Notice From My Cold Dead Hands......

[Phatguysrule]

Extensive background checks help us identify who the dangerous people are.

It's too convoluted, expensive, slow, and unreliable. And it makes the opposite side afraid of a database of gun owners. So they will never support it.

Just mark the ID of every dangerous person or make a searchable website with restricted people's ID numbers. I'm good with either way, and they are about 100X more likely to gain support of republicans.

 

[Shaboid]

Why is it bonkers? 3d printed guns are an extreme minority of guns. 99.999% of guns are never used to kill anybody. Again, kids are 20x more likely to be killed by their own parents than by a gun in school. That's how unlikely it is to happen.

There is no black market for 3D printed guns because there are plenty of other guns. But prohibition creates black markets. That's why I'm opposed to prohibition.

You mentioned red herrings in regards to AR's earlier, but I feel like 3d printed guns are a major red herring on your end. Obviously they need to be regulated somehow, but how many shootings actually happen where one is involved?

 

[Phatguysrule]

So you are against Oregon's law preventing the purchase of handguns to people under 21yrs of age?

No. 21 seems reasonable to me. In fact, making the adult age of 18 doesn't make sense to me. The prefrontal cortex doesn't attach until around 25, so kids under that age have trouble thinking about long term consequences of their actions.

And if we are going to restrict guns, we should probably be targeting hand guns, as they are used to in the vast majority of gun deaths.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You mentioned red herrings in regards to AR's earlier, but I feel like 3d printed guns are a major red herring on your end. Obviously they need to be regulated somehow, but how many shootings actually happen where one is involved?

3d printed and homemade guns only become a problem if we were somehow able to drastically limit the number of mass manufactured guns in the US. Which I don't think is possible.

Some people seem to think it's possible to restrict the number of guns enough to make a significant difference, so that is where the homemade black market argument comes in.

 

[Shaboid]

No. 21 seems reasonable to me. In fact, making the adult age of 18 doesn't make sense to me. The prefrontal cortex doesn't attach until around 25, so kids under that age have trouble thinking about long term consequences of their actions.

And if we are going to restrict guns, we should probably be targeting hand guns, as they are used to in the vast majority of gun deaths.

We are on the same page on this. If you are under 25 and want to shoot guns, join the army. If they don't want you, you don't need a gun. If you want to hunt, move to Alaska.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

 

[Phatguysrule]

We are on the same page on this. If you are under 25 and want to shoot guns, join the army. If they don't want you, you don't need a gun. If you want to hunt, move to Alaska.

I am all for hunting, especially among trained people with no violent tendencies. I am even fine with kids hunting with responsible people. This is a great opportunity to learn and practice how to handle firearms responsibly.

And in my opinion, we will always have firearms in this country, so the more responsibly trained individuals we have the better.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

No. 21 seems reasonable to me. In fact, making the adult age of 18 doesn't make sense to me. The prefrontal cortex doesn't attach until around 25, so kids under that age have trouble thinking about long term consequences of their actions.

And if we are going to restrict guns, we should probably be targeting hand guns, as they are used to in the vast majority of gun deaths.

But are there statistics that show it's making a difference in Oregon having the hang gun ownership at 21yrs old?

And yes, I'm fucking with you a little. Just trying to point out that your argument about only using statistics to dictate law and action isn't necessarily the correct tact. Sure, statistics have a role in the discussion but should not be the only deciding factor for action.

 

[illmatic99]

Hypocrites.

 

[Phatguysrule]

And they could give less a shit about rights. It's about making money. Greedy fuckers. And, they are making off the backs of of our dead children.

Agreed. The NRA used to be great on responsible gun ownership, training and education, but they have been a horrible organization for the last 20 years at least.

 

[Road Ratt]

School shootings have dramatically spiked this decade, data shows

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...icefeed&cvid=5e2e9f5cf40e44d4a0e0b6e91414a098

Through the 1970s, there were an average 17 school shootings per year. The 1980s saw a small increase to 22 per year. There were 29 per year through the 1990s, and 36 per year through the 2000s. During the 2010s, the average number of school shootings per year had risen to 52. Through the first years of the 2020s, there have been an average of 168 per year.

