OT Defunding the police, the good and the bad from a city that did it.

[SlyPokerDog]

@dviss1
Hey Ive been thinking maybe Im not doing a good job of compartmentalizing the difference between BLM the movement and BLM the organization. Ive said numerous times there is a lot about the movement Im for. Even defunding the police to an extent. Ive heard some arguing for abolishing them completely, not on board with that unless there is some sort of replacement plan for law enforcement / peace officers - though with (a lot) more accountability then they have now. - Giving Black people equity, and equality and not having systems intended to hold them back of course I think those are good ideas. I know that politically many of the objectives of the BLM organization you probably agree with more than I do just because we have different perspectives. Using it as a front to fund Bidens campaign, the fact its a not a charity and a private entity meaning they can do whatever they want with funds, some of that, Im not on board with. I was talking to some Black and a couple Asian friends of mine, some are for whats going on some are against, but I think the point I really took away is the movement itself, empowering black communities, being able to say Black Lives Matter you dont have to be on board with all the political things to recognize that there are very good things coming from the protests and I support many of them.

Sorry if what I said came off as combative or offensive. I do support the movement overall, even if I think some of the political aspects arent really for me.

Please give this a listen. @ABM and enjoyed it. This explains the good and bad about defunding the police from a city that was the first to do it. Very informative. It's from the people who actually did it.

https://play.google.com/music/liste...jStMI8qcHFl78#/ps/Ib6qd4lcx7srqz7u5qsigzsgpge

In this special episode of Stay Tuned, “The Camden Policing Model,” former New Jersey Attorney General and CAFE Insider co-host Anne Milgram interviews former Camden Police Chief Scott Thomson, whose reimagining of law enforcement in Camden has become a national model. Anne and Chief Thomson discuss their extensive collaboration in implementing Camden’s reforms, the challenges of state-level political ecosystems, and the lessons that they take as we work to reimagine policing across the country.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Please give this a listen. @ABM and enjoyed it. This explains the good and bad about defunding the police from a city that was the first to do it. Very informative. It's from the people who actually did it.

https://play.google.com/music/liste...jStMI8qcHFl78#/ps/Ib6qd4lcx7srqz7u5qsigzsgpge

In this special episode of Stay Tuned, “The Camden Policing Model,” former New Jersey Attorney General and CAFE Insider co-host Anne Milgram interviews former Camden Police Chief Scott Thomson, whose reimagining of law enforcement in Camden has become a national model. Anne and Chief Thomson discuss their extensive collaboration in implementing Camden’s reforms, the challenges of state-level political ecosystems, and the lessons that they take as we work to reimagine policing across the country.

BTW, Preet is a great podcast to listen to. He is the former head of the Southern District of New York. They handle the big federal cases including Epstein, El Chapo, etc. He gives a unique insight to how federal prosecutions work and many of the legal questions the press gets wrong.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/preetbharara

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Please give this a listen. @ABM and enjoyed it. This explains the good and bad about defunding the police from a city that was the first to do it. Very informative. It's from the people who actually did it.

https://play.google.com/music/liste...jStMI8qcHFl78#/ps/Ib6qd4lcx7srqz7u5qsigzsgpge

In this special episode of Stay Tuned, “The Camden Policing Model,” former New Jersey Attorney General and CAFE Insider co-host Anne Milgram interviews former Camden Police Chief Scott Thomson, whose reimagining of law enforcement in Camden has become a national model. Anne and Chief Thomson discuss their extensive collaboration in implementing Camden’s reforms, the challenges of state-level political ecosystems, and the lessons that they take as we work to reimagine policing across the country.

Im not against defunding the police to an extent. Especially diverting funds to things that help the community move forward. There are examples of unpoliced areas not doing so well and basically just Being ‘ran’ by cartels, and things like that. And abolishing the police completely, like I said if there’s another plan then Im logically ok with that too.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Im not against defunding the police to an extent. Especially diverting funds to things that help the community move forward. There are examples of unpoliced areas not doing so well and basically just Being ‘ran’ by cartels, and things like that. And abolishing the police completely, like I said if there’s another plan then Im logically ok with that too.

