OT Don't Be Dissin' The American Flag

[SlyPokerDog]

Seriously. He's become one of the more intolerable posters here. At least @MARIS61 doesn't try to mask his madness

Come on man, he's fine. He brings a different viewpoint. One you may not agree with but one that is necessary. It would be very very boring in the OT section if everyone agreed.

Calling him intolerable is a personal insult.

And most importantly, this is a Blazer forum and he is one of the biggest Blazer fans around.

So no matter what you two have that in common.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

I think, "issues of the heart", or however you'd like to put it, human nature? It definitely plays a part in it, and it played a part in why those systems are there, to begin with too. However changing the system's to be about justice is the place to start, because changing human nature is generational, and much harder (if not impossible) to do.
It's why protesting those systems is ok and good and a big part of what makes a society move forward. Making the systems better will not "make it all go away", it will mean that justice is universal across race, world-views, sexuality, gender, etc. At least if the system is good.

TBF, I almost always love your take on a subject. It’s obvious you give your responses based on a good deal of thought and reflection. And I for one appreciate it. But your scrotum has to ache sometimes from trying to straddle the fence on so many issues. As my dearly missed mother taught me from a young age, there’s two sides to every story. I’m just not so sure there’s really an honest answer on the other side of this story...............

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

TB, I almost always love your take on a subject. It’s obvious you give your responses based on a good deal of thought and reflection. And I for one appreciate it. But your scrotum has to ache sometimes from trying to straddle the fence on so many issues. As my dearly missed mother taught me from a young age, there’s two sides to every story. I’m just not so sure there’s really an honest answer on the other side of this story...............

Nah my scrotum aches because I had a vasectomy a week and a half ago.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here though. I am saying that protests are good, and that yeah a change of heart is needed, but that likely won't come and if it does it won't be for a long time. So providing systems that give justice to all is the place to start. I'm not sure how that is riding the fence.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Nah my scrotum aches because I had a vasectomy a week and a half ago.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here though. I am saying that protests are good, and that yeah a change of heart is needed, but that likely won't come and if it does it won't be for a long time. So providing systems that give justice to all is the place to start. I'm not sure how that is riding the fence.

Okay, maybe it’s because you always try to be so reasonable and mellow. That’s makes you a unicorn in the OT (and even Blazers) section......It’s like swinging at a change up. Do you even have an inner dickhead???? (Aside from the one you might show your wife and kids I meant)....if not you’re the only one of us who doesn’t.....

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Okay, maybe it’s because you always try to be so reasonable and mellow. That’s makes you a unicorn in the OT (and even Blazers) section......It’s like swinging at a change up. Do you even have an inner dickhead???? (Aside from the one you might show your wife and kids I meant)....if not you’re the only one of us who doesn’t.....

lol. I have no idea how to respond to this. I try to look at and understand different perspectives while making my opinions on things. Just because I can understand how someone got to their opinion doesn't mean I agree with it. It just means I have tried to put myself in their shoes and usually I'd say it helps me to not be angry or upset for them having the opinion they have. I usually state my opinions, while at the same time acknowledging that I understand why they may think differently, not because I'm trying to straddle the fence of what I believe, but because IMO it puts both me and the other party involved in a place where we can talk about our differences in a constructive manner. Of course, some people hold beliefs that I either just 100% disagree with or, or I simply can't wrap my head around it, but I still make an attempt to see things outside of just my own perspective. I know that has a tendency to make it sound like I'm riding the fence, but I certainly have opinions and some are very strong, and stubborn ones.
There are also just many things in life, that I frankly don't have all the answers for or even relatively close, what exactly is the point in having a strong opinion on something that I have a very limited scope on. If those things come up, I tend to think my job is to ask questions not to get super opinionated. Sometimes I ask the wrong questions though.

Anyways that's my counseling session for the day. Do I pay you on Paypal? lol

 

[ABM]

Hold on, are you actually stating that systemic racism, and police brutality towards black people, where the police get away with *MURDER*, is just an issue of the heart?

I don't know how to respond to that. I mean, I'm literally at a loss for words on how to respond to something that is so far off base from reality.

This thread has morphed into so many directions, it's very difficult to stay on point - especially, since it's, evidently, me against the collective masses. No, racism in the context of bigotry is one thing...and a matter of the heart...and more of what I've been alluding to in the thread.

Police brutality (while at its essence may be a matter of the heart, as well) is criminal, plain and simple, and needs to be dealt with as such.

Obama had to deal with similar. I believe he made some strides, but not certain. At any rate, here are a couple of pieces I found on the matter...

https://www.nfg.org/news/breaking-f...-obama-demand-end-police-brutality-nationwide

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ama-us-racism-police-brutality-failed-victims

 

[Lanny]

As he proudly flies a flag in his truck.....

