Around the NBA - July 2017 Edition (7 Viewers)

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Sarni said:
Surprise surprise, cap does not go up by $25M this year and average players are not getting $18M right, left and centre?
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Who thought average players were gonna get 18 mill? Lol

Average players are gonna get Meyers money, which was an overpay for Meyers at the time, but looks to be pretty reasonable now.
 
Destroyer of Worlds said:
What were our most common lineups?

Vonleh, Turner, Aminu were all part of them. Were they not?

Why were they part of them?

Vonleh could play 4/5 and switch on to some 3s.

Aminu could guard 2-4, but ended up guarding 1-5.

Turner could guard 1-3.

Jeremy Lin is a piss poor defender (but I'd actually like this part of the trade) because I like his game. Jeremy Lin overlaps with CJ and Damian, unlike ET, because he isn't as versatile, which greatly limits our lineups right there. Unless you plan on playing ball dominant Jeremy Lin with our ball dominant back court and being undersized at SF if you want to replace ETs versatility.

Thus, you just limited our depth and versatility quite significantly just by removing Evan Turner and his skillset. This doesn't even touch on the fact that no one we acquire replace Aminu or Vonleh, which makes us lose 2 possibly SF, 2 possible PFs, a C and a PG because those 3 players are capable of replicating the skillset of essentially six players (and not doing it as poorly as you say). Neither Davis or Collins have the skillset of Aminu or Vonleh, which is hard to replace. Collins we haven't seen at all so it's hard to say more there.

How does Jeremy Lin change any of that? What options does he give us that we don't already have? He also plays at our most crowded position, PG and SG since CJ and Dame aren't off the court much. He also will compete with Crabbe for Backup SG minutes when one of Dame/CJ is on the court being that he is too small for SF.

James Johnson could get up to 20mm/year and we have NO chance at him. PJ Tucker got 11/year and took the MLE with Houston because of His good friend, Chris Paul. We will see on Patrick Patterson.

So we get Lin, Booker and PJ tucker for Vonleh, ET, Aminu, Meyers and a 1st round pick? Talk about getting fleeced in a trade?

Dame/CJ/Crabbe/Collins/Nurk with

Vonleh, ET, Aminu

OR

Dame / CJ / Crabbe / Collins / Nurk

Lin / Tucker / Booker

Not to mention the first round pick we randomly give away.

And we still have ED and Harkless, who are better than OR nearly equivalent to Tucker and Booker.

I'd rather retain our assets than trade assets for older, similar producing players that have little room for improvement, in order to create limited cap space for a player who historically averages single digit points and rebounds and limits our rotations in a significant way, while the best player we receive in return replicates a skillset we already have and minimizes lineup flexibility and would receive limited minutes.

Better than accepting a shitty trade.
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Evan Turner hurts us on the offensive end. There's no doubt about that. He's versatile position-wise, but he's not a good offensive player. Lin is much better offensively. You overvalue versatility, and undervalue talent. Versatility doesn't equal talent.

Lin is a better defender than our guards, he's not as bad as you label him. What options does he give that we don't already have? A 3rd ball-handler that fits next to CJ or Dame. We don't have that. I could say the same thing... With all of Turner's "value" for being so versatile, what does he bring that we don't already have? Crabbe can play SG or SF, we have two players that can play PG in Dame or CJ...

Seriously though, what are you talking about??? You do realize that only one player can play only one position at once right? How the hell do we lose 6 players worth??? Sure, they can play different positions, but not at once. You can't put Turner, Aminu, and Vonleh on the court and have it equal 6 players. Even though they can cover all 5 positions with their versatility, it doesn't equal all 5 positions being covered without other pieces. The whole lineup is what matters more, not "versatility". A lineup of one-positional players that are all above average at their position is better than a lineup of multi-positional players that are below-average.

We don't need a player that can play PG, SG, and SF. We need a 3rd guard and a backup SF. We already have Harkless as a SF, with Crabbe being able to play there as well. Therefore, if you replace Turner with a 3rd guard who's better than him, you improve. It's not a negative because that play is only a 2-positional player compared to 3, because you don't need every role player to fill multiple spots. That's why you have your top 4 bench players be complimentary position-wise, and skillset wise, and we'd get that with a bench of Lin/Crabbe/Davis/Collins. Lin is a better compliment to the rest of the team because he can create for himself and others, but also spot up and shoot the 3-ball well.

