Brian Berger: Interesting Inside Info about KP

[THE HCP]

You should care.

13ppg for our starting SG isn't overly impressive.

You are just used to 21 from Brandon. It is impressive actually, he was the forth option in the offense. I would be curious to see what the scoring average is for every shooting guard in the NBA and what the scoring average is for every teams 4th option on O.

 

[Minstrel]

Yet when info comes out that says he wasn't, you're discounting that.

Yes, Steve Patterson, the guy who was pushed out, suddenly showing up and saying "That was all me" isn't very compelling. I wouldn't call it "new information" because I'm not sure it is "information." If you find it extremely compelling, that's fine.

My point (here) was not that Pritchard definitely did do those moves or that he didn't. It's that "Does the rest of his track record retroactively predict those moves" is not a particularly logical way to argue it. IMO, of course.

Since it's in dispute, I'm asking if you artificially remove the disputed parts, if it shows that it's something that's in their sphere. Specifically...KP has talked about a lot of trades...a lot of trade ideas have been rumored to be close, KP's made "1000's of phone calls" in trade deadline weeks, yet there's only been two trades of significance that he's ever pulled off...Camby and ZBo. Yet you're saying it's logical that an assistant GM who's never been more than a interim coach and Player Personnel director sets up a multi-team, multi-path deal to and consummates within 12 hours the ability to trade his starting PG and bad contracts for the #7 and bad contracts, while also jockeying high-lotto picks around with CHI, AND keeping up the intel on what MIN and HOU were doing so he could outmaneuver them for Roy?

Pritchard has made plenty of draft day moves. The idea that 2006 was a flurry of action and then he did nothing other than trading Randolph and trading for Camby is so completely divorced from reality, it seems like you're intentionally trying to distort things. Draft day deals to get Bayless and Batum are certainly of a piece with what he reportedly did in 2006. Even "quiet" draft days like this year and last involved trades.

Distorting the facts that dramatically suggest you're really in this to practice your spin abilities rather than trying to analyze what actually happened.

To say that there's not even a chance that KP didn't do it seems silly.

I said that I didn't know for certain whether he did or didn't do it. For you to say Hitler was a wonderful man seems silly.

Of course not. But pulling off that move wouldn't have been, say, Mitch Kupchak's or Danny Ainge's greatest success.

It would have been Kupchak's. Ainge has his own single, shining off-season that isn't "supported" by the rest of his track record.

I'm saying it's debatable

As I said at the top, it's fine by me if you put stock in Patterson's version.

and that the rest of his track record doesn't necessarily scream "Mover-and-shaker-who-consummates-big-deals-at-pressure-times"

It certainly screams "draft day mover-and-shaker." Of course, he didn't get another Roy, but Batum is a pretty similar strike to Aldridge. But nothing beyond Roy, Aldridge and Batum suggests he can get those kinds of players, so perhaps someone was behind the Batum move, too.

 

[OddEnormous]

I apologize, but I only read the first couple posts in this thread. Can I beg you guys to stop creating threads about anything that has to do with Brian Berger! Please. I pesonally have known him for more then 14 years and trust me when I say he knows nothing about the game of basketball and has absolutely NO inside sources! Put aside the fact that he is a jerk, he is not threadworthy and I am dead serious about this!

BOOM!




Most of you need your bullshit detectors recalibrated. Assuming you ever had one to begin with.

Stooges

 

[THE HCP]

BOOM!




Stooges.

I hope this means you agree with me or liked my post!

 

[OddEnormous]

I hope this means you agree with me or liked my post!

It does sir.

 

[Tince]

You are just used to 21 from Brandon. It is impressive actually, he was the forth option in the offense. I would be curious to see what the scoring average is for every shooting guard in the NBA and what the scoring average is for every teams 4th option on O.

Who do you think our 3rd option was? Certainly wasn't Batum, he had one arm and we ran less sets for him than Bayless.

Regardless, it looks like 13.5ppg would be 18th among 30 starting SGs, so that's slightly below average.

I saw Bayless as our #3 option when Roy was hurt, with Phoenix fully taking away Miller and LMA, daring Bayless (defato #1 option) to beat us.