I've got a close Right wing friend who lives there and drives a pickup truck but he would never do that and that photo is not of him. He saved my life one time when I was gonna drown in the Coos River. That was about 45 years ago. Nicest guy I've ever known and I know only really nice people. Take Sly for instance. No, seriously, take Sly somewhere.
Just a note here for those who can't deduce anything. I would never say these things about Sly if I didn't have the highest respect for him. Okay, we've got that behind us and can now feel free to resume Sly bashing.

 

[ABM]

The Chicago Bears' Allen Robinson had some interesting words:

https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-players-start-kneeling-again-003354538.html

.....Robinson raised the question that, perhaps unsurprisingly enough, was echoed by the other Bears players who talked with media on Wednesday afternoon. It's undeniably true that embracing peaceful protests is still something that NFL subculture struggles mightily with, but what comes next isn't as clear. Do more players take a knee this fall? How will the NFL react? Is taking a knee still the most practical form of protest? These are but a few of the tough issues lying squarely on the player's shoulders.

"I haven't thought about it, I really haven't considered it," Hicks said. "Do I see it being a possibility? It could be, it could be. I guess in my mind, I want another step. I want to see something bigger, different. That already turned out negatively, and we understood what he meant by it. I will say this: let's make the situation better. I'll choose change over having to take another knee. I'd rather we just move on."...

 

[Lanny]

Great work.

I also candidly and vulnerably shared anecdotes from my past, some of my upbringing and the incredible legacy set before me by my parents. I also shared that I agreed with @Lanny 's response in that I will always have my hand over my heart and sing the national anthem, while also taking the knee if that occasion arose.

Thanks for telling me what I am, though.

I've always known the good in you, ABM and nobody has to remind me of that. That doesn't mean I have to agree with your politics so long as I know your root values.

 

[ABM]

I've always known the good in you, ABM and nobody has to remind me of that. That doesn't mean I have to agree with your politics so long as I know your root values.

Ditto, Lanny. I think we can operate nicely above the fray.

 

[Lanny]

It's really time to bring Santa Claus into this conversation! Every mall in America gets a lap!
View attachment 31890

Is that Billy Bob?

 

[riverman]

Cool. Indeed, Santa may very well make a great President!

Apparently you've never seen Billy Bob Thornton's "Santa"

 

[riverman]

Obama had to deal with similar. I believe he made some strides, but not certain

,

Read your post and then try to remember that ​

Obama became the first black president in American history....then question whether or not he made strides for black people? Dude...…...

 

[ABM]

,

Read your post and then try to remember that ​

Obama became the first black president in American history....then question whether or not he made strides for black people? Dude...…...

He sure was. And he had his own set of problems and setbacks as it related to improving race relations.

 

[riverman]

He sure was. And he had his own set of problems and setbacks as it related to improving race relations.

He's still active in race relations and as grass roots as you can get....he had no support across the aisle by the way, if you're wondering...the GOP held him back from nominating Supreme Court judges the last year of his presidency so Trump could stack the courts....he didn't have bipartisan cooperation at all for 8 years...Joe was the guy who worked across the aisle the most in that cabinet..but Joe is a white guy, right? Nobody questioning his birth certificate as I remember...

 

[Lanny]

OK, so thru the protests, rules and regulations are then made to fix things? Rules and regulations don't change hearts. People do. And that's the reason I'm personally getting involved . It's what my dad did as related way above in here. Grass roots, ground level productive activism is where it's at with me. Again,, the players can take a knee. That's fine.

That's good, ABM but some people have to be dragged kicking and screaming into treating minorities even a tiny bit more decently.

 

[riverman]

Nah my scrotum aches because I had a vasectomy a week and a half ago.

BIOFREEZE!

 

[Lanny]

Seriously. He's become one of the more intolerable posters here. At least @MARIS61 doesn't try to mask his madness

Who are you referring to? I've tried to find the trail of posts on this subject and have trouble going far enough back to figure it out.

