Game Thread GAME# 36: BLAZERS @ WIZARDS - JANUARY 3, 2020 - FRIDAY, 4:00 PM , NBCSNW

[kjironman1]

Eye test and advanced on/off metrics lean heavily in Nurks favor.

Honestly surprised some think this a real discussion.

Metrics don't work when you are playing with different players. As far as eye test goes? I just watched 20/20 and i see 23/21/5
If seeing isn't believing then i don't know what to tell you.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

Metrics don't work when you are playing with different players. As far as eye test goes? I just watched 20/20 and i see 23/21/5
If seeing isn't believing then i don't know what to tell you.

Seriously!! I don’t know what game he is watching... time to get an eye exam.

And Hassan does this almost every night! Nurk was wildly inconsistent.

 

[kjironman1]

Nurk fumbling the ball off his fingers constantly, throwing bad passes, and missing chip shot lay ups at the rim.

You forgot not being able to throw one down unless he was completely alone around the rim. It was infuriating watching him seemingly never dunk the ball.

 

[Tince]

How about Player Efficiency Rating?! Hassan is 7th in entire NBA... you talk like he is putting up empty stats. Also, Nurk will not be the same player without Aminu and Harkless playing perimeter defense. He will not be able to cover up Dame and CJs shortcoming like Hassan does. He didn’t have to do as much because of Aminu and Harkless. Also, there is no guarantee he will return to his old self, and if he does it won’t be til season after next most likely.

Did I say anything bad about Whiteside? Nurk probably won't have a PER quite as high as Whiteside either. I also said we won't know if he'll be the same after he returns.

I think Nurk is a better facilitaor than Whiteside, not sure that means Whitesides stats are empty; your words, not mind.

 

[JDC]

I disagree... my eye test remembers Nurk fumbling the ball off his fingers constantly, throwing bad passes, and missing chip shot lay ups at the rim. My eye test sees opposing players scared to take the ball in the lane with Hassan playing, him rarely missing shots, and grabbing every rebound.

Each have their own set of strengths and weaknesses.

All I know is that Nurks strengths have contributed significantly more to winning basketball games than Hassan's.

 

[kjironman1]

Each have their own set of strengths and weaknesses.

All I know is that Nurks strengths have contributed significantly more to winning basketball games than Hassan's.

I can agree with this. But again totally different roster. So?

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

Each have their own set of strengths and weaknesses.

All I know is that Nurks strengths have contributed significantly more to winning basketball games than Hassan's.

Yes, because we had long wing defenders last year in 6’9 Aminu and 6’9” Harkless. This year our only defender is 6’4” Bazemore who is way overrated and undersized. Hassan is literally on his own... Nurk has a lot of help.

 

[JDC]

I can agree with this. But again totally different roster. So?

Hassan has played with a lot of different rosters and his on/off indicators (both raw and adjusted) have been remarkably consistent year over year.

He's a guy that despite the gaudy box score stats has failed to significantly elevate the teams he's played on.

 

[kjironman1]

Yes, because we had long wing defenders last year in 6’9 Aminu and 6’9” Harkless. This year our only defender is 6’4” Bazemore who is way overrated and undersized. Hassan is literally on his own... Nurk has a lot of help.

That is kind of the point here. Can't compare the rosters. Also the offensive "Metrics" kind of hold true also for a team that played together for a couple years. Things start to get easier when you know each other well.

 

[oldfisherman]

Congrats to the Blazers for the win.

Disappointed Beal did not play. I wanted to compare his game to CJ's. I'm sold on a trade built around the two. Sure there are areas each is better than other. But overall, Beal's game would be a better fit with this roster. The tie braker for me is Beal's desire to play in a ball movement system. He averaged about 2.5 more assists the last two seasons. Beal would be much more enjoyable to watch than CJ.

