Dame asks for trade (And there it is)

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illmatic99 said:
Then we can all understand Dame's frustration. Cronin oversold him and us.
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Joe never said that he would deliver. He said he would push his chips in, and by all accounts he did. Offering the #3 pick and Simons was pushing in the chips. If nobody was willing to take that offer, what more can he do? This isn't poker. If the other player folds you don't get to keep the pot.
 
B-Roy said:
Of course. Don't blame Dame at all. I think our only avenue to get something done was to overpay for a good but flawed player with #3. It would be easier to trade the #5/#6 pick for Siakam/George, but a lot harder to justify with #3. I've said over and over that they chose Scoot over Dame and it is what it is.
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Yup. And Dame also shot us in the foot with his ridiculous statements about not being willing to play with another rookie. The only way that we maybe get Bridges is if we include Shaedon. I haven't heard a single Blazer fan say that they would do that.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Joe never said that he would deliver. He said he would push his chips in, and by all accounts he did. Offering the #3 pick and Simons was pushing in the chips. If nobody was willing to take that offer, what more can he do? This isn't poker. If the other player folds you don't get to keep the pot.
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getting dame to sit out of an all nba caliber season to tank, with a promise of trading the asset we get out of it is dirty. Not to mention selling at the deadline instead of trying to make a playoff push. Every single one of our moves have been the opposite of what Cronin said he would do.
 
illmatic99 said:
getting dame to sit out of an all nba caliber season to tank, with a promise of trading the asset we get out of it is dirty. Not to mention selling at the deadline instead of trying to make a playoff push. Every single one of our moves have been the opposite of what Cronin said he would do.
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Come on man... he TRIED TO TRADE THE ASSET. Multiple reports from multiple sources have confirmed that Joe TRIED to trade the third pick for what some people would consider to be lesser value. Simons and Scoot for Mikale Bridges is LESSER VALUE.

Was he supposed to dump it for crap value simply because he supposedly promised Dame? Offer it up for OG? Shit.... what other garbage veteran could he have traded the third for... KP? Should we have sent out #3 for KP?

You guys are just being ridiculous with this. The Blazers are a business. They have to make smart decisions with their assets. Neil spent 9 years wasting our picks and our assets. Joe is trying not to do that. I'm so sick of hearing this crap about a promise.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Come on man... he TRIED TO TRADE THE ASSET. Multiple reports from multiple sources have confirmed that Joe TRIED to trade the third pick for what some people would consider to be lesser value. Simons and Scoot for Mikale Bridges is LESSER VALUE.

Was he supposed to dump it for crap value simply because he supposedly promised Dame? Offer it up for OG? Shit.... what other garbage veteran could he have traded the third for... KP? Should we have sent out #3 for KP?

You guys are just being ridiculous with this. The Blazers are a business. They have to make smart decisions with their assets. Neil spent 9 years wasting our picks and our assets. Joe is trying not to do that. I'm so sick of hearing this crap about a promise.
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I am not saying what Joe did is wrong. I am saying Dame is 100% justified in his actions. And that if Cronin had not been so outwardly lying about making deals where we might be on the losing end.... We might not be in this place.
 
Natebishop3 said:
He does say this - "I have not heard convincing evidence that a sensible deal exchanging the No. 3 pick (and another player, likely Anfernee Simons) ever materialized for Portland."
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Also the key statement that "Toronto and New Orleans were not ready on draft day to pivot..."
This leads credence that Joe was still working the deals in his mind. Also to Goodwin's claim that the deals were 'dead'.

Considering that we have heard more rumors of Siakam being available - I think the situation on draft night was a 'not right now' discussion.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I'm leaning more and more towards Dame planning his exit for a while now. He got his money last summer and there was no reason to stick around. He was shooting Joe in the foot every chance he got to hurt our leverage in trades, and his mouth pieces have been really doing their best to try to make Joe out as the bad guy to justify Dame asking out.
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Completely agree with this.
 
illmatic99 said:
I am not saying what Joe did is wrong. I am saying Dame is 100% justified in his actions. And that if Cronin had not been so outwardly lying about making deals where we might be on the losing end.... We might not be in this place.
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I don't think Dame is justified. I think Dame repeatedly hurt our leverage in trades, which is on him. I think the reports about Joe lying are coming from Dame's camp and I'm disinclined to believe them.

