Dame in Milwaukee thread

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UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I think Dame is learning very quickly that it's a cold, hard, snarky world out there away from the cozy, adoring (and accepting) confines of Portlandia. What Blazer fans always knew the hard truth of, the rest of the league is starting to really pay attention to. It will be interesting to see how he responds over time now that the microscope is set to a much higher magnification.......
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I believe a lot of us felt that Damian will realize that the grass isn't necessarily greener in his neighbors yard.

Not saying the Bucks can't turn things over and still win the title, but his lack of defense is a HUGE detriment to whatever team he is on. It's why the whole "Heat Culture" shit never made sense to me, his lack of effort on defense doesn't translate imho.
 
julius said:
I believe a lot of us felt that Damian will realize that the grass isn't necessarily greener in his neighbors yard.

Not saying the Bucks can't turn things over and still win the title, but his lack of defense is a HUGE detriment to whatever team he is on. It's why the whole "Heat Culture" shit never made sense to me, his lack of effort on defense doesn't translate imho.
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Solid points. I think Spoelstra would figure it out in short order.
 
Bucks front office: "Hey bro, we got dame so we can have him and Giannis do some pick and roll, it's gonna be lethal"

Bucks head coach: "so stagger them?"

Bucks front office: "No, I sa..."

Bucks head coach: "and play dame off the ball and have the offense run through giannis."

Bucks front office: "no... Not at..."

Bucks head coach: "and piss off his old coach he's had for years enough to quit the team a week before the season"

Bucks FO:

Bucks head coach:

Bucks FO:

Bucks head coach: "consider it done."
 
julius said:
I believe a lot of us felt that Damian will realize that the grass isn't necessarily greener in his neighbors yard.

Not saying the Bucks can't turn things over and still win the title, but his lack of defense is a HUGE detriment to whatever team he is on. It's why the whole "Heat Culture" shit never made sense to me, his lack of effort on defense doesn't translate imho.
Click to expand...
Also Dame used his offensive burden as a crutch for years. He couldn’t put out the kind of effort on defense to be a really good defender because he had to carry us on offense. Well…. That shouldn’t be the case now.
 
Wizard Mentor said:
He has plenty of time to change the narrative, but I'm starting to think of him as Enes Kanter. Great efficiency, but always ends with a negative +/-.
Click to expand...

career BPM (A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.) + winshares/48:

Dame--> 4.9 + .177

Jrue Holiday--> 1.6 + .102
Khris Middleton--> 0.7 + .117
Devin Booker--> 0.9 + .097
SGA--> 3.2 + .137
Jamal Murray--> 0.5 + .100
Jaylen Brown--> 0.3 + .102
Jayson Tatum--> 3.3 + .148
Jimmy Butler--> 5.0 + .203
CJ--> 1.3 + .101
Brandon Ingram--> -0.1 + .078
Curry--> 6.6 + .203
Klay--> .06 + .105
De'Aaron Fox--> 0.6 + .088
Ja Morant--> 2.8 + .119
Trae Young--> 3.0 + .132
Westbrook--> 4.0 + .139
Chris Paul--> 7.1 + .235
Paul George--> 4.0 + .147
****************************************

I tried to do apples/apples by comparing back-court players, mostly; not guys who spend a lot of time in the paint

IMO, there's a lot of 'bile-induced-revisionist-history' going on in this forum about Dame right now. Kind of a jihad of minimizing the things he did well while exaggerating his flaws. No, he did not "always ends with a negative +/-". If he did his BPM and winshare/48 numbers would NOT be superior, in many cases far superior, to most of those players on that list.

Dame was not a 2-way player; we all know that.