How does Davis not have Vonleh's skillset? Davis can guard the 4 and the 5 just as well. Vonleh being a better defender of SFs doesn't mean anything... We shouldn't have him or Davis guarding SFs, and Vonleh will still get beat by good SFs anyway.

I was talking about examples of players we could get next year with the cap space. We could easily clear more space to go after a real difference maker by trading Crabbe with another future pick.

We replace Turner with Lin, which is an upgrade. We'd replace Aminu and Vonleh with Booker, which is also an immediate upgrade. We have enough bigs (Collins, Davis, Nurkic, Swanigan) to cover the rest of the minutes. We get rid of $17M this year and $28M-$40M next year. That's a huge positive. If we had another CJ to bring off the bench, that would be better than Turner. I don't care about Turner's awkward ass game where he can pass a little bit, defend a little bit, and score at an inefficient clip. It's not a good fit at all.

Lin's a better scorer, shooter, and passer than Turner. He's so much better, and would give us two dynamic offensive threats at PG and SG on the floor at all times. We don't need a lineup of awkward below-average unicorns.
 
Destroyer of Worlds said:
Who thought average players were gonna get 18 mill? Lol

Average players are gonna get Meyers money, which was an overpay for Meyers at the time, but looks to be pretty reasonable now.
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How does it look reasonable now??? Meyers is a fringe NBA player. I don't see any fringe NBA players getting 4 years and $40M this summer.

Nene got 3 years, $11M. He's much better than Leonard and is making 3 times less.
 
Negative on Lin that he is injured alot that would be a red flag to me.
 
Davis probably won't be traded, as he's an expiring contract next year. My guess is that Neil will let him walk, especially if the rooks play well.... UNLESS, he's used as an asset to trade ET's contract.
 
I don't see how Porter fits Randavivs "Curry Criteria"...
 
Destroyer of Worlds said:
Who thought average players were gonna get 18 mill? Lol

Average players are gonna get Meyers money, which was an overpay for Meyers at the time, but looks to be pretty reasonable now.
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Deng, Mozgov, Biyombo, Fournier, Crabbe, Turner, Mahinmi etc. got that last year. Would any of them still get similar deals this year?
 
BonesJones said:
How does it look reasonable now??? Meyers is a fringe NBA player. I don't see any fringe NBA players getting 4 years and $40M this summer.

Nene got 3 years, $11M. He's much better than Leonard and is making 3 times less.
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If Meyers ever became even *competent* offensively his contract would be a BARGAIN given what contracts are going for nowadays. Hell, if he played like he did a couple years ago (not gonna look it up to figure out the stretch in which I remember him lookin ths way) he would get this kind of money. Fact is, right or wrong, 7' somewhat athletic 3pt shooters are RARE. I bet it is actually pretty easy to move Meyers', it's pretty easy for me to believe there is a team willing to take a shot on him because 'he just needs a change of scenery'. I bet Neil just doesn't want to give up on him and face the music.
 
Destroyer of Worlds said:
If Meyers ever became even *competent* offensively his contract would be a BARGAIN given what contracts are going for nowadays. Hell, if he played like he did a couple years ago (not gonna look it up to figure out the stretch in which I remember him lookin ths way) he would get this kind of money. Fact is, right or wrong, 7' somewhat athletic 3pt shooters are RARE. I bet it is actually pretty easy to move Meyers', it's pretty easy for me to believe there is a team willing to take a shot on him because 'he just needs a change of scenery'. I bet Neil just doesn't want to give up on him and face the music.
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This. So many are just assuming no one wants our players without even considering that the resistance could very well be coming from our own side. There have been worse contracts moved than Meyers. It's not an albatross.
 
BonesJones said:
Evan Turner hurts us on the offensive end. There's no doubt about that. He's versatile position-wise, but he's not a good offensive player. Lin is much better offensively. You overvalue versatility, and undervalue talent. Versatility doesn't equal talent.

Lin is a better defender than our guards, he's not as bad as you label him. What options does he give that we don't already have? A 3rd ball-handler that fits next to CJ or Dame. We don't have that. I could say the same thing... With all of Turner's "value" for being so versatile, what does he bring that we don't already have? Crabbe can play SG or SF, we have two players that can play PG in Dame or CJ...

Seriously though, what are you talking about??? You do realize that only one player can play only one position at once right? How the hell do we lose 6 players worth??? Sure, they can play different positions, but not at once. You can't put Turner, Aminu, and Vonleh on the court and have it equal 6 players. Even though they can cover all 5 positions with their versatility, it doesn't equal all 5 positions being covered without other pieces. The whole lineup is what matters more, not "versatility". A lineup of one-positional players that are all above average at their position is better than a lineup of multi-positional players that are below-average.