Dame's camp and the Blazers are currently in a psyops war for the high ground. Dame's people leak reports about Joe lying, and then the Blazers leak reports of other teams being ridiculous in their demands. I'm not sure if I believe any of it at this point. It's all smoke.

Dame wants to get to Miami without hurting his brand. The Blazers want to trade Dame without looking like assholes.
 
B-Roy said:
I'm inclined to believe nothing material was available for that. Maybe KP? Certainly no two way wings.
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KP had the threat of opting out of his contract - so he had control of where he ended up.

The only player traded that would have been in the Ant/23/5 seconds price range was John Collins. He was one of my targets, but Hawks were looking for cap relief (which Portland could not directly provide).
I would have loved a Ant to Orlando for #11, Collins + #11 to Portland, and #23 to Hawks type trade... but we don't know if that was really available.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I don't think Dame is justified. I think Dame repeatedly hurt our leverage in trades, which is on him. I think the reports about Joe lying are coming from Dame's camp and I'm disinclined to believe them.

Dame's camp and the Blazers are currently in a psyops war for the high ground. Dame's people leak reports about Joe lying, and then the Blazers leak reports of other teams being ridiculous in their demands. I'm not sure if I believe any of it at this point. It's all smoke.

Dame wants to get to Miami without hurting his brand. The Blazers want to trade Dame without looking like assholes.
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I mean... We have actual quotes from Cronin telling the whole world he would make deals where we end up giving too much. It's fairly unequivocal that he oversold everybody.
 
illmatic99 said:
I mean... We have actual quotes from Cronin telling the whole world he would make deals where we end up giving too much. It's fairly unequivocal that he oversold everybody.
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And I'm sure that was his intention. It's not a lie.

Was I lying when I said I was going to play in the NBA when I was 12? Sometimes we think or hope we can do things that we can't do. But I'd like to point out that while Cronin was saying those things, Dame was next door saying he would not play with another 19 year old rookie. Basically threatening to ask out. Those two conversations happened on the same day. I never heard Cronin repeat those statements after we got the third pick, but Dame was sure out there giving interviews and reaffirming his expectations and his threats.
 
illmatic99 said:
It doesn't make sense. If Dame ruined our chances at improving the roster, he's also hurting his own chances of a trade to Miami occurring. So what is correct?
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Dame isn't stupid. What did he think would happen when he said he wouldn't play with another rookie? What did he think would happen when he repeatedly said there would be a "separate conversation" if we used the pick?
 
CJ_is_Gone said:
KP had the threat of opting out of his contract - so he had control of where he ended up.

The only player traded that would have been in the Ant/23/5 seconds price range was John Collins. He was one of my targets, but Hawks were looking for cap relief (which Portland could not directly provide).
I would have loved a Ant to Orlando for #11, Collins + #11 to Portland, and #23 to Hawks type trade... but we don't know if that was really available.
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See this is why I am upset. We didn't even bother to do a deal around the margins that could have:

1. Added more balance to the roster.
2. Kept Dame quiet while kicking the can down the road.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I just don't agree.... Dame was pretty specific about wanting pieces to compete and I'm not sure what we could realistically get for Simons/23. We can't seem to get any nibbles on Simons as it is. What's the best case? Another RoCo or Nance caliber veteran? I don't think that's what Dame had in mind. I think he wanted a Robin to his Batman. It doesn't seem like Grant really fits that bill. I think Dame wanted Siakam or Bridges or Brown.
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apparently, if you go by several rumors and 'reports', Dame would have been more than ok with just OG. Meaning he would have settled for less than the 3 players you mentioned...maybe, I guess, but the rumor that Portland went back to Toronto with an offer of Ant + future first(s) sure seems to confirm the assumption

you and I have had enough 'conversations' that you might remember I was opposed to trading #7 last year, and opposed to trading #3 this year. My thinking has been, and still is, that top-10 draft picks, the higher the better, are the only way the Blazers can land elite talent. They won't be signing an elite talent and they won't be trading for one.

