OT Cancel Culture: Discuss

[crandc]

I can't discuss it because there is no such thing. Like political correctness, a term thrown out to mean your side is bad.

 

[Natebishop3]

Man, these labels are just kind of silly these days. Cancel culture used to be a personal choice, "Well that guy's an asshole and I'm not going to any more of his movies."

Speaking of labels, Minstrel, how do you feel about the "person of color" that's been adopted as the correct way to refer to non-white folks? Just seems kind of awkward to me.

The most interesting part is that POC isn't enough, we have BPOC because black isn't enough... we need black person of color..... which to me seems like saying ATM machine.

 

[Minstrel]

Speaking of labels, Minstrel, how do you feel about the "person of color" that's been adopted as the correct way to refer to non-white folks? Just seems kind of awkward to me.

It's longer than one might like, I agree, but I think it has value in combining blacks, Latinos, Asians, etc, while not defining them by their (lack of) whiteness as "non-white" would do.

 

[Minstrel]

The most interesting part is that POC isn't enough, we have BPOC because black isn't enough... we need black person of color..... which to me seems like saying ATM machine.

BPOC isn't particularly common (I can only find reference to it on urban dictionary). You might be thinking of BIPOC, which is "black, indigenous and people of color," which is sometimes used to recognize that black people and indigenous people have had uniquely difficult and extensive experiences in this country. As an Asian person, I'm comfortable with that expression though I generally use a lot of different expressions (people of color, non-whites, racial minorities) as I don't feel particularly wedded to any single one of them.

 

[riverman]

The most interesting part is that POC isn't enough, we have BPOC because black isn't enough... we need black person of color..... which to me seems like saying ATM machine.

You really need to study the genocide of the Native American tribes before you keep moving the timelines of racial profiling around in the modern era......maybe look at slavery as well. Why not call people by their name or address them by their chosen titles....if that's African American or Native american you just drop the Negro and Indian from the language and move on. It's not up to white people to decide what is appropriate to call groups of people with common ethnic backgrounds. Be nice if we could just call people Joe and Sally and move on but "definitions"

 

[e_blazer]

It's longer than one might like, I agree, but I think it has value in combining blacks, Latinos, Asians, etc, while not defining them by their (lack of) whiteness as "non-white" would do.

Yeah, I guess. "Melanin-advantaged" doesn't just roll off the tongue either.

 

[riverman]

BPOC isn't particularly common (I can only find reference to it on urban dictionary). You might be thinking of BIPOC, which is "black, indigenous and people of color," which is sometimes used to recognize that black people and indigenous people have had uniquely difficult and extensive experiences in this country. As an Asian person, I'm comfortable with that expression though I generally use a lot of different expressions (people of color, non-whites, racial minorities) as I don't feel particularly wedded to any single one of them.

My wife doesn't mind Asian american as a reference....which fits most groups...African american....Hispanic american...Native american...etc....pretty simple really...personally I don't refer to those terms unless I'm describing someone to someone else....thankfully we don't go around saying ...Hi there african american...I'm causcasian american...nice to meet you.

 

[Natebishop3]

You really need to study the genocide of the Native American tribes before you keep moving the timelines of racial profiling around in the modern era......maybe look at slavery as well. Why not call people by their name or address them by their chosen titles....if that's African American or Native american you just drop the Negro and Indian from the language and move on. It's not up to white people to decide what is appropriate to call groups of people with common ethnic backgrounds. Be nice if we could just call people Joe and Sally and move on but "definitions"

Would you call a black man from England an African American?

 

[e_blazer]

I can't discuss it because there is no such thing. Like political correctness, a term thrown out to mean your side is bad.

Oh, now you're just being prickly. Pretty sure that "political correctness" has a meaning that we all understand. In fact the Oxford Languages on-line dictionary defines it as, "the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

 

[riverman]

Would you call a black man from England an African American?

No..of course not...I'm talking about cancel culture here in our country....I'd call him by his name and if I described him I'd probably say...I talked with a black man from Liverpool and blah, blah, blah......my students often said in Taiwan I spoke pretty good Chinese for a white guy....no problem. It's a description....I've never been denied jobs or basic services for being "white" so that's easy for me to say. My point is an entire indigenous population was cancelled here in America and now people think it started with Bill Cosby ...The German Nazis had a real "cancel culture" fad going as well back in the day....

 

[Natebishop3]

No..of course not...I'm talking about cancel culture here in our country....I'd call him by his name and if I described him I'd probably say...I talked with a black man from Liverpool and blah, blah, blah......my students often said in Taiwan I spoke pretty good Chinese for a white guy....no problem. It's a description....I've never been denied jobs or basic services for being "white" so that's easy for me to say. My point is an entire indigenous population was cancelled here in America and now people think it started with Bill Cosby

River the conversation shifted a bit. I'm not talking cancel culture right now.

