Politics C'Mon, Dems....

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Minstrel said:
You're right, I was imprecise in my post. If you want a say, not a voice. Biden has a legitimate chance, so voting for him is having a say, even if you lose. Voting for the Libertarian candidate is a waste of a vote if you want a say in the next government, since the Libertarian candidate is certainly not going to win the Presidency.

There are systems of government where voting for smaller parties still gives you a say in the actual government, but our current system isn't one of them.
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The reason why I call it, "bullying" which sure might be an improper use of the term is that it seems to be used like this. If you don't vote for one of these two (usually it's one side saying vote for my candidate) and the other side wins and they end up being bad, I am going to also blame you for it because my candidate didn't win. That is basically saying if you don't vote for my candidate whether you voted for that guy or not I am going to be upset at you for not doing what I say. This is usually seen and heard on air-waves over and over as the election process happens. That to me is saying we are the big established 'person', and we will get our way if you chose to not go along with us in ANY capacity we will say you're the problem.
It's all tribalism, and the tribes have no acceptance of anyone who they think might be a threat to their power. Even though the problem is we're all people and it's supposed to be "country and people" over party, but it's not. The party tribes are more important.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
The reason why I call it, "bullying" which sure might be an improper use of the term is that it seems to be used like this. If you don't vote for one of these two (usually it's one side saying vote for my candidate) and the other side wins and they end up being bad, I am going to also blame you for it because my candidate didn't win. That is basically saying if you don't vote for my candidate whether you voted for that guy or not I am going to be upset at you for not doing what I say. This is usually seen and heard on air-waves over and over as the election process happens. That to me is saying we are the big established 'person', and we will get our way if you chose to not go along with us in ANY capacity we will say you're the problem.
It's all tribalism, and the tribes have no acceptance of anyone who they think might be a threat to their power. Even though the problem is we're all people and it's supposed to be "country and people" over party, but it's not. The party tribes are more important.
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I agree that it's tribalism. We're tribal in nature. I suppose you could call it bullying, but then trying to get people from the "other side" (Republicans if you're Democrat, vice versa) could also be called bullying, or trying to win the centrist voters could be called bullying. It's all attempts at persuasion and trying to get more people to join your side.

I think as with any viewpoint, you can use "bullying" tactics or you can use more honeyed tactics to win people over. I don't think the viewpoint itself ("a vote for a third party is a waste of a vote") is bullying, but bullies can have that viewpoint. Bullies can also have your viewpoint (not that I think you are)--I've seen lots of hectoring of Democrats and Republicans that they're to blame for all the ills of society because they prop up a corrupt two-party system. The viewpoint itself isn't to blame, IMO, the person involved either is a bully or isn't.
 
Minstrel said:
I agree that it's tribalism. We're tribal in nature. I suppose you could call it bullying, but then trying to get people from the "other side" (Republicans if you're Democrat, vice versa) could also be called bullying, or trying to win the centrist voters could be called bullying. It's all attempts at persuasion and trying to get more people to join your side.

I think as with any viewpoint, you can use "bullying" tactics or you can use more honeyed tactics to win people over. I don't think the viewpoint itself ("a vote for a third party is a waste of a vote") is bullying, but bullies can have that viewpoint. Bullies can also have your viewpoint (not that I think you are)--I've seen lots of hectoring of Democrats and Republicans that they're to blame for all the ills of society because they prop up a corrupt two-party system. The viewpoint itself isn't to blame, IMO, the person involved either is a bully or isn't.
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I agree that a bully can have any viewpoint. I think what I get frustrated with and feel like it's an attempt to, "bully" me or others is the notion that I'm somehow responsible for Trump and his nonsense because I wasn't willing to line up and vote for another politician who I didn't like. I see it happening with Biden already as well. There seems to be a belief that my vote would automatically go to their side. Or independents who I've read people think caused Hillary to lose would have all went to Hillary's side. That is actually where this discussion started, someone (I'd have to go back and look) said well by voting third party you're voting for Trump!
I don't believe the "r's and d's" are to blame for all the ills of society, but I believe that the parties have generally been bought off, and aren't looking out for America's best interests but their own. I don't see them as public servants, I see them as people who think the public should serve them. I also think when it comes to, "bullying" that the parties and the media machines have a vested interest in telling their viewers that the people who don't vote against them, or either voting for the other side or wasting their vote, and I mentioned that, I think it's a bullying tactic used by those people and has been reiterated to the point that it has been adopted as the opinion of many of their viewers. I did not claim that you or @andalusian were bullying me.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I agree that a bully can have any viewpoint. I think what I get frustrated with and feel like it's an attempt to, "bully" me or others is the notion that I'm somehow responsible for Trump and his nonsense because I wasn't willing to line up and vote for another politician who I didn't like. I see it happening with Biden already as well. There seems to be a belief that my vote would automatically go to their side. Or independents who I've read people think caused Hillary to lose would have all went to Hillary's side. That is actually where this discussion started, someone (I'd have to go back and look) said well by voting third party you're voting for Trump!
I don't believe the "r's and d's" are to blame for all the ills of society, but I believe that the parties have generally been bought off, and aren't looking out for America's best interests but their own. I don't see them as public servants, I see them as think the public should serve them. I also think when it comes to, "bullying" that the parties and the media machines have a vested interest in telling their viewers that the people who don't vote against them, or either voting for the other side or wasting their vote, and I mentioned that, I think it's a bullying tactic used by those people and has been reiterated to the point that it has been adopted as the opinion of many of their viewers. I did not claim that you or @andalusian were bullying me.
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Bullying is excessive persuasion to the point of scaring the object person.