More than that though, is I think it's critical a team can string together 4 or 5 top picks over a 4 or 5 year period. You have to maximize the odds. Which is why I'm opposed to trying to field a competitive team next year without Dame. There would be no realistic pay-off IMO, but that's another debate

and it's why I lowered my sights to DDR. I think he was more attainable than the big-3, or OG, and I think he would have satisfied Dame. And while we heard plenty about Portland talking about Siakam-Bridges-Brown-Zion, we never heard a thing about Portland going for any OG level player, other than OG. I think a DDR level player would have satisfied Dame. That we never heard of any targets at that level (OG is below DDR in my view) makes me a little suspicious
 
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illmatic99 said:
I have no problem with using 3. With scoot on the board, there is too much value there.

My biggest issue since then was doing nothing with Ant/23/5 seconds/ free agency. I think Dame woulda been OK with Scoot on board if Cronin managed to do.... Something.... Anything.
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Once the Blazers keep #3 there's no reason to trade lesser pieces in 23/Ant. I don't think there was a player available that would have made Dame happy long term or allowed the franchise to contend soon. Dame saw the team lose with Josh Hart playing, Blazers weren't going to get a better veteran player than that.

I think Cronin basically knew Dame was going to ask out at the Monday meeting on the 27th or whatever. There just wasnt and still isn't any move that helps the team long term and avoids that.
 
wizenheimer said:
and it's why I lowered my sights to DDR. I think he was more attainable than the big-3, or OG, and I think he would have satisfied Dame. And while we heard plenty about Portland talking about Siakam-Bridges-Brown-Zion, we never heard a thing about Portland going for any OG level player, other than OG. I think a DDR level player would have satisfied Dame. That's we never heard of any targets at that level (OG is below DDR in my view) makes me a little suspicious
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exactly my thoughts. I absolutley think there was a window to sufficiently accomplish this two time line thing (however futile it might be) but I get the feeling that Cronin didn't even try. And that's why I place 70% of the blame on him, and the rest on Ownership/Olshey/Dame.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Once the Blazers keep #3 there's no reason to trade lesser pieces in 23/Ant. I don't think there was a player available that would have made Dame happy long term or allowed the franchise to contend soon. Dame saw the team lose with Josh Hart playing, Blazers weren't going to get a better veteran player than that.

I think Cronin basically knew Dame was going to ask out at the Monday meeting on the 27th or whatever. There just wasnt and still isn't any move to that helps the team long term and avoids that.
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If Toronto comes out tomorrow and says OK, we'll take Ant and Murray for OG, does Cronin do it? And will Dame rescind his request?

I remember Kobe and Vanessa looking at private schools in Chicago, then completley forgetting that happened as he won titles in LA two yrs later.
 
I do not think Dame was playing a long con over the last year or so just so he could get that extension. I don't blame Joe anymore. I don't blame Dame for wanting to go where he wants to go and trying to do what he thinks will get him there. I won't blame Joe if he starts the season with a less than ideal situation with Dame on the roster.

I'm done with the blame game it's bullshit. This was a situation where both parties wanted it to work here and it just didn't. I'm hoping that in the near future before training camp we trade Dame and get a decent return.
 
illmatic99 said:
exactly my thoughts. I absolutley think there was a window to sufficiently accomplish this two time line thing (however futile it might be) but I get the feeling that Cronin didn't even try. And that's why I place 70% of the blame on him, and the rest on Ownership/Olshey/Dame.
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To be clear, I think the two timeline thing was stupid. Either go all-in around Dame or rebuild around Scoot and Shae. The problem is that going all-in would have meant trading Shaedon. The only way we win a ring with Dame is if we get a second star. Joe even said it. He was trying to find someone as good as Dame, or even someone 80% as good as Dame. What's the point of wasting assets on someone like OG who wouldn't even realistically get us past the first round? We didn't have enough time or the assets to go all-in and that's 100% on Neil.

