Notice From My Cold Dead Hands...... (2 Viewers)

[illmatic99]

I have guns for hunting, sports, and self defense.

And that's not going to change. So engaging in the rest of your questions is unproductive. Guns are here and they are going to be here.

Gun rights are expanding in far too many states to get any increases in gun control in our lifetimes. The Supreme Court is also getting ready to restrict states rights to enforce gun control.

I'm interested in actually solving the problem. Railing against guns simply can't solve the actual problems.

lol @ self defense.

good for you.

don't gaslight me with your "interest in actually solving the problem." that's horseshit and you know it.

 

[Chris Craig]

Why does my opinion on this matter?

Because you are so adamantly arguing against everyone on here saying we need to do something and trying to offer solutions. You post again and again that doing something about it is useless.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The problem is that 18 school children were killed. If you think me wanting a solution to avoid that is an emotional response than we are truly at an impasse.

And those same 18 school children could have been killed with any number of weapons. Including the hand gun the shooter was reportedly found with. In fact, if the shooter was only using a handgun the death count may have been higher than with an AR, as hand guns are far more lethal in close in settings. We just don't know enough about what happened yet to know.

 

[Phatguysrule]

lol @ self defense.

good for you.

don't gaslight me with you "interest in actually solving the problem." that's horseshit and you know it.

Nope, it's not. I've had this discussion many times, and you guys keep trying to turn it into a personal vendetta. My stance on this has been very steady. I'm not a gun nut and have been very critical of the NRA.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Why does my opinion on this matter?

Because you have previously shared your opinions on gun control.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Because you are so adamantly arguing against everyone on here saying we need to do something and trying to offer solutions. You post again and again that doing something about it is useless.

No, I keep saying what people are suggesting (like background checks, bans, etc) are useless, and I'm backing that up with links and data. As I have done for years. But nobody can show me any evidence of gun control (like background checks, bans, etc) actually making a significant impact on violent crime, murder rates, or mass shootings. In fact, the numbers I'm able to find dispute that.

 

[Shaboid]

And those same 18 school children could have been killed with any number of weapons. Including the hand gun the shooter was reportedly found with. In fact, if the shooter was only using a handgun the death count may have been higher than with an AR, as hand guns are far more lethal in close in settings. We just don't know enough about what happened yet to know.

And the price of tea in China is what?? I'm all for the mental health solutions you suggest. I just don't think that's enough.

 

[Chris Craig]

And those same 18 school children could have been killed with any number of weapons. Including the hand gun the shooter was reportedly found with. In fact, if the shooter was only using a handgun the death count may have been higher than with an AR, as hand guns are far more lethal in close in settings. We just don't know enough about what happened yet to know.

Guns. Kids in school are killed with guns. Not fucking baseball bats or tire irons or hammers. Fucking guns.

This comparing weapons is bullshit. We are talking about guns. We are talking about school shootings. About our children.

We are not talking about domestic murders where husband/wife's kill their spouses with a fucking blunt object. We aren't talking about adults killing adults in whatever series of other murders or violence that happen.

We are talking about school shootings. Kids buying guns or stealing their parents guns, or getting gifted guns by their parents and using them in mass shootings at schools. We are talking about children dying in schools.

 

[Phatguysrule]

And the price of tea in China is what?? I'm all for the mental health solutions you suggest. I just don't think that's enough.

The kid actually had a hand gun on him. From the very first reports. We know he bought some AR15s. We don't know what he used to kill the most. I would say that's more relevant than the price of tea in china.

Ban the AR, I don't care. I don't own one or care about one. But it's a red herring. Did you watch the video I posted of the difference between an AR round and the most popular hunting rifle round? Ban the AR and you'll start to get that difference in mass shootings.

Tools don't make people murderers. Murderers use the tools available to commit murder.

 

[illmatic99]

Nope, it's not. I've had this discussion many times, and you guys keep trying to turn it into a personal vendetta. My stance on this has been very steady. I'm not a gun nut and have been very critical of the NRA.

"i'm not a gun nut. I only bring up every one of their talking points and vehemently argue in their favor every chance I get."