 

[jlprk]

I said that I didn't know for certain whether he did or didn't do it. For you to say Hitler was a wonderful man seems silly.

If you subtract the worst things that Hitler did, he comes out smelling like a rose.

 

[RoyToy]

Tince, I think you're looking at it wrong, but I don't really care much.

To back up Minstrel's point

Portland made 2 trades in 2007 involving 9 players
4 in 2007 involving 10
2 in 2009 involving 7
And w/e 2010 was

The draft was KP's baby. That's why it's not hard to believe he was behind all the trades in 2006. It's what he does. 2006 there was just more work to be done, that's all.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Yet when info comes out that says he wasn't, you're discounting that. Since it's in dispute, I'm asking if you artificially remove the disputed parts, if it shows that it's something that's in their sphere. Specifically...KP has talked about a lot of trades...a lot of trade ideas have been rumored to be close, KP's made "1000's of phone calls" in trade deadline weeks, yet there's only been two trades of significance that he's ever pulled off...Camby and ZBo. Yet you're saying it's logical that an assistant GM who's never been more than a interim coach and Player Personnel director sets up a multi-team, multi-path deal to and consummates within 12 hours the ability to trade his starting PG and bad contracts for the #7 and bad contracts, while also jockeying high-lotto picks around with CHI, AND keeping up the intel on what MIN and HOU were doing so he could outmaneuver them for Roy?
To say that there's not even a chance that KP didn't do it seems silly.
Of course not. But pulling off that move wouldn't have been, say, Mitch Kupchak's or Danny Ainge's greatest success. And it would've been absurd to think Elgin Baylor could've pulled that off. There's room to interpret there, and you've interpreted that it makes sense that KP was in charge then. I think it's grayer than that.

You said that Roy/LMA was KP's greatest success. I'm saying it's debatable, and that the rest of his track record doesn't necessarily scream "Mover-and-shaker-who-consummates-big-deals-at-pressure-times"

OK, fair enough. So what about Patterson's track record makes you believe he could pull it off? This is the same yahoo who was in charge when the team effectively dealt Chris Paul for Martell Webster. What about his track record screams "I went from idiot to genius in 12 months!"

 

[BrianFromWA]

Yes, Steve Patterson, the guy who was pushed out, suddenly showing up and saying "That was all me" isn't very compelling. I wouldn't call it "new information" because I'm not sure it is "information." If you find it extremely compelling, that's fine.

I kind of do, since a) he was actually there, and B) I haven't heard many dispute him since he's come out.

Pritchard has made plenty of draft day moves. The idea that 2006 was a flurry of action and then he did nothing other than trading Randolph and trading for Camby is so completely divorced from reality, it seems like you're intentionally trying to distort things. Draft day deals to get Bayless and Batum are certainly of a piece with what he reportedly did in 2006. Even "quiet" draft days like this year and last involved trades.

If you'll read the post, it says Camby and ZBo were the only "moves of significance". Lots of GMs trade 26 for 28 and 34, or buy picks for 2M, etc. Batum was not a "flurry of deals" that involved complicated GM-ing. They targeted a player and moved to where they needed to. That happens 10 times a draft, so forgive me if I don't label that as a "significant move". Similar for Bayless. They traded 13 for 11, and the cost was downgrading from Jack to Ike Diogu. Maybe that's a good trade, maybe not...moving up two spots and swapping trash isn't "significant" in my book...if it's in yours, cool beans.

Distorting the facts that dramatically suggest you're really in this to practice your spin abilities rather than trying to analyze what actually happened.

I'd love to see you somehow pull out that getting the 26 pick, or swapping 11 for 13, was "significant" or "complicated". Then you can criticize me all you want for distorting facts.

I said that I didn't know for certain whether he did or didn't do it. For you to say Hitler was a wonderful man seems silly.

You said that 2006 was KP's greatest success. I said that you can't know that.

It would have been Kupchak's.

Pau Gasol and two rings disagree with that.

Ainge has his own single, shining off-season that isn't "supported" by the rest of his track record.