Webster:
"Definition of bully
(Entry 1 of 4)

1a : a blustering, browbeating person especially : one who is habitually cruel, insulting, or threatening to others who are weaker, smaller, or in some way vulnerable tormented by the neighborhood bully"

I hope you don't consider yourself a victim of a bully.
 
Lanny said:
Bullying is excessive persuasion to the point of scaring the object person.

Webster:
"Definition of bully
(Entry 1 of 4)

1a : a blustering, browbeating person especially : one who is habitually cruel, insulting, or threatening to others who are weaker, smaller, or in some way vulnerable tormented by the neighborhood bully"

I hope you don't consider yourself a victim of a bully.
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Only my 5 year old.
 
jonnyboy said:
Most will, yes. That doesn’t make a persons vote for a third party the same as a vote for Trump. That’s called bullying.
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It's not bullying any more than you saying that it is bullying is bullying.

barfo
 
Independent%2B50%2Bpercent%2Bof%2Bvoters%2Bsmall%2BPeople%2BAgainst%2BBig%2BGovt.png
 
If I register as an independent but continue to vote for Democrats, does that make 3rd parties viable?

I don't think so.

barfo
 
barfo said:
If I register as an independent but continue to vote for Democrats, does that make 3rd parties viable?

I don't think so.

barfo
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Two parties is fine if at least one of them will stop giving us horrible candidates. Given the inability of two parties to ferret out even one decent candidate out of 330 million people, are we sure that more parties will increase the odds?
 
e_blazer said:
Two parties is fine if at least one of them will stop giving us horrible candidates. Given the inability of two parties to ferret out even one decent candidate out of 330 million people, are we sure that more parties will increase the odds?
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Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you, else they'd all vote for somebody else.
 
Hoopguru said:
Fig1.png
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That's great, but which third party? Adding up support for all the possible third parties actually tells you nothing. If 5% want libertarianism, 5% want socialism, 5% want pure centrism, 5% want fascism, etc--you're no closer to a third party winning than if there was 0% support for third parties. You're not somehow uniting a wide spread of vastly different views just because none of them prefer to vote for the Democrats or Republicans.
 
Political parties are "the worst enemy of democratic governments."

They are "potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will subvert the power of the people."
 
Chris Craig said:
Political parties are "the worst enemy of democratic governments."

They are "potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will subvert the power of the people."
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You are only mostly right, sometimes I'm not ambitious.
 
Lanny said:
What you said about more parties.
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All I said is that the current system isn’t turning out great candidates. Unless you think that Trump or the two geezers left standing for the Dems are great, not sure what there is to dispute about that. As far as more parties go, my point is that’s fine in theory, but they still have to find great candidates. Not sure that’s likely to happen because the current political environment isn’t conducive to positive ideas.
 
e_blazer said:
All I said is that the current system isn’t turning out great candidates. Unless you think that Trump or the two geezers left standing for the Dems are great, not sure what there is to dispute about that. As far as more parties go, my point is that’s fine in theory, but they still have to find great candidates. Not sure that’s likely to happen because the current political environment isn’t conducive to positive ideas.
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No, that's not all you said:
"Given the inability of two parties to ferret out even one decent candidate out of 330 million people, are we sure that more parties will increase the odds?"
 
stampedehero said:
Once again, he personifies himself as the classic buffoon.
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But the thing that disturbs me nearly as much as Trump's ineptitude is that most of his supporters STILL refuse to acknowledge it.

He's even referred to himself as a "war time president"...and if that's the case he should be prosecuted as a war criminal for murder.
 
barfo said:
If I register as an independent but continue to vote for Democrats, does that make 3rd parties viable?

I don't think so.

barfo
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It does if you switch to republican and they win!
 
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