We don't need a player that can play PG, SG, and SF. We need a 3rd guard and a backup SF. We already have Harkless as a SF, with Crabbe being able to play there as well. Therefore, if you replace Turner with a 3rd guard who's better than him, you improve. It's not a negative because that play is only a 2-positional player compared to 3, because you don't need every role player to fill multiple spots. That's why you have your top 4 bench players be complimentary position-wise, and skillset wise, and we'd get that with a bench of Lin/Crabbe/Davis/Collins. Lin is a better compliment to the rest of the team because he can create for himself and others, but also spot up and shoot the 3-ball well.

How does Davis not have Vonleh's skillset? Davis can guard the 4 and the 5 just as well. Vonleh being a better defender of SFs doesn't mean anything... We shouldn't have him or Davis guarding SFs, and Vonleh will still get beat by good SFs anyway.

I was talking about examples of players we could get next year with the cap space. We could easily clear more space to go after a real difference maker by trading Crabbe with another future pick.

We replace Turner with Lin, which is an upgrade. We'd replace Aminu and Vonleh with Booker, which is also an immediate upgrade. We have enough bigs (Collins, Davis, Nurkic, Swanigan) to cover the rest of the minutes. We get rid of $17M this year and $28M-$40M next year. That's a huge positive. If we had another CJ to bring off the bench, that would be better than Turner. I don't care about Turner's awkward ass game where he can pass a little bit, defend a little bit, and score at an inefficient clip. It's not a good fit at all.

Lin's a better scorer, shooter, and passer than Turner. He's so much better, and would give us two dynamic offensive threats at PG and SG on the floor at all times. We don't need a lineup of awkward below-average unicorns.
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Interesting, I stated Lin is the best player we receive yet his ONLY talent is as scoring guard; something in which we have two of already. We don't need to replicate talent we already have. We need different talent, which includes being versatile, given the scoring nature of our backcourt.

Lin cannot play alongside CJ and Damian. He could play alongside one, not the other, and that is a stretch given his aggressive-score first style, which again, we already have guards that do that. However, Evan Turner CAN play alongside CJ or Damian being that he is more likely to defer, draw and kick/dish, and he also has the size to play SF. Once again, Lin does not - LIMITING.

Interesting, have you watched the Golden State Warriors? They rely on positional versatility and 'lack of defining' positions - according to their players, coach and owner. As a matter of fact, I would disagree. You have numerous players being taken out of games because they cannot play offense, defense, OR shoot a free throw. Coaches willingly take out their best players for more rounded players when the game is on the line. The entire face of the league is based on multi-positional players, hybrids, now where it was totally different just 5 years ago with clear positions. There is a clear reason for that. Being a great big man is worthless if the other big man runs by you all game long and you get tired. Also, it's pretty simple.

Vonleh = PF/C
Evan Turner = PG, SG, SF
Aminu - SF, PF

Between these three players : Two of them play SF. 2 of them play PF. 1 Plays Center. 1 plays PG. (Although I'd probably kill myself if he actually played there) Which means they provide us lineup versatility, as if we had more players. That is why people play hybrids. Because they have the skillset of 2 players that are not easily replaceable.

Say we have Noah Vonleh and ZBO as our PFs and Nurkic as our Center. Only these players.
ZBO is a clear PF, Nurkic a clear C.
Noah is a clear PF/C hybrid.

If we traded Noah for Shaq, we would say what the fuck? Who is going to be our backup PF, right, we have 2 centers (and 1 that is 45 and overweight?) So in essence, Noah covers 2 positions (and players) with his 1 slot, because we would now have to worry about providing a QUALITY, backup PF as well. Same concept. When you replace those 3 players, you really have to replace a PF/C, PG/SG/SF, and a SF/PF.

Your suggestion is replacing all of that with a backup PG/SG and a PF/C, which leaves us down a SF/PF (Aminu) and an additional SF (to makeup for Lin not being able to play SF) as well. But we gain Lin to cover the 10 minutes a game Napier gets.

Agreed, we don't need a PG/SG/SF hybrid like Turner, but we do need a 2/3 hybrid that can dribble and relieve pressure from CJ/Damian while maintaining the ability to play with both of them or one of them. This allows us to always have 2 ballhandlers on the court, and 3 when plays alongside CJ and Damian.