 

[Tince]

I just don't think you can even compare the two. Even more so you are talking about team defense when you have never seen Whiteside play more than a couple healthy games with another good defensive player on this team. Then if you want to talk about "Facilitator"? Nurkic being labeled "A better Passer" doesn't make much sense to me either. Whiteside has passed the ball effectively but he also is not being asked to play at the top of the key the same way? Might be because Nurkic was a little better at hitting the shot from the top of the key? Could also be because he played with a deeper roster that had more available scorers?
The two teams are much different. Not sure Nurkic will have even close to the same effect with this roster. On the other note. Pretty Sure having Whiteside last year would have been a better look.

I tried to not compare stats between the two for the reasons you listed above. I agree Whiteside is not being asked to pass like Nurk, but there might be a reason for it. Under Stotts, Whiteside is averaging a career high 1.3 assists, he's never been above 1.0 for his career. I believe Nurk has been over 3 assists for a couple season in Stotts system.

I personally don't think Whiteside is anywhere close when it comes to overall court-vision and distributing, but I could be wrong.

 

[kjironman1]

Hassan has played with a lot of different rosters and his on/off indicators (both raw and adjusted) have been remarkably consistent year over year.

He's a guy that despite the gaudy box score stats has failed to significantly elevate the teams he's played on.

Wait a second here. He played a total of 19 games in two seasons with the Kings.
Took two years off.
Then played 5 years with the Heat. after lebron. Led his team to the EC second round while getting All defensive team nod.
Seems to me the very argument you are making is proving mine. Over five years you are saying he had "A LOT of different rosters".
The only other team he has played on was the Heat in reality. They made the playoffs twice in those years and that was with Wade and nobody else? Olynyk and Luol Deng.
Sorry this narrative doesn't work for me.
I think he is much better than Nurk.

 

[kjironman1]

Whiteside is averaging a career high 1.3 assists, he's never been above 1.0

Well i am not sure you can Credit or Blame Stotts buit yes he is passing the ball a bit more.

 

[Tince]

Well i am not sure you can Credit or Blame Stotts buit yes he is passing the ball a bit more.

It was somewhat tongue and cheek. My point was that this year is his career high in assists, that's a fact. Lots of factors go into assists some of which the passer doesn't control, so certainly assists can't prove or disprove who's a better passer.

Somewhat off topic. Given that we have Dame, CJ, and Nurk locked up, what is the most you'd be comfortable paying Whiteside this summer?

 

[kjironman1]

It was somewhat tongue and cheek. My point was that this year is his career high in assists, that's a fact. Lots of factors go into assists some of which the passer doesn't control, so certainly assists can't prove or disprove who's a better passer.

Somewhat off topic. Given that we have Dame, CJ, and Nurk locked up, what is the most you'd be comfortable paying Whiteside this summer?

Ain't gonna happen so don't worry about it. Whiteside is as good as gone.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

It was somewhat tongue and cheek. My point was that this year is his career high in assists, that's a fact. Lots of factors go into assists some of which the passer doesn't control, so certainly assists can't prove or disprove who's a better passer.

Somewhat off topic. Given that we have Dame, CJ, and Nurk locked up, what is the most you'd be comfortable paying Whiteside this summer?

Whiteside is not resigning in Portland to be a backup to someone he is arguably better than, and when he can be a starter on almost any other team. Zero chance. If Neil doesn’t trade him we lose him for nothing.

 

[Tince]

Ain't gonna happen so don't worry about it. Whiteside is as good as gone.

I agree, just curious if you were the GM what you'd be willing to pay... what do you think he'll get on the open market?

 

[Tince]

Whiteside is not resigning in Portland to be a backup to someone he is arguably better than, and when he can be a starter on almost any other team. Zero chance. If Neil doesn’t trade him we lose him for nothing.

I agree, he should be traded, unless he truly is some top 10 player, then you trade Nurk.

Given how highly you appear to view Whiteside, you're nearly certain to be dissapointed in who we get in return.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

I agree, he should be traded, unless he truly is some top 10 player, then you trade Nurk.

Given how highly you appear to view Whiteside, you're nearly certain to be dissapointed in who we get in return.