 

[Natebishop3]

Listen, here's how I feel, and if it makes me a bad person then so be it.

If we're talking equality, then I'm 100% on board. Absolutely. I want everyone to be equal. I want everyone to be treated the same. No question at all. Paid the same. Treated the same by the police. Given the same opportunities for houses and jobs and whatever it is. You'll get nothing but support from me.

What irks me is when people talk about equality, and then they turn around and they want to be unique as well. They want to be treated equally, but also seem to want to be treated BETTER than equal. That's not equality. In fact that's the opposite of equality. So either get on board with wholesale equality, OR just be honest and say you want your turn in the sun, but don't sell it wrapped in this cloak of equality.

 

[riverman]

Would you call a black man from England an African American?

Native Americans lobbied against sports franchises caricatures of their people and calling them Indians all my life.....you bothered by that at all? Is that just PC to you or does it resonate as being a well founded complaint by a proud group of people?

 

[riverman]

The idea of political correctness should not replace a simple term...correctness....right and wrong...it's worked for me all my life without segregating anyone

 

[riverman]

River the conversation shifted a bit. I'm not talking cancel culture right now.

fair enough, I'll bow out here...said enough about it

 

[Natebishop3]

Native Americans lobbied against sports franchises caricatures of their people and calling them Indians all my life.....you bothered by that at all? Is that just PC to you or does it resonate as being a well founded complaint by a proud group of people?

I think it's a little strange to think that all natives of this continent fit under one umbrella. They were many different nations. That's like saying all Europeans agree on anything. They don't.

 

[Minstrel]

Yeah, I guess. "Melanin-advantaged" doesn't just roll off the tongue either.

I've used that before, too. I'm pretty sure dviss has as well.

 

[Minstrel]

What irks me is when people talk about equality, and then they turn around and they want to be unique as well. They want to be treated equally, but also seem to want to be treated BETTER than equal. That's not equality. In fact that's the opposite of equality. So either get on board with wholesale equality, OR just be honest and say you want your turn in the sun, but don't sell it wrapped in this cloak of equality.

What do you consider to be an example of people wanting to be treated better than equal?

 

[Minstrel]

Oh, now you're just being prickly. Pretty sure that "political correctness" has a meaning that we all understand. In fact the Oxford Languages on-line dictionary defines it as, "the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

I don't think she meant that there's literally not a meaning for the words. But rather that it's become a catch-all term to simply say "liberals are bad" (in these two examples, but of course I'm sure there are terms that liberals use in a similar way). In that sense, they're meaningless--while you can try to write down a formal meaning for the term (as the OED did) even those formal definitions have many subjective judgments in them which allows for it to mean whatever you want it to mean. Don't like someone saying "Happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas?" Political correctness! OR cancel culture, for that matter...Christmas has been cancelled. At that point, it really is just "whatever I dislike."

 

[riverman]

I think it's a little strange to think that all natives of this continent fit under one umbrella. They were many different nations. That's like saying all Europeans agree on anything. They don't.

unfortunately being transported to reservations by US soldiers put them all under one umbrella.....after destroying their food source...they weren't separated by tribes at all....like I said...do some research....Apaches and Navajos from New Mexico were moved to places like Oklahoma and settled with Lakota, Crow, any other imprisoned Native American

 

[e_blazer]

I don't think she meant that there's literally not a meaning for the words. But rather that it's become a catch-all term to simply say "liberals are bad" (in these two examples, but of course I'm sure there are terms that liberals use in a similar way). In that sense, they're meaningless--while you can try to write down a formal meaning for the term (as the OED did) even those formal definitions have many subjective judgments in them which allows for it to mean whatever you want it to mean. Don't like someone saying "Happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas?" Political correctness! OR cancel culture, for that matter...Christmas has been cancelled. At that point, it really is just "whatever I dislike."

The phrase is certainly used as a shorthand for, “I don’t like the way you think about this”, or “how dare you try to marginalize my views on this?” The fact is that we live in a society made up of people with widely-varied worldviews and we don’t tend to suffer those who disagree with us very well. It would be nice if people sometimes just took a breath before overreacting. Sometimes “happy holidays” is just meant as a simple “enjoy the season no matter which days are special to you.” Sometimes it’s okay to not go to DEFCON 4 if you’re an atheist and someone with general good intentions towards you happens to wish you a merry Christmas.

 

[e_blazer]

I've used that before, too. I'm pretty sure dviss has as well.

Who do you think I stole it from?

 

[Minstrel]

The phrase is certainly used as a shorthand for, “I don’t like the way you think about this”, or “how dare you try to marginalize my views on this?” The fact is that we live in a society made up of people with widely-varied worldviews and we don’t tend to suffer those who disagree with us very well. It would be nice if people sometimes just took a breath before overreacting. Sometimes “happy holidays” is just meant as a simple “enjoy the season no matter which days are special to you.” Sometimes it’s okay to not go to DEFCON 4 if you’re an atheist and someone with general good intentions towards you happens to wish you a merry Christmas.