This breakup is in the best interest of everyone. Dame can go play for a team that has a legit shot and we can hopefully rebuild the right way around Scoot and Shae. The fact that we're breaking up the marriage is not the problem, it's the WAY we're breaking it up that's unfortunate and sad.
 
illmatic99 said:
getting dame to sit out of an all nba caliber season to tank, with a promise of trading the asset we get out of it is dirty. Not to mention selling at the deadline instead of trying to make a playoff push. Every single one of our moves have been the opposite of what Cronin said he would do.
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Dame is fine to ask for a trade. I don't think Cronin lied, it's just the plan didn't work and he had to do whats best for the team long term. Blazers didn't have any way to contend with Dame. Plans change. Cronin sucks at PR/speaking/selling.
 
Natebishop3 said:
To be clear, I think the two timeline thing was stupid. Either go all-in around Dame or rebuild around Scoot and Shae. The problem is that going all-in would have meant trading Shaedon. The only way we win a ring with Dame is if we get a second star. Joe even said it. He was trying to find someone as good as Dame, or even someone 80% as good as Dame. What's the point of wasting assets on someone like OG who wouldn't even realistically get us past the first round? We didn't have enough time or the assets to go all-in and that's 100% on Neil.

This breakup is in the best interest of everyone. Dame can go play for a team that has a legit shot and we can hopefully rebuild the right way around Scoot and Shae. The fact that we're breaking up the marriage is not the problem, it's the WAY we're breaking it up that's unfortunate and sad.
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This all is fine. But the notion that Dame was biding his time just to make a loud trade demand while secretly killing any opportunity for us to trade is laughable.
 
illmatic99 said:
See this is why I am upset. We didn't even bother to do a deal around the margins that could have:

1. Added more balance to the roster.
2. Kept Dame quiet while kicking the can down the road.
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Many would argue that's good, not bad.
 
illmatic99 said:
This all is fine. But the notion that Dame was biding his time just to make a loud trade demand while secretly killing any opportunity for us to trade is laughable.
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Dame tanking our leverage to force his way out is really no more laughable than Joe secretly rebuilding while lying to Dame's face about trying to make trades.

We don't know if either one is true, or more likely than the other.

I said this in another post, but Occam's Razor seems like the best way of looking at this. The simplest explanation is preferable to one that is more complex. Dame was already getting frustrated with the team for asking him to tank, he wasn't excited about the idea of mentoring another 19 year old rookie, and he vented to the media. Intentionally or unintentionally, his comments hurt our leverage. Joe genuinely wanted to keep Dame, and was doing his best to go out and get players that he thought would help the team win. But as Joe said "whether even internally if we thought that well, hey we’re going in the right direction here, we can get there pretty quickly… if he didn’t feel that it was still a failure on my end.”
 
illmatic99 said:
If Toronto comes out tomorrow and says OK, we'll take Ant and Murray for OG, does Cronin do it? And will Dame rescind his request?

I remember Kobe and Vanessa looking at private schools in Chicago, then completley forgetting that happened as he won titles in LA two yrs later.
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I'd say no, it's too late. Dame wants to move on and Cronin/Vulcans do as well. The Blazers would prefer cap relief and good picks to Dame returning at this point. They want to transition the team to Scoot.

If the Blazers didn't have Scoot then maybe a reconcilation would be possible. Lakers never had a generational player waiting to take over for Kobe.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I just don't agree.... Dame was pretty specific about wanting pieces to compete and I'm not sure what we could realistically get for Simons/23. We can't seem to get any nibbles on Simons as it is. What's the best case? Another RoCo or Nance caliber veteran? I don't think that's what Dame had in mind. I think he wanted a Robin to his Batman. It doesn't seem like Grant really fits that bill. I think Dame wanted Siakam or Bridges or Brown.
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Reverse that. I don't think Dame can be the alpha on a title team. He needs to play with a bigger star. He should be Robin to another Batman.
 
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blazerkor said:
I do not think Dame was playing a long con over the last year or so just so he could get that extension. I don't blame Joe anymore. I don't blame Dame for wanting to go where he wants to go and trying to do what he thinks will get him there. I won't blame Joe if he starts the season with a less than ideal situation with Dame on the roster.

I'm done with the blame game it's bullshit. This was a situation where both parties wanted it to work here and it just didn't. I'm hoping that in the near future before training camp we trade Dame and get a decent return.
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Agreed, I don't think there was any evil motives by either party, it just didn't work out. I expect eventually a trade will be done and everyone will talk positively about how it all eventually worked out as best it could.
 
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