Probably... and I’m not trying to knock Nurk... he is probably my favorite Blazer since Sabonis... but I think Whiteside is a better fit on the current roster, and he is having quite the season. I just don’t think Nurk is clearly better like some in here have stated, and also, I’m not confident in how Nurk will return from a major injury. If he plays scared to get injured again he will not be the same player.

 

[oldfisherman]

I agree, just curious if you were the GM what you'd be willing to pay... what do you think he'll get on the open market?

Doubt Whiteside would take my offer, but here goes.

The same contract as Nurk, about $12 million per. Plus Whiteside and Nurk alternate starting games. Make them equals.

 

[James lamphear]

I disagree... my eye test remembers Nurk fumbling the ball off his fingers constantly, throwing bad passes, and missing chip shot lay ups at the rim.

And for Whiteside, my eye test sees opposing players scared to take the ball in the lane with Hassan playing, him rarely missing shots, and grabbing every rebound.

I see a lot players into into Whiteside and score on him for simple reason majority times doesn't put his hands up. Yes he get 3 to 4 a game but I think majority of the times he has his hands down. I am not saying he not having good a season because he is but you can't compare the two. Nurk does a lot little thing by screen better and they also can run the offense through him something I don't they can do with Whiteside. Yes Nurk got his weak points don't get me wrong. They both have different strength and weakness that why I think both can coexist with each when Nurk comes. Due the biggest weakness off the bench is rebounding.

 

[James lamphear]

Whiteside may not be attractive as some of you think there due to Miami was trying to trade him last year at trade deadline and there was no takers. When Olshey came calling they actually got Leonard for Whiteside so only tell me they was glad to get rid of him.

 

[wizenheimer]

wow, the Whiteside/Nurkic debate is sure heating up. I'm not going to try to make a cogent argument here. I think Nurkic last year was a little better than Whiteside this year, generically, for a variety of reasons, but all the people acting like it's some giant gap in Nurk's favor are loopy. Just some random observations/opinion:

* I think if Nurkic had played 32 games this year and everything else had been the same: roster turnover, injuries, crappy bench, Portland would only have 1 or 2 more wins right now, at best.

* Whiteside doesn't have "hollow stats"...that's just some lazy narrative, IMO. I want somebody to 'prove' it before I credit it any

* between the time that Nurkic was injured and just after Portland won game 7 against Denver, the Blazers were 17-6...without Nurkic, and with Kanter...and Kanter has been accused of hollow stats a lot more often than Whiteside.

 

[JDC]

wow, the Whiteside/Nurkic debate is sure heating up. I'm not going to try to make a cogent argument here. I think Nurkic last year was a little better than Whiteside this year, generically, for a variety of reasons, but all the people acting like it's some giant gap in Nurk's favor are loopy. Just some random observations/opinion:

* I think if Nurkic had played 32 games this year and everything else had been the same: roster turnover, injuries, crappy bench, Portland would only have 1 or 2 more wins right now, at best.

* Whiteside doesn't have "hollow stats"...that's just some lazy narrative, IMO. I want somebody to 'prove' it before I credit it any

* between the time that Nurkic was injured and just after Portland won game 7 against Denver, the Blazers were 17-6...without Nurkic, and with Kanter...and Kanter has been accused of hollow stats a lot more often than Whiteside.

Hollow stats is going too far, but I'd be hard pressed to identify a part of Hassan Whitside's floor game that goes "beyond the box score" to add value to a team.

And that statment is backed up any one of the numerous luck and lineup adjusted plus minus based metrics.

For instance, (5-year RAPM data)

http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm5?id=-756193914

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

wow, the Whiteside/Nurkic debate is sure heating up. I'm not going to try to make a cogent argument here. I think Nurkic last year was a little better than Whiteside this year, generically, for a variety of reasons, but all the people acting like it's some giant gap in Nurk's favor are loopy. Just some random observations/opinion:

* I think if Nurkic had played 32 games this year and everything else had been the same: roster turnover, injuries, crappy bench, Portland would only have 1 or 2 more wins right now, at best.