 

[Shaboid]

The kid actually had a hand gun on him. From the very first reports. We know he bought some AR15s. We don't know what he used to kill the most. I would say that's more relevant than the price of tea in china.

Ban the AR, I don't care. I don't own one or care about one. But it's a red herring. Did you watch the video I posted of the difference between an AR round and the most popular hunting rifle round? Ban the AR and you'll start to get that difference in mass shootings.

Tools don't make people murderers. Murderers use the tools available to commit murder.

Why don't you have an AR???

 

[Phatguysrule]

Guns. Kids in school are killed with guns. Not fucking baseball bats or tire irons or hammers. Fucking guns.

This comparing weapons is bullshit. We are talking about guns. We are talking about school shootings. About our children.

We are talking about domestic murders where husband/wife's kill their spouses with a fucking blunt object. We aren't talking about adults killing adults in whatever series of other murders or violence that happen.

We are talking about school shootings. Kids buying guns or stealing their parents guns, or getting gifted guns by their parents and using them in mass shootings at schools. We are talking about children dying in schools.

Ok, and you say you are opposed to getting rid of guns. So there are over 400 million guns in the US. That number is rising by 10s of millions every year. How do you propose to stop those already illegal acts of kids obtaining and taking guns into public? Surveillance in every house?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Why don't you have an AR???

Because they are underpowered for hunting (unless you're custom building them in large calibers for hunting hogs, which I don't do.) And 22cal rounds are usually cheaper and take up less space.

I don't care about the "cool" factor which is about the only real benefit to an AR.

 

[Phatguysrule]

"i'm not a gun nut. I only bring up every one of their talking points and vehemently argue in their favor every chance I get."

We have a thread for this discussion, and violent crime and murder rates are something I'd like to see addressed. From all of the research I've seen, the push for gun control gets in the way of making meaningful change.

 

[Chris Craig]

Ok, and you say you are opposed to getting rid of guns. So there are over 400 million guns in the US. That number is rising by 10s of millions every year. How do you propose to stop those already illegal acts of kids obtaining and taking guns into public? Surveillance in every house?

What I said is I'm not for taking everyone's guns away and I don't think most are. That's just fearmongering. But, we can make it harder for criminals and the mentally ill to buy it own them.

We can hold parents responsible, like the parents in Michigan. If your kid gets access to your guns or you buy them guns and they do this shit, you need to be held responsible.

A big problem here is parents are paying fucking attention. They need to pay attention. Make them.

If parents know they will be held accountable then they will be accountable, they will take more responsibility with their children, they will lock their guns up like fort Knox. Less of these shootings will happen.

You make it illegal for politicians to take money from gun lobbies.

 

[Shaboid]

The kid actually had a hand gun on him. From the very first reports. We know he bought some AR15s. We don't know what he used to kill the most. I would say that's more relevant than the price of tea in china.

Ban the AR, I don't care. I don't own one or care about one. But it's a red herring. Did you watch the video I posted of the difference between an AR round and the most popular hunting rifle round? Ban the AR and you'll start to get that difference in mass shootings.

Tools don't make people murderers. Murderers use the tools available to commit murder.

I did not watch that video, but I'm familiar with the ammunition. That is just as much of a red herring.

I'm 34 and want children, but I'm honestly struggling with making that leap while stuff like this is happening. I want a solution, and I understand I may never get that. That's why this is so frustrating. Besides pointing to GINI coefficient, you haven't offered any substantial solution or recommendation. "Nothing can be done" is how you come across.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Guns. Kids in school are killed with guns. Not fucking baseball bats or tire irons or hammers. Fucking guns.

This comparing weapons is bullshit. We are talking about guns. We are talking about school shootings. About our children.

We are talking about domestic murders where husband/wife's kill their spouses with a fucking blunt object. We aren't talking about adults killing adults in whatever series of other murders or violence that happen.

We are talking about school shootings. Kids buying guns or stealing their parents guns, or getting gifted guns by their parents and using them in mass shootings at schools. We are talking about children dying in schools.

Then don't let unidentified people in schools during school hours. Have an armed and trained staff member at the entrance. Problem pretty much solved.