And if, say, Red Auerbach had been there saying Red actually pulled it off and Danny was his gofer, there'd be cause to believe Red, based on track records. KP didn't (doesn't?) have one, while no one has been saying Danny didn't do what he did (unlike the situation here)

As I said at the top, it's fine by me if you put stock in Patterson's version.
It certainly screams "draft day mover-and-shaker." Of course, he didn't get another Roy, but Batum is a pretty similar strike to Aldridge. But nothing beyond Roy, Aldridge and Batum suggests he can get those kinds of players, so perhaps someone was behind the Batum move, too.

We're not talking scouting ability. I'm happy to say that KP and his team did a great job targeting Roy and LMA and finding Batum and maybe Babbitt and Williams. We're talking about pulling off a couple of the more complex draft-day machinations of the last 10 years or so, and people are coming out saying it wasn't KP that pulled it off, and I'm saying there seems to be reason to doubt.

 

[BrianFromWA]

OK, fair enough. So what about Patterson's track record makes you believe he could pull it off? This is the same yahoo who was in charge when the team effectively dealt Chris Paul for Martell Webster. What about his track record screams "I went from idiot to genius in 12 months!"

I specifically put in there that it doesn't seem like Patterson, and edited it after Sly's post to say that Gabriel made sense.
And it was CP3 for Webster and Jack.

 

[barfo]

Why does it have to be one guy? Isn't it possible that more than one person contributed?

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

Tince, I think you're looking at it wrong, but I don't really care much.

To back up Minstrel's point

Portland made 2 trades in 2007 involving 9 players
4 in 2007 involving 10
2 in 2009 involving 7
And w/e 2010 was

The draft was KP's baby. That's why it's not hard to believe he was behind all the trades in 2006. It's what he does. 2006 there was just more work to be done, that's all.

I agree with much of your post, but the entire question here is about that "more work to be done" part.
Yes, KP's swapped a bunch of 2nd-rounder, stockpiled 2nds, traded 26 for 28 and 34, bought picks, swapped 13 for 11, traded Webster for 16, etc. NONE of those moves are moves outside what normally happens at the draft. How many picks were bought this draft? Were there any other teams that moved up or down? I agree that the draft is definitely KP's comfort zone, because he and his team generally have specific targets and know how to go after them. (Though last year's 2nd round and Armon Johnson confuse me a bit, but whatever).
I asked the question: does KP's track record show that he's even capable of the type of action required to pull off the 2006 draft, much less by a guy who'd never been a GM before? Or does it make sense that someone like Gabriel or Patterson made it work, to get the people that KP and his team targeted?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Why does it have to be one guy? Isn't it possible that more than one person contributed?

barfo

this is what i've been saying. It seems as if Minstrel and others think that KP took charge in 2006 and made his bones and became GM. Others (like Patterson and Berger) are saying that KP didn't have much to do with it, and that it was a team effort. I'm saying that it's possible that the answer is in the middle of the two, and that there isn't much in KPs c.v. since then to make one think he was capable of pulling off the machinations to make the 2006 draft happen by himself.

 

[Minstrel]

I kind of do, since a) he was actually there, and B) I haven't heard many dispute him since he's come out.

I was actually there for Game 7 of the 2000 WCF and I say the Blazers won. Oddly, I haven't heard many dispute my claim since I made it. Maybe some things aren't really worth people's time or dignity to argue. Isn't it even odder that no one refuted the reports at the time that KP was in charge of the draft and orchestrated it?

If you'll read the post, it says Camby and ZBo were the only "moves of significance". Lots of GMs trade 26 for 28 and 34, or buy picks for 2M, etc. Batum was not a "flurry of deals" that involved complicated GM-ing. They targeted a player and moved to where they needed to. That happens 10 times a draft, so forgive me if I don't label that as a "significant move". Similar for Bayless. They traded 13 for 11, and the cost was downgrading from Jack to Ike Diogu. Maybe that's a good trade, maybe not...moving up two spots and swapping trash isn't "significant" in my book...if it's in yours, cool beans.