I never said you were or weren't for anything. I'm just providing something that I thought was interesting and directly dealt with what you're talking about.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I moved these posts to their own thread so maybe if a few of you take the time to listen we can have a more accurate discussion.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I never said you were or weren't for anything. I'm just providing something that I thought was interesting and directly dealt with what you're talking about.

What Dviss posted yesterday for defunding the police seemed mostly ok. Maybe I read it wrong, but it was like take a lot of these funds put them into other things that will help our communities stronger, and need less policed.

 

[Hoopguru]

I’m all for The Black Lives movement for addressing
Social injustice. And peaceful marches are good and effective. But if their leadership starts pushing Marxism which I understand they endorse, then I separate the two supporting one but not the other.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I’m all for The Black Lives movement for addressing
Social injustice. And peaceful marches are good and effective. But if their leadership starts pushing Marxism which I understand they endorse, then I separate the two supporting one but not the other.

This is BLM's website. No where do they mention anything Marxist.

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision

 

[riverman]

I’m all for The Black Lives movement for addressing
Social injustice. And peaceful marches are good and effective. But if their leadership starts pushing Marxism which I understand they endorse, then I separate the two supporting one but not the other.

Marxism has never existed as a form of govt...facism and socialism have....there is value in some of the teaching of Marx but it's idealistic in that people couldn't actually accept non materialistic, co-opted social structure....Mao wasn't able to do it...Stalin wasn't able to do it either....it's cold war fear when actually it's a book to give some hope to the poorest in face of insurmountable greed...there's things to learn about from the teachings...it's a naturally attracting philosophy for disenfranchised people that doesn't mean they are the enemy....America has a communist party...don't get to hear from them but we have one...this is not a game changer for BLM ….the Black Panthers taught elements of Marxism to their contingency. Let's not go back to McCarthyism..democracy should be inclusive..if you can be a Nazi you can follow the teaching of Marx or Christianity or whatever the hell you want in a free society

 

[GhostOfPGA]

Actually you brought the derail/religion into the discussion with your reply to me.

I’m still gonna call it the civil war just like I say Rose Garden, it’s dumb to change it but they’re gonna do it anyway.

I suggest they call it The WARegon Derby

I’m trying to think of any other country in the America’s that have America in their actual country name like we do.

How about they keep the names of former presidents and IF new schools are built they can name them what you listed. It’s not complicated.

No matter what, no matter who, every human in history is inherently flawed. Now, do we condemn them, or do we celebrate the good they did in their time?

They know the risk they’re taking, it’s a violent game. Abolishing it does nothing but hurt young men with immense talent who are potentially going to go to college AND potentially make millions.

That sucks for him and many others but the game has changed, it’s so much safer now and only getting better. Even if they don’t go pro they are able to graduate from a top flight school so, still I’d say it’s worth the risk.

God damn y’all really derailed this thread into some weird religious shit lol back to the main point...

changing the name of the game is still dumb, and always will be dumb, but it’s gonna happen, so what can you do?

these are all my posts in the thread, not one was in response to you? So maybe check your facts old man Simpson?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

these are all my posts in the thread, not one was in response to you? So maybe check your facts old man Simpson?

My bad.

I thought that was Dviss who posted.

Again, I'm very sorry. No insult was ever meant or intended.

I have deleted the offending post.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

This is BLM's website. No where do they mention anything Marxist.

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision

The co-founder of the BLM organization is on record saying they are trained Marxists. Not judging it, just stating that's what she said.

 

[riverman]

The co-founder of the BLM organization is on record saying they are trained Marxists. Not judging it, just stating that's what she said.

So what? It's a philosophy not a political organization....we live in a democracy....I don't demand that Religious practitioners give up their beliefs because they are different from mine. You are free to practice any school of thought you want to here...let's not become McCarthyists and it's time for white folks to respect the choices of black folks and allow them to exercise whatever they wish.....the time for commie vs Christian is over

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

So what? It's a philosophy not a political organization....we live in a democracy....I don't demand that Religious practitioners give up their beliefs because they are different from mine. You are free to practice any school of thought you want to here...let's not become McCarthyists

Did I ever imply they couldnt believe what they wanted? No but people are also free to support or not support organizations with ideologies they dont believe in. How many catholic churches have you given money too lately? Probably none because you have the freedom to make decisions and informed decisions. People can support BLM, the movement or the organization if they want too, but there’s nothing wrong with knowing who you’re supporting. I never said they couldnt have whatever ideology they want too.

