if he's not playing.
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By their age 22 season Zach has higher rebounding, scoring and assist averages than Meyers. For his career he averages more steals and blocks. I’m not sure ive ever heard Zach isn’t good with teammates and the locker room. Zach in his career is 32% from 3, meyers 39%. That is essentially the only metric he has an advantage over ZC. Not sure what you’re talking about.
 
calvin natt said:
By their age 22 season Zach has higher rebounding, scoring and assist averages than Meyers.
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when Meyers was 22, he had a 15.8% rebound rate, Zach's best is 12.7%. Meyers scored 19.7 points/100-possesions; Zach's best was 18.3
 
calvin natt said:
By their age 22 season Zach has higher rebounding, scoring and assist averages than Meyers. For his career he averages more steals and blocks. I’m not sure ive ever heard Zach isn’t good with teammates and the locker room. Zach in his career is 32% from 3, meyers 39%. That is essentially the only metric he has an advantage over ZC. Not sure what you’re talking about.
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I didn't say Zach wasn't good with teammates and the locker room. I said Meyers was a positive influence. You always see Meyers encouraging the team, talking to the younger guys. Saying Meyers is better than Zach in that respect isn't a knock on Zach unless maybe you think giving Meyers his due in any capacity is a shot at Collins.

Meyers was the guy who always could agitate players on the other team, get in their heads, get them off their game. Zach who always is losing control of his emotions, making a mistake and compounding it with a silly foul.

Anyway, going back to the original point, the numbers don't support that Zach is a much superior player to Meyers and would command a bigger contract, not even considering the injuries.
 
PCmor7 said:
I didn't say Zach wasn't good with teammates and the locker room. I said Meyers was a positive influence. You always see Meyers encouraging the team, talking to the younger guys. Saying Meyers is better than Zach in that respect isn't a knock on Zach unless maybe you think giving Meyers his due in any capacity is a shot at Collins.

Meyers was the guy who always could agitate players on the other team, get in their heads, get them off their game. Zach who always is losing control of his emotions, making a mistake and compounding it with a silly foul.

Anyway, going back to the original point, the numbers don't support that Zach is a much superior player to Meyers and would command a bigger contract, not even considering the injuries.
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And I don’t think these guys need cheerleaders. Everyone liked Meyers sure. He didn’t make a difference. I didn’t say Zach would get a bigger contract. I said he’s going to get more than some minimum one year deal like someone said. I think teams will be more excited about Zach than Meyers and Meyers keeps getting 10m a year
 
calvin natt said:
By their age 22 season Zach has higher rebounding, scoring and assist averages than Meyers. For his career he averages more steals and blocks. I’m not sure ive ever heard Zach isn’t good with teammates and the locker room. Zach in his career is 32% from 3, meyers 39%. That is essentially the only metric he has an advantage over ZC. Not sure what you’re talking about.
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You need to look at the stats. You really need to look at the stats.

Scoring average ... advantage Meyers. Rebounding per 36 minutes ... advantage Meyers. Turnovers ... advantage Meyers. Offensive rating ... advantage Meyers. Defensive rating ... advantage Meyers. PER ... advantage Meyers. VORP ... advantage Meyers. 3-point and FT shooting ... big advantage Meyers. True shooting percentage ... advantage Meyers (along with basically every shooting metric that extends from that).
 
PCmor7 said:
I didn't say Zach wasn't good with teammates and the locker room. I said Meyers was a positive influence. You always see Meyers encouraging the team, talking to the younger guys. Saying Meyers is better than Zach in that respect isn't a knock on Zach unless maybe you think giving Meyers his due in any capacity is a shot at Collins.

Meyers was the guy who always could agitate players on the other team, get in their heads, get them off their game. Zach who always is losing control of his emotions, making a mistake and compounding it with a silly foul.

Anyway, going back to the original point, the numbers don't support that Zach is a much superior player to Meyers and would command a bigger contract, not even considering the injuries.
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The fact is that metrics have never told the story of Meyers Leonard. Meyers just doesn't get the game. He looks lost out there 90% of the time. You can't say the same thing about Zach. Zach has his flaws, he has bad hands, he is too agressive and gets into foul trouble but he understands what he's supposed to be doing and where he's supposed to be on both ends of the court.