I agree with you. I'm interested in actual discussions of issues and concepts, rather than either using terms as shorthand in a culture war or assuming that anything said is shots fired in a culture war. And obviously both sides are guilty of that.

 

[crandc]

I think it's a little strange to think that all natives of this continent fit under one umbrella. They were many different nations. That's like saying all Europeans agree on anything. They don't.

Many years ago my old Toyota broke down and I had to call for a tow. They take it to the nearest place. Driver told me the mechanic should be able to do a good job fixing my Japanese car because he was Vietnamese. Which makes exactly as much sense as saying a Spaniard should be especially good at fixing a Volvo.

 

[Natebishop3]

unfortunately being transported to reservations by US soldiers put them all under one umbrella.....after destroying their food source...they weren't separated by tribes at all....like I said...do some research....Apaches and Navajos from New Mexico were moved to places like Oklahoma and settled with Lakota, Crow, any other imprisoned Native American

River I suspect that my education about the natives in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s was probably better and more accurate than your education about them in the 60s or 70s.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

River I suspect that my education about the natives in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s was probably better and more accurate than your education about them in the 60s or 70s.

If you like regional native history you should check out the Museum of Natural and Cultural History in Eugene when it opens again after covid.

 

[riverman]

River I suspect that my education about the natives in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s was probably better and more accurate than your education about them in the 60s or 70s.

My grandmother was half Lakota..half French Canadian..I grew up across the river from the rez...my parents are from Deadwood and Wounded Knee...(both depression era orphans) .if you know this history, you wouldn't think cancel culture was a new thing....that's my entire point. Native American baseball teams from the rez couldn't compete with the public school state teams...adults were not allowed to drink in local pubs.... It's something I've been brought up around my whole life.. Also McCarthyism....bad cancel culture ....I was born in 1954....I don't think many people from my generation were as close to that culture as I was. I'm certainly not an expert but I've had long talks with people who actually are and read extensively about it. I worked as a bricklayer on the rez first summer back from the war. You may have a more modern education than I but have you experience with that culture? Did your grandmother tell you the stories? If your education was better...you'd have known tribes were separated and put in mixed reservations removed from their heritage...this was in response to....lumping Native americans tribes together....which we absolutely did in this country. the 80s, 90s and 2000s weren't nearly as politically active as the 60s or 70s....they were entertainment, consumer addicted eras .....if you think the Viet Nam war was less political than the Nirvana fanclub....I don't know what to tell you...the biggest civil rights demonstrations in history happened back then....Wounded Knee happened back then too...See Dennis Banks and Russell Means...how they spent that era

 

[Natebishop3]

My grandmother was half Lakota....I grew up across the river from the rez...my parents are from Deadwood and Wounded Knee...(both depression era orphans) .if you know this history, you wouldn't think cancel culture was a new thing....that's my entire point. Native American baseball teams from the rez couldn't compete with the public school state teams...adults were not allowed to drink in local pubs.... It's something I've been brought up around my whole life.. Also McCarthyism....bad cancel culture ....I was born in 1954....I don't think many people from my generation were as close to that culture as I was. I'm certainly not an expert but I've had long talks with people who actually are and read extensively about it. I worked as a bricklayer on the rez first summer back from the war. You may have a more modern education than I but have you experience with that culture? Did your grandmother tell you the stories?

We're talking about the phrase "cancer culture."

I have no idea how you tied this all to native Americans. I don't really have any particular opinion or really the desire to carry on this bizarre side conversation.

 

[Natebishop3]

What do you consider to be an example of people wanting to be treated better than equal?

So I think the most recent example that comes to mind is the whole "womxn" thing.

So on the one hand we have people who just want to be accepted as a woman, like any other woman in the eyes of society. That's fine. Happy to oblige.

So why do we need a phrase that separates them out? It makes no sense to me. I think someone pointed out last time this came up (maybe it was you) that this isn't a widely accepted term by the trans community, but stilll.... it just doesn't make sense to me. It seems counter-productive to what they're trying to achieve.

Or the BIPOC thing. To me, POC should be pretty well all-encompassing. Not sure why we need to identify POC and also black people because they need their own letter in the acronym, and indigenous because of how shitty we were to them. I don't get it.

Isn't the end goal that we stop looking at race entirely? Perfect world, wouldn't that be what we're striving for?

 

[riverman]

We're talking about the phrase "cancer culture."

I have no idea how you tied this all to native Americans. I don't really have any particular opinion or really the desire to carry on this bizarre side conversation.

cancer culture? Who is we? I"M BEING CANCELLED!!