But looking at this list, almost every one of those players played with talent far better than what Dame played with. Jrue played with AD and Giannis; Middleton played with Giannis and Jrue; Tatum & Brown played with each other and a DPOY; Chris Paul played with AD, Harden, Westbrook, Booker. Curry played with Draymond, Klay, and Durant. Dame didn't have that luxury. And looking at that list I don't think any of those players really put a team as lacking in talent on their shoulders and carried it into the playoffs...like Dame did, several times. And almost none of those players had the dual burdens of being the #1 scoring option and the #1 playmaker and facilitator. And carrying those burdens while being one of the most double-teamed and trapped players in the league, with again, no other elite talent to draw the focus of opposing defenses. Another burden Dame had was spending a decade under one of the most incompetent GM's in the league

I get that a lot of people want to go the 'good-riddance' route when it comes to Dame. But a lot of the things being said right now are pure bullshit
 
Things aren't right in Milwaukee with the new coach. The guy wanted to play a scramble type defense with Brook Lopez as center. That has already been abandoned. Lopez has returned to playing in drop coverage.
 
Strenuus said:
Bucks front office: "Hey bro, we got dame so we can have him and Giannis do some pick and roll, it's gonna be lethal"

Bucks head coach: "so stagger them?"

Bucks front office: "No, I sa..."

Bucks head coach: "and play dame off the ball and have the offense run through giannis."

Bucks front office: "no... Not at..."

Bucks head coach: "and piss off his old coach he's had for years enough to quit the team a week before the season"

Bucks FO:

Bucks head coach:

Bucks FO:

Bucks head coach: "consider it done."
Click to expand...
:biglaugh:
 
wizenheimer said:
career BPM (A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.) + winshares/48:

Dame--> 4.9 + .177

Jrue Holiday--> 1.6 + .102
Khris Middleton--> 0.7 + .117
Devin Booker--> 0.9 + .097
SGA--> 3.2 + .137
Jamal Murray--> 0.5 + .100
Jaylen Brown--> 0.3 + .102
Jayson Tatum--> 3.3 + .148
Jimmy Butler--> 5.0 + .203
CJ--> 1.3 + .101
Brandon Ingram--> -0.1 + .078
Curry--> 6.6 + .203
Klay--> .06 + .105
De'Aaron Fox--> 0.6 + .088
Ja Morant--> 2.8 + .119
Trae Young--> 3.0 + .132
Westbrook--> 4.0 + .139
Chris Paul--> 7.1 + .235
Paul George--> 4.0 + .147
****************************************

I tried to do apples/apples by comparing back-court players, mostly; not guys who spend a lot of time in the paint

IMO, there's a lot of 'bile-induced-revisionist-history' going on in this forum about Dame right now. Kind of a jihad of minimizing the things he did well while exaggerating his flaws. No, he did not "always ends with a negative +/-". If he did his BPM and winshare/48 numbers would NOT be superior, in many cases far superior, to most of those players on that list.

Dame was not a 2-way player; we all know that.

But looking at this list, almost every one of those players played with talent far better than what Dame played with. Jrue played with AD and Giannis; Middleton played with Giannis and Jrue; Tatum & Brown played with each other and a DPOY; Chris Paul played with AD, Harden, Westbrook, Booker. Curry played with Draymond, Klay, and Durant. Dame didn't have that luxury. And looking at that list I don't think any of those players really put a team as lacking in talent on their shoulders and carried it into the playoffs...like Dame did, several times. And almost none of those players had the dual burdens of being the #1 scoring option and the #1 playmaker and facilitator. And carrying those burdens while being one of the most double-teamed and trapped players in the league, with again, no other elite talent to draw the focus of opposing defenses. Another burden Dame had was spending a decade under one of the most incompetent GM's in the league

I get that a lot of people want to go the 'good-riddance' route when it comes to Dame. But a lot of the things being said right now are pure bullshit
Click to expand...
The only "good riddance" right now is there are no expectations.

I want expectations.
 
B-Roy said:
This is Dame's likes.
Click to expand...
I get it. I just don’t like any of Dames camp. I’d be happy if Nate Jones and Chris Haynes and Aaron Goodwin stayed the hell away from this team.
 
wizenheimer said:
career BPM (A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.) + winshares/48:

Dame--> 4.9 + .177

Jrue Holiday--> 1.6 + .102
Khris Middleton--> 0.7 + .117
Devin Booker--> 0.9 + .097
SGA--> 3.2 + .137
Jamal Murray--> 0.5 + .100
Jaylen Brown--> 0.3 + .102
Jayson Tatum--> 3.3 + .148
Jimmy Butler--> 5.0 + .203
CJ--> 1.3 + .101
Brandon Ingram--> -0.1 + .078
Curry--> 6.6 + .203
Klay--> .06 + .105
De'Aaron Fox--> 0.6 + .088
Ja Morant--> 2.8 + .119
Trae Young--> 3.0 + .132
Westbrook--> 4.0 + .139
Chris Paul--> 7.1 + .235
Paul George--> 4.0 + .147
****************************************

I tried to do apples/apples by comparing back-court players, mostly; not guys who spend a lot of time in the paint

IMO, there's a lot of 'bile-induced-revisionist-history' going on in this forum about Dame right now. Kind of a jihad of minimizing the things he did well while exaggerating his flaws. No, he did not "always ends with a negative +/-". If he did his BPM and winshare/48 numbers would NOT be superior, in many cases far superior, to most of those players on that list.

Dame was not a 2-way player; we all know that.

But looking at this list, almost every one of those players played with talent far better than what Dame played with. Jrue played with AD and Giannis; Middleton played with Giannis and Jrue; Tatum & Brown played with each other and a DPOY; Chris Paul played with AD, Harden, Westbrook, Booker. Curry played with Draymond, Klay, and Durant. Dame didn't have that luxury. And looking at that list I don't think any of those players really put a team as lacking in talent on their shoulders and carried it into the playoffs...like Dame did, several times. And almost none of those players had the dual burdens of being the #1 scoring option and the #1 playmaker and facilitator. And carrying those burdens while being one of the most double-teamed and trapped players in the league, with again, no other elite talent to draw the focus of opposing defenses. Another burden Dame had was spending a decade under one of the most incompetent GM's in the league

I get that a lot of people want to go the 'good-riddance' route when it comes to Dame. But a lot of the things being said right now are pure bullshit
Click to expand...
When did Chris Paul play with AD or Westbrook? The All Star game?
 
Trailblazers76 said:
I feel bad shitting on Dame because I love the guy, but I'm going to add to it. This article goes into detail about Dame's abysmal defense this year. It pretty much sums up what myself and others have said about Dame's terrible defense and how it infects the identity of a team to the point where he becomes a liability.

Damian Lillard is playing the worst defense of his career, and it might cost more than just the Bucks (msn.com)
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You have to admit that is pretty damning. I'm glad the writer pointed out that the coaching has been awful as well.
 
that one CBS article slamming Dame's defense is sure getting a lot of mileage around. Pretty easy to blame Dame for Milwaukee's defensive issues this season, but the difference between last season and the small sample size of this season are just too glaring to blame on one single player

* last season, Milwaukee ranked 4th in defensive rating; this season, they rank 26th
* last season Milwaukee ranked 11th in opponent FG% at the rim (69.1%); this season they rank 30th (80.6%)
* last Season, Milwaukee ranked 2nd in opponent FT rate at .171; this season 18th at .197
* last season, Milwaukee ranked 8th in opponent 3ptFG% at .354; this season they rank 21st at .377

that last category, 3ptFG%, you might be able to make a case Dame has a large chuck of responsibility there, even though good 3 point defense is based upon covering with rotating to open shooters. But a drop from 4th to 26th in defensive rating is too large to scapegoat just one player.

And FG% at the rim? Dame is not a rim protector or shot blocker or primary in paint patrol. That's interior defense. Now, I imagine that some will try and argue that Dame's point of attack defense is somehow responsible for massive increase in conversion rate by opponent's at the rim. If that were true, then logically, Milwaukee would be giving up a higher rate of shots st the rim this year than last year. BUT, they aren't. Last season they ranked 6th lowest in '%-of-FGA-at-rim' (0-3'). This season...they rank 1st. Opponents aren't penetrating as much (actually suggesting decent point-of-attack defense). But when they do they find clear sailing (suggesting that team reactions and rotations are bollixed)

as for Milwaukee's higher opponent FT rate, Dame is averaging 2 fouls per/100 possessions while his career mark is 2.6. Now, you might be able to argue that teammates are fouling more because Dame drops the defensive ball, so to speak. But that's a theory until you can somehow prove it