So yeah when you look at advanced metrics they may favor Meyers but Meyers didn't play against the first string as much as Zach has and Meyers didn't earn the PT Zach has. Meyers was more healthy than Zach has been and hits threes at a ridiculous rate but there is something to be said for not being completely lost all of the time. Obviously you can say that the best ability is availability but I didn't really always feel that way when Meyers was on the floor.
 
calvin natt said:
And I don’t think these guys need cheerleaders. Everyone liked Meyers sure. He didn’t make a difference. I didn’t say Zach would get a bigger contract. I said he’s going to get more than some minimum one year deal like someone said. I think teams will be more excited about Zach than Meyers and Meyers keeps getting 10m a year
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Having a guy who you can count on in the locker room makes a guy more valuable. If you don't know that, go into any workplace or environment where people aren't supportive.

You put down Meyers as a way to argue that Zach would get more than a minimum because Meyers got $10 mil. Basically, the inference ... and you keep making it ... is that Meyers was garbage. If he was, then what the heck is Zach? I mean, you can't even justify your argument by saying Zach was a lottery pick because, guess what, Meyers was picked 11th.

Your point might have merit. It takes one team to love Zach and overpay. That doesn't justify bashing a guy who hasn't played here for two years who despite his limitations gave his all and never gave the Blazers a black eye. You could have made your point without the shot at Meyers, but worse, you tried to make your point by creating a narrative based on your subjective ideas when the objective statistics tell a dramatically different story.
 
blazerkor said:
The fact is that metrics have never told the story of Meyers Leonard. Meyers just doesn't get the game. He looks lost out there 90% of the time. You can't say the same thing about Zach. Zach has his flaws, he has bad hands, he is too agressive and gets into foul trouble but he understands what he's supposed to be doing and where he's supposed to be on both ends of the court.

So yeah when you look at advanced metrics they may favor Meyers but Meyers didn't play against the first string as much as Zach has and Meyers didn't earn the PT Zach has. Meyers was more healthy than Zach has been and hits threes at a ridiculous rate but there is something to be said for not being completely lost all of the time. Obviously you can say that the best ability is availability but I didn't really always feel that way when Meyers was on the floor.
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A lot of your post is fair and I can't really disagree with it.

Calvinnatt was making a direct comparison between two players, though, and it was an awful comparison in addition to being an unnecessary one. Your feeling he looked lost doesn't make him worth less than Zach. You not feeling confident in him does not make him worth less than Zach. Objectively, he was superior to Zach. And you can try to say "well, he played against the other team's scrubs." I seem to recall him scoring 30 in a playoff game, scoring nearly 30 another time against the Warriors when we needed someone to step up. Zach's never even scored 20 in a regular-season game.
 
PCmor7 said:
You need to look at the stats. You really need to look at the stats.

Scoring average ... advantage Meyers. Rebounding per 36 minutes ... advantage Meyers. Turnovers ... advantage Meyers. Offensive rating ... advantage Meyers. Defensive rating ... advantage Meyers. PER ... advantage Meyers. VORP ... advantage Meyers. 3-point and FT shooting ... big advantage Meyers. True shooting percentage ... advantage Meyers (along with basically every shooting metric that extends from that).
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OK lets look at stats. Tell me who is heading in the right direction.

Age 20
ZC 4.04 ppg, 3.3 rpg, .8 apg .5 bpg
ML 5.5 ppg, 3.7 rpg .5 apg .6 bpg

Age 21
ZC 6.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 1 apg, 1 bpg
ML 2.5 ppg, 2.8 rpg, ..5 apg, .1 bpg (.1 not 1)

Age 22
ZC 7 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.5 apg, .5 bpg
ML 5.9 ppg, 4.5 rpg, .6 apg, .4 bpg

Please tell me what stats I need to look at again. And should we even start with defense, of which ML has absolutely no clue whatsoever how to play?
 
PCmor7 said:
A lot of your post is fair and I can't really disagree with it.

Calvinnatt was making a direct comparison between two players, though, and it was an awful comparison in addition to being an unnecessary one. Your feeling he looked lost doesn't make him worth less than Zach. You not feeling confident in him does not make him worth less than Zach. Objectively, he was superior to Zach. And you can try to say "well, he played against the other team's scrubs." I seem to recall him scoring 30 in a playoff game, scoring nearly 30 another time against the Warriors when we needed someone to step up. Zach's never even scored 20 in a regular-season game.
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How is it an awful comparison? How on earth was Meyers first three years better than Zachs? You can brush aside him being lost half the time (he was), or that he rarely played vs starters (he didnt) or that people didnt have confidence in him (they didnt), but those are major factors.
 
Meyers suck balls.
If the metrics say he's better than Zack, then the metrics are not appropriate.
Meyers made and makes horrible decisions.
He has no feel for the game.
He was, and is, overpriced trash, which is why everyone hates him. Pay Collins $25 mil/year, and I'll hate him, too.
He's a good guy, but I can get a good locker room guy for vet min, easy.