Sorry, this is becoming more and more ridiculous. "If you remove 2006, the rest of his track record (if you remove every trade I consider 'easy') doesn't suggest he can make trades." Yes, if you remove everything that doesn't fit your theory, your theory is hard to dispute. You got me.

You said that 2006 was KP's greatest success. I said that you can't know that.

Me stating my opinion hardly suggests that I consider it locked-in-stone fact. Perhaps you should pay more attention, since I said this (and you quoted and responded to it directly, so you didn't miss it): "Did Pritchard mastermind the 2006 draft? I certainly don't know for sure."

Does "I don't know for sure" mean "There is no chance that he didn't make thie moves?" I leave it as an exercise for the reader!

Pau Gasol and two rings disagree with that.

Kobe Bryant disagrees that Pau Gasol won two rings by himself. I'll take Roy and Aldridge over Gasol. And, again, nothing in Kupchak's record really suggests that he can make moves like getting Gasol. Other than, you know, getting Gasol.

Let me clarify once again: I don't care if you find reason to doubt Pritchard did those deals. I just think your reasoning in support of Patterson's claims are lacking in logic. Trades like the 2006 one (both in terms of quality and complexity) don't come along often...the fact that Pritchard didn't do another that was exactly as elaborate in four seasons indicates nothing, because one wouldn't (reasonably) expect more trades like that in such a short period of time. The fact that he's been extremely active since then and done good, even if not great, work is perfectly in line with the reports of him having done those deals.

 

[RoyToy]

KP made slick moves for Bayless and Batum, mainly Batum. He had to trade to get those players.

2006 was just different in that it was a prefect storm. Not only did the Blazers target the right guys, the teams around them didn't, and those teams were willing to deal.

What is forgotten is KP(or whoever) swooped in and stole Roy away from Houston. Houston wanted Roy and had a deal with Minn to send Foye to Minn for Roy. What did the Blazers do? Draft Foye, thus taking Houston out of the picture. If they don't draft Foye they don't get Roy, fact.

These are the type of slick moves that didn't exist until we started hearing more of Pritchard's name. He did a similar thing with Batum and was able to get him and leave SA in the dust. Pacer fans are probably still upset over missing out on Bayless.

Fleecing teams became the norm under Pritchard. Say it again: Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw for Marcus Camby.

You keep talking about KP's track record and if it shows he's capable of pulling off the 2006 draft. Considering the draft is unarguably his strongest area, and that he's had good drafts pretty much every year, I would have to say yes. KP acquired a ton of young talent over a short period of time and is why this team is still set up to win for a long time.

 

[jlprk]

Why did this reassessment of Pritchard wait till he was gone? I was saying similar things (on ESPN) for his entire tenure, and all I got was hate and people getting me banned. Pritchard is just an average GM who grabs all the praise he can and doesn't spread it around. Now that everyone agrees with me, let's storm the Bastille and Bring Back Bob !! I swear on the grave of BobWhitsittsGhost, I'm tired of waiting !!

 

[BrianFromWA]

I was actually there for Game 7 of the 2000 WCF and I say the Blazers won. Oddly, I haven't heard many dispute my claim since I made it. Maybe some things aren't really worth people's time or dignity to argue. Isn't it even odder that no one refuted the reports at the time that KP was in charge of the draft and orchestrated it?

I'll dispute it. I saw video evidence of it. Unless you've got video evidence otherwise, I win again.

Sorry, this is becoming more and more ridiculous. "If you remove 2006, the rest of his track record (if you remove every trade I consider 'easy') doesn't suggest he can make trades." Yes, if you remove everything that doesn't fit your theory, your theory is hard to dispute. You got me.

It ridiculous if you're caught? You're the one who misunderstood or misrepresented the original post, not me.

Me stating my opinion hardly suggests that I consider it locked-in-stone fact. Perhaps you should pay more attention, since I said this (and you quoted and responded to it directly, so you didn't miss it): "Did Pritchard mastermind the 2006 draft? I certainly don't know for sure."

Yet you keep bringing it up as one of his "greatest successes", after I said I'm removing it from consideration since it's under dispute.