 

[Hoopguru]

lol. I have no idea how to respond to this. I try to look at and understand different perspectives while making my opinions on things. Just because I can understand how someone got to their opinion doesn't mean I agree with it. It just means I have tried to put myself in their shoes and usually I'd say it helps me to not be angry or upset for them having the opinion they have. I usually state my opinions, while at the same time acknowledging that I understand why they may think differently, not because I'm trying to straddle the fence of what I believe, but because IMO it puts both me and the other party involved in a place where we can talk about our differences in a constructive manner. Of course, some people hold beliefs that I either just 100% disagree with or, or I simply can't wrap my head around it, but I still make an attempt to see things outside of just my own perspective. I know that has a tendency to make it sound like I'm riding the fence, but I certainly have opinions and some are very strong, and stubborn ones.
There are also just many things in life, that I frankly don't have all the answers for or even relatively close, what exactly is the point in having a strong opinion on something that I have a very limited scope on. If those things come up, I tend to think my job is to ask questions not to get super opinionated. Sometimes I ask the wrong questions though.

Anyways that's my counseling session for the day. Do I pay you on Paypal? lol

"It just means I have tried to put myself in their shoes and usually I'd say it helps me to not be angry or upset for them having the opinion they have. I usually state my opinions, while at the same time acknowledging that I understand why they may think differently, not because I'm trying to straddle the fence of what I believe, but because IMO it puts both me and the other party involved in a place where we can talk about our differences in a constructive manner. "

Powerful and how more people should approach communication with regards to all subjects for dsicussion.

 

[ABM]

Just wait until cities begin defunding their respective police departments. The push is on...

 

[Minstrel]

Just wait until cities begin defunding their respective police departments.

Is that a bad thing? It's not clear that police are the right way to address all crime. Policework has been a miserable failure in the drug war, for example. Maybe we need to approach that another way. Maybe instead of having high crime rates and employing lots of police to fight that, we should invest in communities, make them more prosperous and safer, reducing the crime from that end, thus requiring less police for less committed crimes. While we probably still want some investigative units, maybe we don't actually want cops on a beat, especially in communities they don't understand or care about. Maybe we want trained social workers to be connected to communities, to understand their needs, solve some of the problems and represent their communities to city councils and the like.

I think the goal of most is not to completely remove all police everywhere. But I think we have to look at trying to address the root causes of crime and invest on that end, rather than investing in more and more police for more and more crime. Fund better and safer communities and defund a police force that we don't need to be as large.

 

[riverman]

Peace officers, not Swat teams. Need to raise the bar and attract talent to the profession ..maybe community peace officers with funding that aren't fueled by quotas and courts and jails but by public accountability..redefine the profession with emphasis on healthy community....peace officers should be immediately charged with caring for the homeless population and the attorney general should be in charge of eliminating organized crime and gang presence in our communities..every neighborhood needs a peace force that is stronger than the criminal element...hell we all need a new playbook for public safety

 

[ABM]

Is that a bad thing? It's not clear that police are the right way to address all crime. Policework has been a miserable failure in the drug war, for example. Maybe we need to approach that another way. Maybe instead of having high crime rates and employing lots of police to fight that, we should invest in communities, make them more prosperous and safer, reducing the crime from that end, thus requiring less police for less committed crimes. While we probably still want some investigative units, maybe we don't actually want cops on a beat, especially in communities they don't understand or care about. Maybe we want trained social workers to be connected to communities, to understand their needs, solve some of the problems and represent their communities to city councils and the like.

I think the goal of most is not to completely remove all police everywhere. But I think we have to look at trying to address the root causes of crime and invest on that end, rather than investing in more and more police for more and more crime. Fund better and safer communities and defund a police force that we don't need to be as large.

It's an interesting dilemma, Minstrel. You may be right on some of these counts. I absolutely agree with you that sometimes it's better to have a fence at the top of the hill, as opposed to a hospital at the bottom. In other words, digging in addressing the root causes of crime seems like a good approach. When I was that teenager in North Portland, my dad made me go to the community teen center their church had developed. I made a lot of friends there. It was a proactive and productive way to help keep these teens preoccupied and became a very success venture.

 

[Hoopguru]

It's an interesting dilemma, Minstrel. You may be right on some of these counts. I absolutely agree with you that sometimes it's better to have a fence at the top of the hill, as opposed to a hospital at the bottom. In other words, digging in addressing the root causes of crime seems like a good approach. When I was that teenager in North Portland, my dad made me go to the community teen center their church had developed. I made a lot of friends there. It was a proactive and productive way to help keep these teens preoccupied and became a very success venture.

I also grew up in North Portland through 6th grade. I loved it there and was pissed when my pop moved us to the suburbs. My mom went to North Catholic & Roosevelt, pop went to Jeff, thats where I was and wanted to go.

 

[Hoopguru]

I also grew up in North Portland through 6th grade. I loved it there and was pissed when my pop moved us to the suburbs. My mom went to North Catholic & Roosevelt, pop went to Jeff, thats where I was and wanted to go.

I went from playing little league rules to Connie Mack farm ball where you could lead off, & steal, squeeze plays too.