Why are we even discussing this?
 
Wizard Mentor said:
Meyers suck balls.
If the metrics say he's better than Zack, then the metrics are not appropriate.
Meyers made and makes horrible decisions.
He has no feel for the game.
He was, and is, overpriced trash, which is why everyone hates him. Pay Collins $25 mil/year, and I'll hate him, too.
He's a good guy, but I can get a good locker room guy for vet min, easy.

Why are we even discussing this?
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It’s dumb.
 
More likely Zach will sign the Qualify offer. Will assume that he will have very good season and get bigger and longer contract.
 
PCmor7 said:
I didn't say Zach wasn't good with teammates and the locker room. I said Meyers was a positive influence. You always see Meyers encouraging the team, talking to the younger guys. Saying Meyers is better than Zach in that respect isn't a knock on Zach unless maybe you think giving Meyers his due in any capacity is a shot at Collins.

Meyers was the guy who always could agitate players on the other team, get in their heads, get them off their game. Zach who always is losing control of his emotions, making a mistake and compounding it with a silly foul.

Anyway, going back to the original point, the numbers don't support that Zach is a much superior player to Meyers and would command a bigger contract, not even considering the injuries.
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The numbers may not but the eye test does. I’d mostly cringe when Meyers was playing. Generally not so with Zach.
 
neil the type of guy to find out he's being cheated on and will 'try work it out' and will understand if the cheating needs to continue.

he cant, he wont, and he dont stop.
 
calvin natt said:
Maybe zachs higher averages are because he played more because he wasn’t dogshit at that age like Meyers
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are you talking about Zach last season? That's when he was 22

no need to get defensive about it. You were talking about raw stats. I added a little context. Relax

personally, I think Zach will end up a better player than Meyers, assuming he can ever stay healthy. But I also don't think the gap between them will be that big
 
PCmor7 said:
A lot of your post is fair and I can't really disagree with it.

Calvinnatt was making a direct comparison between two players, though, and it was an awful comparison in addition to being an unnecessary one. Your feeling he looked lost doesn't make him worth less than Zach. You not feeling confident in him does not make him worth less than Zach. Objectively, he was superior to Zach. And you can try to say "well, he played against the other team's scrubs." I seem to recall him scoring 30 in a playoff game, scoring nearly 30 another time against the Warriors when we needed someone to step up. Zach's never even scored 20 in a regular-season game.
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I'll say this the reason why their numbers are even close and by that I mean why Zach isn't blowing Meyers out of the water is because it would click for Meyers for weeks at a time. He would start asserting himself on both ends and be a real force. Meyers has more potential than Zach and sometimes Meyers would reach it and then the rest of the time Meyers would be unplayable. Guess what, because he was young, Stotts played him when he was with it and sat his ass (like Stotts should with everyone) when Meyers was playing like he'd never played before... that just happens far too often with Meyers.

I'll end my part with this. I will bet you that if Zach can get his health together, he'll play two times the minutes in his career than Meyers does. It's because people will know what they're getting with Zach and reliability might actually be the most important ability. Due to Zach's health and Meyers's inconsistency on the floor, neither of them have been very valuable in their careers... and it's unfortunate because both of them seem like they work their asses off and have great attitudes.
 
I think the better question is: what is the biggest contract you would be ok signing Collins to?

I'd do 2 years, 10 million, incentive based, 2nd year team option. Not sure if that's allowed, but that's my number!
 
wizenheimer said:
are you talking about Zach last season? That's when he was 22

no need to get defensive about it. You were talking about raw stats. I added a little context. Relax

personally, I think Zach will end up a better player than Meyers, assuming he can ever stay healthy. But I also don't think the gap between them will be that big
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It’s annoying when the numbers guys come out with claims that somehow meyers had better numbers than Zach between the ages of 20-22. This started because someone said he’d get the minimum and I said Meyers keeps getting 10m and he was NOT better than Zach his first three years. Which he wasn’t. Fact.
 
blazerkor said:
So we're in agreement that no imaging should have been done to this point because rehab just started.
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No, we're not in agreement at all. They don't get a pass on putting off follow-up imaging because they put off rehab. There's lots of general conditioning they could have had him doing within the first two months. Within 3 weeks, they should be able to tell if it's healing, or more likely healed, properly.
 
handiman said:
No, we're not in agreement at all. They don't get a pass on putting off follow-up imaging because they put off rehab. There's lots of general conditioning they could have had him doing within the first two months. Within 3 weeks, they should be able to tell if it's healing, or more likely healed, properly.
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Oh so you are an orthopedic surgeon or a professional sports physio?
 
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