School shootings are now averaging 168 per year. That is 3x what the 2010's was averaging!

If our government can't act at all, none of them deserve to have their job.

 

[Shaboid]

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Hypocrites.

They’ll continue to do nothing until some nutjob shoots up a GOP gathering.

 

[illmatic99]

I am all for hunting, especially among trained people with no violent tendencies. I am even fine with kids hunting with responsible people. This is a great opportunity to learn and practice how to handle firearms responsibly.

And in my opinion, we will always have firearms in this country, so the more responsibly trained individuals we have the better.

why the hell does a kid need to practice handling firearms at all.

 

[Road Ratt]

'Ted Cruz, F-ck You!': Anger Erupts at Gun-Loving GOP After Mass Slaughter in Texas

Democratic lawmakers and the father of a 14-year-old killed in a previous school shooting were among those who unleashed on Republicans.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2...pts-gun-loving-gop-after-mass-slaughter-texas

 

[Phatguysrule]

But are there statistics that show it's making a difference in Oregon having the hang gun ownership at 21yrs old?

And yes, I'm fucking with you a little. Just trying to point out that your argument about only using statistics to dictate law and action isn't necessarily the correct tact. Sure, statistics have a role in the discussion but should not be the only deciding factor for action.

I get your point, but the emotional energy (not to mention political) of this topic has swung the conversation so far from where it can actually do any good that I don't know how else to point it out.

 

[Phatguysrule]

why the hell does a kid need to practice handling firearms at all.

Why do kids need to practice anything? To be capable and responsible as adults.

 

[calvin natt]

All good questions. Again, kids are 20x more likely to be killed by their parents than by a gun at school.

What are we doing? When are we going to get serious about mental illness and access to healthcare in this country? Access to education? Improving our social safety net?

Because those are the most effective ways to prevent most of these horrible acts the soonest.

Or are we just going to cheapen their memories by using them as an excuse to play politics? To argue Republican vs Democrat? Your team vs their team. Same old, same old...

I’m not understanding why you think that all these shooters don’t have
- healthcare
- education
Making sure everyone has access to healthcare and education is terrific. And you can give that to this kid, Adam Lanza, Dylan Roof, Columbine shooters….they went to school. They had parents with healthcare. They had homes. Are we having homeless, uneducated, uninsured shooting up schools that I don’t know about?

 

[Road Ratt]

'You'll Learn Why': GOP Lawmaker Threatens Biden If Democrats Try to Take Away Guns

"Just another day in Florida with Randy Fine threatening the President of the United States after children and adults were shot and murdered at a school in Texas."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2...reatens-biden-if-democrats-try-take-away-guns

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I get your point, but the emotional energy (not to mention political) of this topic has swung the conversation so far from where it can actually do any good that I don't know how else to point it out.

Again, I don't see how you can or should remove emotion from this topic less than 24hrs after a classroom of kids was shot up.

Maybe we should all see the crime photos of that classroom. Maybe more emotion is what is called for because we keep doing nothing and that is not working.

 

[illmatic99]

Listening to this asshole Abbott talk is making my blood boil. He wants to go as far as say he wants to make it tougher for shooters to enter schools by creating only one entrance/exit, while citing that's the only reasonable preventative measure.

So much delusion these days.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Watched as much of Texas Moron Abbott's press conference as I could stomach. What a steaming pile of shit. Thoughts and prayers, keep the politics out of it. His take is basically that it is a continuing tragedy that just doesn't seem to have an answer, so pray as hard as you can. What a whitewash (Pun intended). God bless Beto O'Rourke for having the courage to call Governor Asshole out in front of a national audience. Then Governor POS had him physically removed, while the big, fat white, crew cut Joe Bubba "law enforcement" officials surrounding Coward Abbott screamed profanities at him. What a fucked up state. Beto O'Rourke is one of the few (if not only) government official who has actually had the courage to say, "we're coming for your guns." I don't have many heroes, but Beto is rocketing up the list......