Kobe Bryant disagrees that Pau Gasol won two rings by himself. I'll take Roy and Aldridge over Gasol. And, again, nothing in Kupchak's record really suggests that he can make moves like getting Gasol. Other than, you know, getting Gasol.

That's cool. #4 and your starting PG for Roy and Aldridge and two first-round exits, or #28, 30 and Kwame Brown, Crittendon and a 2nd-rounder who became Marc Gasol for two rings and a 3rd Finals appearance. We'll agree to disagree here.

Let me clarify once again: I don't care if you find reason to doubt Pritchard did those deals. I just think your reasoning in support of Patterson's claims are lacking in logic. Trades like the 2006 one (both in terms of quality and complexity) don't come along often...the fact that Pritchard didn't do another that was exactly as elaborate in four seasons indicates nothing, because one wouldn't (reasonably) expect more trades like that in such a short period of time. The fact that he's been extremely active since then and done good, even if not great, work is perfectly in line with the reports of him having done those deals.

Why wouldn't you expect more "complex" trades in the last 4 years? Especially with our team. We've needed a "consolidation"...we've needed a legit 2nd option, we've needed to clear minutes for our core, we've needed to either clear cap space or use expiring contracts, and none of that has happened, even with all of PA's resources and KP's excellent drafting (other than, as I've said, for Camby and ZBo). I get that your opinion is that he's been "extremely active" and "good, even if not great", and that that's more than enough evidence for you to discount Patterson and Berger and whoever else comes along. It doesn't for me, and KP's track record actually legitimizes a bit what Patterson's been saying.

 

[Further]

I apologize, but I only read the first couple posts in this thread. Can I beg you guys to stop creating threads about anything that has to do with Brian Berger! Please. I pesonally have known him for more then 14 years and trust me when I say he knows nothing about the game of basketball and has absolutely NO inside sources! Put aside the fact that he is a jerk, he is not threadworthy and I am dead serious about this!

I had heard Berger but never really had a take on him. But I trust you HCP, at least regarding this topic. So, I will disregard his claims to inside info.

 

[barfo]

this is what i've been saying. It seems as if Minstrel and others think that KP took charge in 2006 and made his bones and became GM. Others (like Patterson and Berger) are saying that KP didn't have much to do with it, and that it was a team effort. I'm saying that it's possible that the answer is in the middle of the two, and that there isn't much in KPs c.v. since then to make one think he was capable of pulling off the machinations to make the 2006 draft happen by himself.

I don't think Patterson and Berger are saying it was a team effort. They are saying it was Patterson.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Kobe Bryant disagrees that Pau Gasol won two rings by himself.

As does Ammo!

barfo

 

[barfo]

That's cool. #4 and your starting PG for Roy and Aldridge and two first-round exits, or #28, 30 and Kwame Brown, Crittendon and a 2nd-rounder who became Marc Gasol for two rings and a 3rd Finals appearance.

Something tells me you are skewing the comparison here just a wee bit. Starting PG = Telfair? And didn't that other guy on the lakers, Adam Morrison, have something to do with those rings?

Perhaps more fairly:
#4 and Telfail for Roy and Aldridge, or Kwame Brown, Crittendon, Marc Gasol, Darrell Arthur, and Greivis Vasquez for Pau Gasol.

barfo

 

[Sheldon Shape]

LMAO @ the bullshit people actually believe.

 

[jlprk]

I don't think Patterson and Berger are saying it was a team effort. They are saying it was Patterson.

From today's program, I didn't hear Berger saying that. He said the 2006 draft was led by Patterson, not Pritchard as the Oregonian has hinted. Berger didn't say which individuals in the room came up with the Roy and Aldridge choices. He only said who was for Morrison.

He didn't tell us the process. I would like to hear a more complex history as to how the choice is made among dissenting voices, especially when one is Paul Allen. It's more than a democracy in the war room, it's a technocracy. The Oregonian says that Allen is so bad because he was for Morrison. We don't hear how he must not have pushed very hard, because obviously, he lost and we didn't take Morrison.

 

[barfo]

From today's program, I didn't hear Berger saying that. He said the 2006 draft was led by Patterson, not Pritchard as the Oregonian has hinted. Berger didn't say which individuals in the room came up with the Roy and Aldridge choices. He only said who was for Morrison.