* Whiteside doesn't have "hollow stats"...that's just some lazy narrative, IMO. I want somebody to 'prove' it before I credit it any

* between the time that Nurkic was injured and just after Portland won game 7 against Denver, the Blazers were 17-6...without Nurkic, and with Kanter...and Kanter has been accused of hollow stats a lot more often than Whiteside.

Miami was never very good with Whiteside, Portland was good with Nurkic. Miami’s very good this year without Whiteside, Portland just flat out is one of the worst teams in the NBA with Whiteside.
Are whitesides stats hollow, no maybe not, but is his presence vital for winning? Doesnt seem to be.
A lot of portlands troubles arent Whiteside it’s that they have had very little depth for bigs besides him, which isnt his fault.

The more this season plays out the more I think the Blazers roster is just not good, they dont have any depth, they dont fit together well either. Dame and WS’s PNR game is light years behind where Dame and Nurks was oh and Kanter was better there than WS is too.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Hollow stats is going too far, but I'd be hard pressed to identify a part of Hassan Whitside's floor game that goes "beyond the box score" to add value to a team.

And that statment is backed up any one of the numerous luck and lineup adjusted plus minus based metrics.

For instance, (5-year RAPM data)

http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm5?id=-756193914

That link is almost impossible to read on my phone.

 

[wizenheimer]

I see a lot players into into Whiteside and score on him for simple reason majority times doesn't put his hands up. Yes he get 3 to 4 a game but I think majority of the times he has his hands down..

* this season, opponents are taking 29.9% of their shots at the rim and shooting .605 when they do. That ranks as 3rd best in the NBA

* last season, opponents took the same 29.9% of their shots at the rim and shot .633 when they did, 6th best in the league
----------------------------------------------------
* this season, opponents are taking 16.5% of their shots in the 3-10'zone, and are shooting .393 which ranks 15th

* last season, opponents took 15% of their shots in the 3-10' zone, and shot .411, which ranked 24th
-----------------------------------------------------

In other words, in the two shooting zones where the defense of Whiteside/Nurkic would have the biggest impact, the results are: Whiteside, aided by Skal and Tolliver are doing quite a bit better than Nurkic, aided by Zach, Meyers, Kanter, and Aminu.

I know the narrative here is to credit Nurkic and debit Whiteside, but some of the arguments just don't withstand scrutiny

 

[JDC]

That link is almost impossible to read on my phone.

Yeah it's awful on mobile, sorry.

 

[TBpup]

Miami was never very good with Whiteside, Portland was good with Nurkic. Miami’s very good this year without Whiteside, Portland just flat out is one of the worst teams in the NBA with Whiteside.
Are whitesides stats hollow, no maybe not, but is his presence vital for winning? Doesnt seem to be.
A lot of portlands troubles arent Whiteside it’s that they have had very little depth for bigs besides him, which isnt his fault.

The more this season plays out the more I think the Blazers roster is just not good, they dont have any depth, they dont fit together well either. Dame and WS’s PNR game is light years behind where Dame and Nurks was oh and Kanter was better there than WS is too.

@TorturedBlazerFan ...I would agree with all of that with this caveat. If any guard on the Blazers could figure out how to throw Whiteside a freaking proper lob on the PnR, the gap might not be nearly so wide. Whiteside created havoc because of his ability to convert those into easy dunks. The number the Blazers have thrown him I believe can be counted on one hand....without using all of the fingers.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

@TorturedBlazerFan ...I would agree with all of that with this caveat. If any guard on the Blazers could figure out how to throw Whiteside a freaking proper lob on the PnR, the gap might not be nearly so wide. Whiteside created havoc because of his ability to convert those into easy dunks. The number the Blazers have thrown him I believe can be counted on one hand....without using all of the fingers.

I think part of that is they set their screens so far away from the basket and he’s pretty slow so its not a very good set up for him lift off and for them to throw up a lob, most plays going to a lob start around the ft line not 25 feet away from the basket. Id agree that the guards arent good at making the lob pass too, but I think the opportunity looks like its there more than it actually is because they dont really start in the right position for it.