 

[lawai'a]

Is that a bad thing? It's not clear that police are the right way to address all crime. Policework has been a miserable failure in the drug war, for example. Maybe we need to approach that another way. Maybe instead of having high crime rates and employing lots of police to fight that, we should invest in communities, make them more prosperous and safer, reducing the crime from that end, thus requiring less police for less committed crimes. While we probably still want some investigative units, maybe we don't actually want cops on a beat, especially in communities they don't understand or care about. Maybe we want trained social workers to be connected to communities, to understand their needs, solve some of the problems and represent their communities to city councils and the like.

I think the goal of most is not to completely remove all police everywhere. But I think we have to look at trying to address the root causes of crime and invest on that end, rather than investing in more and more police for more and more crime. Fund better and safer communities and defund a police force that we don't need to be as large.

i agree with the goals established by your suggestions, but am not convinced about the practicalities. i have stated in past opinions that i believe opportunity to be one of the fundamental building blocks to an equitable solution for many of society's ills. many of your suggestions address this in some manner, yet, especially in relation to the drug war, you haven't convinced me that it will go away on it's own quite so simply.
because of the very nature of the problem, the size and scope of it's influence, we need a much broader approach that will include a continued police participation if for no other reason than to protect the citizens of the communities impacted most severely by the violence. the organizations that profit from the trade are unlikely to disappear if for no other reason than the enormous profits involved in the enterprise. the importation alone requires a federal level organization to interdict because neither a city nor state has the authority to act so. the sub culture is so ingrained and has been for so long that imho, the localized changes you have suggested alone will have only a small impact on the problems that communities face concerning organized drug importation,distribution and sales. i like them as a starting point but feel they will not be adequate.
the incarceration of individuals needs to be addressed first. the drug court model needs to be implemented on a national level, both by the states and feds. i have witnessed its success as an alternative solution that works on the community levels that you suggest. the for profit incarceration model needs to be changed. the monies this system generates has undo influence on legislation in all levels of governing. unfortunately rural communities that rely on the institutions will be negatively impacted in very real economic terms. how will we address these concerns? it needs to be an important component to the solutions proposed in order to make sure we are not creating an even more divided nation. would tougher sentencing of the importation and organizational ends help?
it seems even after incarceration, the leaders of the organizations retain control and therefor power of these structures. what do we do? the nations that are exporting the products are extremely poor, exasperating the problem and impacting the forced migration of individuals trying to escape the violence that the drug industry creates there. the drug war would appear to be too big for even a single nation as large and influential as the USA to solve simply on its own at the community level.
i love your suggestions but can't see them impacting the problem significantly on thier own because it is too large for individual communities to address. unfortunately we as a nation seem to be abrogating responsibility in trying to make positive changes in the societies around the globe with our foreign policy. it is a very tangled web to unravel in order to make changes.

 

[ABM]

I also grew up in North Portland through 6th grade. I loved it there and was pissed when my pop moved us to the suburbs. My mom went to North Catholic & Roosevelt, pop went to Jeff, thats where I was and wanted to go.

Nice. Our church was on the corner of Wygant & Vancouver Ave. It appears to still be there...

 

[Hoopguru]

Nice. Our church was on the corner of Wygant & Vancouver Ave. It appears to still be there...

View attachment 31903

I lived on Yale, Kirby & Concord 2 house's off Portland Blvd...went to Ockley Green

 

[ABM]

The Chicago Bears' Allen Robinson had some interesting words:

https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-players-start-kneeling-again-003354538.html

.....Robinson raised the question that, perhaps unsurprisingly enough, was echoed by the other Bears players who talked with media on Wednesday afternoon. It's undeniably true that embracing peaceful protests is still something that NFL subculture struggles mightily with, but what comes next isn't as clear. Do more players take a knee this fall? How will the NFL react? Is taking a knee still the most practical form of protest? These are but a few of the tough issues lying squarely on the player's shoulders.

"I haven't thought about it, I really haven't considered it," Hicks said. "Do I see it being a possibility? It could be, it could be. I guess in my mind, I want another step. I want to see something bigger, different. That already turned out negatively, and we understood what he meant by it. I will say this: let's make the situation better. I'll choose change over having to take another knee. I'd rather we just move on."...

Allen Robinson is saying essentially much of the same things I've been (ongoing) relating in this thread. He's a Black NFL player. Apparently, I'm an intolerable, privileged White boy. Therein lies the difference.....I guess.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I lived on Yale, Kirby & Concord 2 house's off Portland Blvd...went to Ockley Green

I grew up on Portland Blvd down between Alberta and Woodlawn parks.