 

[Shaboid]

Because they are underpowered for hunting (unless you're custom building them in large calibers for hunting hogs, which I don't do.) And 22cal rounds are usually cheaper and take up less space.

I don't care about the "cool" factor which is about the only real benefit to an AR.

The "cool" factor needs to go!!! How do we solve that?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

We have a thread for this discussion, and violent crime and murder rates are something I'd like to see addressed. From all of the research I've seen, the push for gun control gets in the way of making meaningful change.

Again, Oregon has more gun control laws than many other states. Which ones, in your opinion, are not needed.

You keep saying that gun laws aren't making a measurable difference in gun deaths. But is that really a valid argument? Currently, in Oregon we have a Red Flag law, part of it is if you were to beat the shit out of your wife and were criminally charged for it the police can request that all of your guns are removed from you and your home until the disposition of your charges. Do we really need statistics to show that this is a good idea? And yes, there are cases here in Oregon where people have still gotten a gun and killed their spouse but isn't doing something better than doing nothing at all?

 

[Phatguysrule]

I did not watch that video, but I'm familiar with the ammunition. That is just as much of a red herring.

I'm 34 and want children, but I'm honestly struggling with making that leap while stuff like this is happening. I want a solution, and I understand I may never get that. That's why this is so frustrating. Besides pointing to GINI coefficient, you haven't offered any substantial solution or recommendation. "Nothing can be done" is how you come across.

I have offered alternatives to the proposed gun control that I think we could pass in a year or two without too much effort. Limit anybody under 18 and without a clean ID from buying firearms. Then allow police and even doctors to confiscate the ID of dangerous people (or even invalidate the ID with a hole punch). When they get their replacement ID it can have a weapons restriction.
Make it a felony to provide weapons to people with the weapons restriction. This can include firearms, swords, whatever we decide is reasonable. If you are guilty of a felony get your very own weapons restricted ID.

I don't think republicans will fight this much because we're only putting restrictions on criminals. We may have to tweak it here or there to get it through, but it's a far simpler solution than universal background checks and has the same effect.

I don't believe we will ever limit the number of guns in this country, and I don't think our political climate will get us closer to universal background checks. I think the evidence for that is pretty clear.

 

[Chris Craig]

I have offered alternatives to the proposed gun control that I think we could pass in a year or two without too much effort. Limit anybody under 18 and without a clean ID from buying firearms. Then allow police and even doctors to confiscate the ID of dangerous people (or even invalidate the ID with a hole punch). When they get their replacement ID it can have a weapons restriction.
Make it a felony to provide weapons to people with the weapons restriction. This can include firearms, swords, whatever we decide is reasonable. If you are guilty of a felony get your very own weapons restricted ID.

I don't think republicans will fight this much because we're only putting restrictions on criminals. We may have to tweak it here or there to get it through, but it's a far simpler solution than universal background checks and has the same effect.

I don't believe we will ever limit the number of guns in this country, and I don't think our political climate will get us closer to universal background checks. I think the evidence for that is pretty clear.

We can't pass shit because the Republicans are in the pockets of the NRA.

 

[Chris Craig]

We really need term limits in the Congress and Senate so these politicians can stop focusing on re-election and focus on getting shit done... actually helping the people that fucking put them there.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Again, Oregon has more gun control laws than many other states. Which ones, in your opinion, are not needed.

You keep saying that gun laws aren't making a measurable difference in gun deaths. But is that really a valid argument? Currently, in Oregon we have a Red Flag law, part of it is if you were to beat the shit out of your wife and were criminally charged for it the police can request that all of your guns are removed from you and your home until the disposition of your charges. Do we really need statistics to show that this is a good idea? And yes, there are cases here in Oregon where people have still gotten a gun and killed their spouse but isn't doing something better than doing nothing at all?

I supported the red flag law. I think close family and doctors should be able to have your guns removed if they believe you are a danger to yourself and others.

However, I think we should have a quick and inexpensive way for people to challenge these rulings and get their guns back in cases of disputes etc. I think we should make more efforts to prevent this from being used as a weapon (for example, because your made your cousin mad or whatever).