 

[Phatguysrule]

I’m not understanding why you think that all these shooters don’t have
- healthcare
- education
Making sure everyone has access to healthcare and education is terrific. And you can give that to this kid, Adam Lanza, Dylan Roof, Columbine shooters….they went to school. They had parents with healthcare. They had homes. Are we having homeless, uneducated, uninsured shooting up schools that I don’t know about?

Our healthcare and education system is not set up to treat people before they have problems. It is set up to push people into expensive situations that make corporations money. We are especially bad about healthcare and mental health.

Seriously, do you really think we are on the same level for education, healthcare, and mental health as other first world countries? My argument is that we are not, and that is why we have such high violent crime and murder rates compared to other first world countries.

Compared to most other high-income countries, the U.S. has a smaller total supply of mental health workers
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/pu...ns-substance-use-comparing-us-other-countries

Over half of adults with a mental illness do not receive treatment, totaling over 27 million adults in the U.S. who are going untreated.
https://www.mhanational.org/issues/state-mental-health-america

2022Key Findings

• In 2019, just prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, 19.86% of adults experienced a mental illness, equivalent to nearly 50 million Americans.
• Suicidal ideation continues to increase among adults in the U.S. 4.58% of adults report having serious thoughts of suicide, an increase of 664,000 people from last year’s dataset. The national rate of suicidal ideation among adults has increased every year since 2011-2012. This was a larger increase than seen in last year’s report and is a concerning trend to see going into the COVID-19 pandemic.
• A growing percentage of youth in the U.S. live with major depression. 15.08% of youth experienced a major depressive episode in the past year, a 1.24% increase from last year’s dataset. In the bottom-ranked states, up to 19% of youth ages 12-17 experienced major depression.
• Over 2.5 million youth in the U.S. have severe depression, and multiracial youth are at greatest risk. 10.6% of youth in the U.S. have severe major depression (depression that severely affects functioning). The rate of severe depression was highest among youth who identified as more than one race, at 14.5% (more than one in every seven multiracial youth).
• Over half of adults with a mental illness do not receive treatment, totaling over 27 million adults in the U.S. who are going untreated. In Hawaii, the bottom-ranked state, 67% of adults with a mental illness did not receive treatment. Even in Vermont, the top-ranked state in the U.S., 43% of adults experiencing a mental illness were not receiving treatment.
• The percentage of adults with a mental illness who report unmet need for treatment has increased every year since 2011. In 2019, 24.7% of adults with a mental illness report an unmet need for treatment.
• Over 60% of youth with major depression do not receive any mental health treatment. Even in states with the greatest access, nearly one in three are going without treatment. In Texas, the bottom-ranked state for this indicator, nearly three-quarters of youth with depression did not receive mental health treatment.
• Nationally, fewer than 1 in 3 youth with severe depression receive consistent mental health care. Even among youth with severe depression who receive some treatment, only 27% received consistent care. In Tennessee, the bottom-ranked state, that rate is as low as 12%. 65.6% of youth in Maine (ranked 1st) received consistent treatment, which is 16% higher than Vermont (49.7%) which is ranked 2nd.
• Both adults and youth in the U.S. continue to lack adequate insurance coverage. 11.1% of Americans with a mental illness are uninsured. There was a 0.3% increase from last year’s dataset, the second year in a row that this indicator increased since the passage of the Affordable Care Act (ACA). 8.1% of children had private insurance that did not cover mental health services, totaling 950,000 youth.
• Rates of substance use are increasing for youth and adults, even prior to the COVID-19 pandemic. 7.74% of U.S. adults and 4.08% of youth had a substance use disorder in the past year. Substance use increased 0.07% for adults and 0.25% for youth over last year’s report.

This year’s report includes spotlights on two of MHA’s policy priorities in 2021-2022 – the implementation of 988 as the national three-digit suicide prevention and mental health crisis hotline and increasing mental health education and supports in schools, particularly for BIPOC youth.