Milwaukee's season is 5 games long and they are 3-2. The first thing about that is that any sample size conclusions anybody makes are kind of dumb. But the Bucks have had 2 close wins, one by a point and another by 5 points. Dame scored 69 points in those two wins with a TS% over 72%. In the two losses, the Bucks lost by an average of 18 points. Those are team losses, not one-man losses

Milwaukee has made two major changes: Dame for Jrue, and a new head coach. Not surprising that some here are blaming Dame for Milwaukee's issues (if they actually have any), and not the new HC. Dame went from a team and systems he'd been in for 11 seasons to a new team, with an established pecking order, that is trying to implement new schemes under a brand new HC who has never been a HC before. So yeah, blame Dame for it all
 
wizenheimer said:
that one CBS article slamming Dame's defense is sure getting a lot of mileage around. Pretty easy to blame Dame for Milwaukee's defensive issues this season, but the difference between last season and the small sample size of this season are just too glaring to blame on one single player

* last season, Milwaukee ranked 4th in defensive rating; this season, they rank 26th
* last season Milwaukee ranked 11th in opponent FG% at the rim (69.1%); this season they rank 30th (80.6%)
* last Season, Milwaukee ranked 2nd in opponent FT rate at .171; this season 18th at .197
* last season, Milwaukee ranked 8th in opponent 3ptFG% at .354; this season they rank 21st at .377

that last category, 3ptFG%, you might be able to make a case Dame has a large chuck of responsibility there, even though good 3 point defense is based upon covering with rotating to open shooters. But a drop from 4th to 26th in defensive rating is too large to scapegoat just one player.

And FG% at the rim? Dame is not a rim protector or shot blocker or primary in paint patrol. That's interior defense. Now, I imagine that some will try and argue that Dame's point of attack defense is somehow responsible for massive increase in conversion rate by opponent's at the rim. If that were true, then logically, Milwaukee would be giving up a higher rate of shots st the rim this year than last year. BUT, they aren't. Last season they ranked 6th lowest in '%-of-FGA-at-rim' (0-3'). This season...they rank 1st. Opponents aren't penetrating as much (actually suggesting decent point-of-attack defense). But when they do they find clear sailing (suggesting that team reactions and rotations are bollixed)

as for Milwaukee's higher opponent FT rate, Dame is averaging 2 fouls per/100 possessions while his career mark is 2.6. Now, you might be able to argue that teammates are fouling more because Dame drops the defensive ball, so to speak. But that's a theory until you can somehow prove it

Milwaukee's season is 5 games long and they are 3-2. The first thing about that is that any sample size conclusions anybody makes are kind of dumb. But the Bucks have had 2 close wins, one by a point and another by 5 points. Dame scored 69 points in those two wins with a TS% over 72%. In the two losses, the Bucks lost by an average of 18 points. Those are team losses, not one-man losses

Milwaukee has made two major changes: Dame for Jrue, and a new head coach. Not surprising that some here are blaming Dame for Milwaukee's issues (if they actually have any), and not the new HC. Dame went from a team and systems he'd been in for 11 seasons to a new team, with an established pecking order, that is trying to implement new schemes under a brand new HC who has never been a HC before. So yeah, blame Dame for it all
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Their HC reminds me a lot of Chauncey…. And not in a good way.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Their HC reminds me a lot of Chauncey…. And not in a good way.
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I've only seen one of their games and Dame spent lots of time it off-the-ball on offense, and most of that was parked in spots behind the arc. My hunch is that Dame is like most players and that's if he's not engaged on offense, he won't be very engaged on defense

from what was reported. the Griffin/Stotts thing was not a good recommendation for Griffin
 
wizenheimer said:
I've only seen one of their games and Dame spent lots of time it off-the-ball on offense, and most of that was parked in spots behind the arc. My hunch is that Dame is like most players and that's if he's not engaged on offense, he won't be very engaged on defense

from what was reported. the Griffin/Stotts thing was not a good recommendation for Griffin
Click to expand...

He WAS the offense in Portland and still wasn't engaged on defense. I'm not sure being less engaged is the reason for why he's doing basically the same thing he has done for the most part throughout his career.
 
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