I think our current background check system is stupid, inefficient, and expensive. It should be a mark on dangerous peoples ID or there should be an easily searchable free database of dangerous people.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I have offered alternatives to the proposed gun control that I think we could pass in a year or two without too much effort. Limit anybody under 18 and without a clean ID from buying firearms. Then allow police and even doctors to confiscate the ID of dangerous people (or even invalidate the ID with a hole punch). When they get their replacement ID it can have a weapons restriction.
Make it a felony to provide weapons to people with the weapons restriction. This can include firearms, swords, whatever we decide is reasonable. If you are guilty of a felony get your very own weapons restricted ID.

I don't think republicans will fight this much because we're only putting restrictions on criminals. We may have to tweak it here or there to get it through, but it's a far simpler solution than universal background checks and has the same effect.

I don't believe we will ever limit the number of guns in this country, and I don't think our political climate will get us closer to universal background checks. I think the evidence for that is pretty clear.

So you are against Oregon's law preventing the purchase of handguns to people under 21yrs of age?

 

[Chris Craig]

I supported the red flag law. I think close family and doctors should be able to have your guns removed if they believe you are a danger to yourself and others.

However, I think we should have a quick and inexpensive way for people to challenge these rulings and get their guns back in cases of disputes etc. I think we should make more efforts to prevent this from being used as a weapon (for example, because your made your cousin mad or whatever).

I think our current background check system is stupid, inefficient, and expensive. It should be a mark on dangerous peoples ID or there should be an easily searchable free database of dangerous people.

Extensive background checks help us identify who the dangerous people are.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I supported the red flag law. I think close family and doctors should be able to have your guns removed if they believe you are a danger to yourself and others.

However, I think we should have a quick and inexpensive way for people to challenge these rulings and get their guns back in cases of disputes etc. I think we should make more efforts to prevent this from being used as a weapon (for example, because your made your cousin mad or whatever).

I think our current background check system is stupid, inefficient, and expensive. It should be a mark on dangerous peoples ID or there should be an easily searchable free database of dangerous people.

Do you have any statistics that show Oregon's Red Flag law is being misused as a weapon?

 

[Phatguysrule]

What I said is I'm not for taking everyone's guns away and I don't think most are. That's just fearmongering. But, we can make it harder for criminals and the mentally ill to buy it own them.

We can hold parents responsible, like the parents in Michigan. If your kid gets access to your guns or you buy them guns and they do this shit, you need to be held responsible.

A big problem here is parents are paying fucking attention. They need to pay attention. Make them.

If parents know they will be held accountable then they will be accountable, they will take more responsibility with their children, they will lock their guns up like fort Knox. Less of these shootings will happen.

You make it illegal for politicians to take money from gun lobbies.

And I support mostly all of that. But do you think this kids grandmother would have been more worried about getting in trouble than getting murdered by him? You don't think he would have just killed her, taken the key and gotten the guns? Killing the parents/family members is very common with these school shootings.

I think this is a much bigger problem that just making parents afraid of repercussions. If my kid did this I wouldn't care about the legal repercussions. I'd care that my kid took lives and ruined/ended their own life.

There is nothing worse than that as a parent, IMO.

We need to help parents identify and treat these troubled kids beforehand. And that's what my suggestions are centered around.

 

[Shaboid]

Let me know when someone 3d prints a gun and kills 18 children in a school, btw. That argument is bonkers.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Do you have any statistics that show Oregon's Red Flag law is being misused as a weapon?

No, it's just a concern that I have and would like to protect against. It's something I wanted before it was instituted because I don't believe government should ever punish innocent people in the name of "safety", and the red flag law happens so quickly it seems like it could be open to abuse.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Let me know when someone 3d prints a gun and kills 18 children in a school, btw. That argument is bonkers.

Why is it bonkers? 3d printed guns are an extreme minority of guns. 99.999% of guns are never used to kill anybody. Again, kids are 20x more likely to be killed by their own parents than by a gun in school. That's how unlikely it is to happen.

There is no black market for 3D printed guns because there are plenty of other guns. But prohibition creates black markets. That's why I'm opposed to prohibition.