• Suicidal Ideation and 988 Implementation: With the passage of the new 988 number for suicide prevention and mental health crises, there is an opportunity to create a continuum of crisis care with adequate funding that ensures mental health responses to mental health crises and prioritizes equity, particularly for BIPOC individuals. However, Of the 13 states (ranked 39-51) with the highest rates of suicidal ideation among adults, only four have successfully passed state legislation for 988 implementation: Utah, Oregon, Indiana, and Colorado. Of these, only one currently includes user fees.
• Disparities in Mental Health Treatment for Youth of Color: White youth with depression were most likely to receive mental health treatment, and Asian youth were least likely to receive mental health care. Youth of color with depression, particularly Native American or American Indian, multiracial, and Black youth, were most likely to receive non-specialty mental health services in education settings. To create healthier communities, and to better serve students of color who may only receive mental health services in educational settings, schools need long-term financial support to build up sustained and sufficient school infrastructure.

 

[Shaboid]

Again, I don't see how you can or should remove emotion from this topic less than 24hrs after a classroom of kids was shot up.

Maybe we should all see the crime photos of that classroom. Maybe more emotion is what is called for because we keep doing nothing and that is not working.

I don't WANT to see those photos, but if it meant never having something like this happen again, I'd do it.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Again, I don't see how you can or should remove emotion from this topic less than 24hrs after a classroom of kids was shot up.

Maybe we should all see the crime photos of that classroom. Maybe more emotion is what is called for because we keep doing nothing and that is not working.

But I'm advocating for doing something. I'm suggesting compromise.

Getting mad and arguing for the same stuff that has never worked doesn't seem to work either. Many states have increased gun control, yet rates are still rising. We had an assault weapons ban for a decade and it didn't make much, if any impact.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I don't WANT to see those photos, but if it meant never having something like this happen again, I'd do it.

I agree.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Our healthcare and education system is not set up to treat people before they have problems. It is set up to push people into expensive situations that make corporations money. We are especially bad about healthcare and mental health.

Seriously, do you really think we are on the same level for education, healthcare, and mental health as other first world countries? My argument is that we are not, and that is why we have such high violent crime and murder rates compared to other first world countries.

Compared to most other high-income countries, the U.S. has a smaller total supply of mental health workers
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/pu...ns-substance-use-comparing-us-other-countries

Over half of adults with a mental illness do not receive treatment, totaling over 27 million adults in the U.S. who are going untreated.
https://www.mhanational.org/issues/state-mental-health-america

You make a lot of good points, but they still negate the fact that we, as a country are awash in firearms. More than any other first world country. So that would tend to skew the hell out of those points if you're using other first world countries as examples of succeeding where we fail.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You make a lot of good points, but they still negate the fact that we, as a country are awash in firearms. More than any other first world country. So that would tend to skew the hell out of those points if you're using other first world countries as examples of succeeding where we fail.

And what do you think the odds are that we'll get firearm ownership to the same level of other first world countries in the next 20 years? 50 years?

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

And what do you think the odds are that we'll get firearm ownership to the same level of other first world countries in the next 20 years? 50years?

If we could ever elect politicians with actual courage, we would "revamp" (if not actually remove it from the Constitution) the Second Amendment. Confiscate ALL firearms. Or actually hew to the actual wording of the Second Amendment and allow citizens to only possess firearms if they are members of a "well regulated militia". There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Second Amendment WHATSOEVER that allows any kind of unfettered gun rights. Argue till you're blue in the face. You would still be wrong. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Current Republican ideologies and actions prove my point. My desperation is simply different than theirs......end of discussion from my side.

 

[calvin natt]

Our healthcare and education system is not set up to treat people before they have problems. It is set up to push people into expensive situations that make corporations money. We are especially bad about healthcare and mental health.

Seriously, do you really think we are on the same level for education, healthcare, and mental health as other first world countries? My argument is that we are not, and that is why we have such high violent crime and murder rates compared to other first world countries.

Compared to most other high-income countries, the U.S. has a smaller total supply of mental health workers
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/pu...ns-substance-use-comparing-us-other-countries

Over half of adults with a mental illness do not receive treatment, totaling over 27 million adults in the U.S. who are going untreated.
https://www.mhanational.org/issues/state-mental-health-america

But again. These shooters, from what I can tell, HAVE access to education and healthcare. You are arguing a different topic. Our system isn’t good enough. But the ones who are lighting up schools don’t fall into the “they don’t have access to help” bucket. They are quite often 1) students getting educated 2) from families with access to healthcare. It doesn’t matter.