Berger didn't say that, but Patterson did, and Berger said what Patterson said was the gospel.

He didn't tell us the process. I would like to hear a more complex history as to how the choice is made among dissenting voices, especially when one is Paul Allen. It's more than a democracy in the war room, it's a technocracy. The Oregonian says that Allen is so bad because he was for Morrison. We don't hear how he must not have pushed very hard, because obviously, he lost and we didn't take Morrison.

We need to get the guy who wrote the Rolling Stone piece on McChrystal on this.

barfo

 

[jlprk]

Weird. When I quote your post there aren't two separate quotes, only one. So there's no unquote mark in the middle, and I messed up this post. Double post.

 

[jlprk]

Berger didn't say that, but Patterson did, and Berger said what Patterson said was the gospel.

Just to clarify for those who didn't listen to the tape, Berger didn't really say that what Patterson said is gospel. 2 or 3 times in the hour, he said, Patterson said such and such. Berger says he knows others in the organization and gets his info from more than one person.

 

[BIG Q]

I did listen to the podcast. I do not however have the time or want to read every post in this thread. I do have a couple of questions.

1. Is there a consensus whos dick Berger is sucking?

I ask because he acted as though the info he was spewing is the gospel and he has known this info
a long time and doing all of us a favor by letting us in on the secret. Is he now sucking Steve
Pattersons dick, Paul Allens, the squirly little team presidents or some Vulcans phalic?

2. If Berger really did know all of these "facts" that he espoused in his "fact or fiction" diatribe, why did
he not make light of them years ago?

I ask because I have listened to him interview KP at least twice and he never asked KP about the
2006 draft, scouting Batum or any trades he allegedly did not actually construct. Again, whos dick
was Berger sucking at that time? KP's to get an interview? Paul Allens? Berger claims to know KP
did not conduct the 2006 draft yet the Blazers company line up until recently was that KP
did infact conduct the 2006 draft. Again, was Berger sitting on info we all would have liked to
know or did he in fact not know shit?

3. Given all of this new 2006 draft info, are we really supposed to believe that Kevin McHale and
Danny Ainge were willing dupes in this charade as well?

I ask because McHale and Ainge were KP's hardest "Pritch slaps." Why have they played along in
the old Portland company line that KP "Prich slapped" them? Those two guys have huge egos. Are
they on Paul Allens payroll as well? We are led to believe they are because they have not come
forward to say that they were in fact "Patterson slapped."

This all seems dubious to me. I am not saying others did not have a hand in KP's success. We do know that Portland has an excellent scouting department. Of course they deserve a lot of credit, but under whos leadership were they scouting these guys?

 

[Mediocre Man]

3. Given all of this new 2006 draft info, are we really supposed to believe that Kevin McHale and
Danny Ainge were willing dupes in this charade as well?

I ask because McHale and Ainge were KP's hardest "Pritch slaps." Why have they played along in
the old Portland company line that KP "Prich slapped" them? Those two guys have huge egos. Are
they on Paul Allens payroll as well? We are led to believe they are because they have not come
forward to say that they were in fact "Patterson slapped."

I ask this in all seriousness. Have they come out and said they got Pritch slapped either? It would be great to see something that McHale or Ainge said about KP slapping them. Not as a prove it to me thing, but I woul dreally like to read that because I don't remember reading anything about it.

 

[BGrantFan]

I apologize, but I only read the first couple posts in this thread. Can I beg you guys to stop creating threads about anything that has to do with Brian Berger! Please. I pesonally have known him for more then 14 years and trust me when I say he knows nothing about the game of basketball and has absolutely NO inside sources! Put aside the fact that he is a jerk, he is not threadworthy and I am dead serious about this!

I said the exact same thing, and I know Brian as well. He's a douchebag who I'm hearing got a new client with the initials SP, and he's using his radio show for PR purposes. I wonder how the people at The Game feel about that?

For this inside information, I get flamed, and posters gobble up what Brian is spewing as if it has any value at all other than PR spin.