You pointed out the difference between ED and Vonleh right there; Vonleh also has a developing offensive game that I would take over ED. It allows Vonleh to be a better and more effective PnR defender which is imperative in this league.

So you've traded away a future 1st round pick, Crabbe, Vonleh, Ed Davis, Meyers Leonard, Evan Turner, Aminu for Jeremy Lin and Cap Space, which this franchise has a history of doing SO well with bundles of cap space (if we cleared 50 million we would be what, 20 mill under, which gets us no true difference makers if you've looked at the market lately. And we have such a great history with free agents, right, and no assets to top of it!

Trevor Booker is not worth Aminu and Noah Vonleh, good lord my friend.

So we get around 20 mill in cap space, which it is doubful we would do anything with, for all your efforts of destroying the team and losing our first round pick in the process. Kudos!
 
Sarni said:
Deng, Mozgov, Biyombo, Fournier, Crabbe, Turner, Mahinmi etc. got that last year. Would any of them still get similar deals this year?
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Allan Crabbe was a restricted free agent. The restricted free agent market hasn't set itself yet; but it appears so with Otto Porter receiving a max offer. KCP will be next. Considering Allan Crabbe was one of the top 3pt shooters last year, he probably would've received more money, actually, if you consider Joe Ingles, who his 5 years older, got 3 mill less than him. Teams value youth, development, and potential and Crabbe has it - and showed more than just potential by shooting 44% over the course of the season. Teams would invest in that. Otto Porter just got max. JJ got 23 mill. Shooters get paid, especially when they are young and in the mold of 2/3 & D, which is almost as coveted as stretch 4s. Crabbe, like it or not, got paid for years 2 and more, not year 1 and year 2 is arguable.

Evan Turner is not an average NBA player. He is above average. Just like Nic Batum, he is underrated because he isn't great at anything, a little inconsistent, and makes you want to bang your head against a wall occasionally - but his skillset is hard to find and replicate and he has his clear issue shooting. He is a poor mans Andre Igoudala in his prime. He would probably make slightly less given Iguoudala got 16/year, but with his youth, and would've probably had better stats had he stayed with the Celtics. I believe we overpaid slightly for Evan Turner, but I doubt he would've left Boston otherwise; and he is a great addition, assuming he FITS IN instead of FITS out.

The rest I don't know as much about, but I would bet Fournier would've received a couple pricey offers based on age and scoring ability. Deng & Mozgov I highly doubt.
 
Fez Von Savage said:
Teague
Butler
Wiggins
Gibson
KAT

The most improved team in the league. They're going to be the most physical team with that starting unit.
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They're C heavy on the bench. Thibs ain't done.
 
Destroyer of Worlds said:
Allan Crabbe was a restricted free agent. The restricted free agent market hasn't set itself yet; but it appears so with Otto Porter receiving a max offer. KCP will be next. Considering Allan Crabbe was one of the top 3pt shooters last year, he probably would've received more money, actually, if you consider Joe Ingles, who his 5 years older, got 3 mill less than him. Teams value youth, development, and potential and Crabbe has it - and showed more than just potential by shooting 44% over the course of the season. Teams would invest in that. Otto Porter just got max. JJ got 23 mill. Shooters get paid, especially when they are young and in the mold of 2/3 & D, which is almost as coveted as stretch 4s. Crabbe, like it or not, got paid for years 2 and more, not year 1 and year 2 is arguable.

Evan Turner is not an average NBA player. He is above average. Just like Nic Batum, he is underrated because he isn't great at anything, a little inconsistent, and makes you want to bang your head against a wall occasionally - but his skillset is hard to find and replicate and he has his clear issue shooting. He is a poor mans Andre Igoudala in his prime. He would probably make slightly less given Iguoudala got 16/year, but with his youth, and would've probably had better stats had he stayed with the Celtics. I believe we overpaid slightly for Evan Turner, but I doubt he would've left Boston otherwise; and he is a great addition, assuming he FITS IN instead of FITS out.

The rest I don't know as much about, but I would bet Fournier would've received a couple pricey offers based on age and scoring ability. Deng & Mozgov I highly doubt.
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Batum is pretty much better across the board in every stat though
 
Mediocre Man said:
Batum is pretty much better across the board in every stat though
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Batum is the highest paid player on a 36 win Eastern Conference team. His 15.8 PER is nice but not much over average.

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