 

[riverman]

Did I ever imply they couldnt believe what they wanted? No but people are also free to support or not support organizations with ideologies they dont believe in. How many catholic churches have you given money too lately? Probably none because you have the freedom to make decisions and informed decisions. People can support BLM, the movement or the organization if they want too, but there’s nothing wrong with knowing who you’re supporting. I never said they couldnt have whatever ideology they want too.

Then why would you post a black woman's speaking of her beliefs as opposed to her cause? I've seen several posts using this talking point as an anti BLM issue...and it is none of our business...I believe you put this video up to draw attention to her philosophical interests....it leads to commie vs Christian McCarthyism in my view and now is a terrible time to introduce that into the racial profiling protests

 

[riverman]

How many catholic churches have you given money too lately?

I donate to the TsiChi Buddhist foundation but it's not anybody's business either...I'm not a Christian...I also volunteered for many years to distribute food to the elderly

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Then why would you post a black woman's speaking of her beliefs as opposed to her cause? I've seen several posts using this talking point as an anti BLM issue...and it is none of our business...I believe you put this video up to draw attention to her philosophical interests....

Well you can project and make up whatever motives you want. I literally replied to a post about their beliefs as an organization with what their own founder said. I didnt say or imply any of the stuff you’re coming up with.

 

[riverman]

Well you can project and make up whatever motives you want. I literally replied to a post about their beliefs as an organization with what their own founder said. I didnt say or imply any of the stuff you’re coming up with.

I sure didn't ask you what church you donate to....I don't think that's me projecting here but I don't think you're a malicious person or have bad intentions...it's the subject of Marxism that's really hard to discuss in this country because people confuse what it means....if I'm projecting that, I apologize but if I point at any group that is fueling division these days it's fundamentalist evangelicals....BLM is doing something I'm very proud of and I'm here to defend their right to be who they are and exercise their freedoms...if you're with me here, we're not in disagreement at all.
It's also fine to disagree.

 

[Minstrel]

Did I ever imply they couldnt believe what they wanted? No but people are also free to support or not support organizations with ideologies they dont believe in.

The point is that BLM isn't a "Marxist organization." They're an organization with stated aims on their website (none of which are Marxism) who have a co-founder who believes in it. Supporting BLM isn't supporting Marxism in any way.

 

[yankeesince59]

My bad.

I thought that was Dviss who posted.

Again, I'm very sorry. No insult was ever meant or intended.

I have deleted the offending post.

Don't know all the details, but this is one of the finest posts I've read in awhile...good to see some good ole humility for a change...regardless if it is a moderator or not.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Well you can project and make up whatever motives you want. I literally replied to a post about their beliefs as an organization with what their own founder said. I didnt say or imply any of the stuff you’re coming up with.

So which Marxist ideologies should be removed from the suggestions and proposals in the link that I provided?

I'm guessing the Marxist one you're most concerned with is number 8. The other 9 on their face don't seem blatantly Marxist but I have no problem going over each one with you to find and remove the Marxist parts so we can continue to have an informed discussion.



But number 8 seems to be the most marxist since policing for profit is capitalism.

This is from the BLM site:

Police should be working to keep people safe, not contributing to a system that profits from stopping, searching, ticketing, arresting and incarcerating people.
POLICY SOLUTIONS

End police department quotas for tickets and arrests

Ban police departments from using ticket or arrest quotas to evaluate the performance of police officers

(Ex: Illinois law)

Limit fines and fees for low-income people

Pass policies requiring local governments to:

• ban issuing fines or arrest warrants for civilians who fail to appear in court for a traffic citation (Ex: Ferguson Policy)
• ban generating more than 10% of total municipal revenue from fines and fees (Ex: Missouri law)
• allow judges discretion to waive fines and fees for low-income people or initiate payment plans (Ex: Pennsylvania law)
• prohibit courts from ordering individuals on parole or probation to pay supervision fees and other correctional fees

Prevent police from taking the money or property of innocent people

Prohibit police from:

• seizing property of civilians (i.e. civil forfeiture) unless they are convicted of a crime and the state establishes by clear and convincing evidence that the property is subject to forfeiture
• keeping any property that has legally been forfeited (instead, this property should go to a general fund)
• participating in the federal Equitable Sharing program that allows police to engage in civil asset forfeiture

(Ex: New Mexico law)

Require police departments to bear the cost of misconduct

• Require the cost of misconduct settlements to be paid out of the police department budget instead of the City's general fund
• Restrict police departments from receiving more money from the general fund when they go over-budget on lawsuit payments

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Don't know all the details, but this is one of the finest posts I've read in awhile...good to see some good ole humility for a change...regardless if it is a moderator or not.

It was an honest mistake. Didn't mean to single him out. My bad. I own.

 

[Lanny]

Don't know all the details, but this is one of the finest posts I've read in awhile...good to see some good ole humility for a change...regardless if it is a moderator or not.

Good, I want my fifty bucks.

 

[Hoopguru]

Marxism has never existed as a form of govt...facism and socialism have....there is value in some of the teaching of Marx but it's idealistic in that people couldn't actually accept non materialistic, co-opted social structure....Mao wasn't able to do it...Stalin wasn't able to do it either....it's cold war fear when actually it's a book to give some hope to the poorest in face of insurmountable greed...there's things to learn about from the teachings...it's a naturally attracting philosophy for disenfranchised people that doesn't mean they are the enemy....America has a communist party...don't get to hear from them but we have one...this is not a game changer for BLM ….the Black Panthers taught elements of Marxism to their contingency. Let's not go back to McCarthyism..democracy should be inclusive..if you can be a Nazi you can follow the teaching of Marx or Christianity or whatever the hell you want in a free society

All for a free democratic society.
Stalin & Mao’s communism suppressed and murdered millions. Because like Hitler the power wasn’t with the people but with the tyrannical government leaders that lived the high life and no one else had opportunities.
I’m for social programs funded by tax payers but no way I’m for a form of communism.

 

[riverman]

but no way I’m for a form of communism.

communism as a national system always fails....socialistic democracy is working all over the world....China isn't communist anymore nor is Russia...people are naturally capitalists...socialism keeps poverty from occurring for the disenfranchised in society and funds public services we've enjoyed all our lives in America....I'm for tolerating diversity and not creating cold wars over political ideologies

 

[riverman]

All for a free democratic society.
Stalin & Mao’s communism suppressed and murdered millions. Because like Hitler the power wasn’t with the people but with the tyrannical government leaders that lived the high life and no one else had opportunities.
I’m for social programs funded by tax payers but no way I’m for a form of communism.

capitalism has been a driving force for genocide as well....Native American genocide fueled by stealing lands and murdering people..driving them off their lands...slavery...profit from abusing millions of people....we're no better in the view of history than South Africa or Australia where aboriginals were hunted for sport or many sad chapters in the world...I find it arrogant to think we've traveled some high moral road to get where we are

 

[Lanny]

communism as a national system always fails....socialistic democracy is working all over the world....China isn't communist anymore nor is Russia...people are naturally capitalists...socialism keeps poverty from occurring for the disenfranchised in society and funds public services we've enjoyed all our lives in America....I'm for tolerating diversity and not creating cold wars over political ideologies

China's form of government is communist in the way it's chosen. It all leads to totalitarianism.

 

[Hoopguru]

capitalism has been a driving force for genocide as well....Native American genocide fueled by stealing lands and murdering people..driving them off their lands...slavery...profit from abusing millions of people....we're no better in the view of history than South Africa or Australia where aboriginals were hunted for sport or many sad chapters in the world...I find it arrogant to think we've traveled some high moral road to get where we are

I always favor more freedom and responsibility for people to make their choices. I realize that it takes a great balance to keep things stable and healthy.
For me it still comes down to freedom and liberty for people and for government to be fiscally responsible and always provide social assistance for those in need. I think people in our Country can be generous and charitable in many ways. We got to keep it going that way! Peace

 

[Chris Craig]

Good, I want my fifty bucks.

 

[CupWizier]

My bad.

I thought that was Dviss who posted.

Again, I'm very sorry. No insult was ever meant or intended.

I have deleted the offending post.

BAN THE MOD