How's everyone feel about Smokin' Joe Cronin now?

[maxiep]

If the W's offered the speculated deal and it was deemed the best return by management, I'd hope they keep Paul. Let him mentor Scoot for a year and then come off the books. If Cronin clears the space over the next few years and Scoot and Shaedon ball out as hoped, I am sure FAs will want to come. Dudes with options mostly want to get paid and win and Portland could be a prime destination for both.

STOMP

Word is there are some ill feelings between Ayton and Paul. That would be my only concern.

 

[Propagandist]

For someone with your moniker, you surely fell hard to this propaganda piece. And that is exactly what Haynes' article is.

Good one. So Dame’s a big liar and Haynes is colluding to repair his image that he destroyed when he showed his true colors? After years and years and years of being one way, he just became this other guy?

Or it’s what happened. Sue fits EVERYTHING we know about Damian Lillard.

There’s this strange thing people do when things get like this where they make things polar. I don’t think this is a polar thing. It seems packed with nuances. Joe can have gotten good assets and fucked Miami and everything cool and still be a snake. It doesn’t have to be so black and white.

 

[PCmor7]

This. A public statement from Dame that he'd be more than happy to come back to Portland would have given Cronin maximum leverage.

Dame refused to do that.

It's even more fundamental than that, IMO. Pro-Dame media, podcasters and YouTubers assassinated Cronin's character for two months before Haynes said Dame told the team he was willing to come back to Portland. They never gave specifics, they just said Cronin was doing Dame dirty, which, without any examples, is sketchy as heck.

Dame's approach didn't even have to give the Blazers maximum leverage, but it instead was very clearly an attempt to take away as much leverage from the team as it could, to the point that even the league stepped in.

And, here we are again, Dame's personal reporters after the fact putting out this new narrative three months later that's just another spin on what we've been reading for last three months. It just looks like another attempt to repair Dame's damaged rep, but I don't know how it does that by saying the people Dame employed did all the damage when Dame sat back and did nothing.

The timeline doesn't absolve Dame. Haynes used up all his credibility through the last three months and there's absolutely no reason I should believe him now. TBH, to throw this grenade on the way out the door to me is actually a confirmation that the Dame we saw over the last three months is the real one.

 

[maxiep]

Yeah I was thinking about that last night. In one hand he’s holding out an olive branch to the fans while simultaneously salting the earth on his way out of town.

To be fair to Dame, I bet he really hates the Blazers' FO, yet still really loves the fans. That duality must be tough.

 

[Natebishop3]

Good one. So Dame’s a big liar and Haynes is colluding to repair his image that he destroyed when he showed his true colors? After years and years and years of being one way, he just became this other guy?

Or it’s what happened. Sue fits EVERYTHING we know about Damian Lillard.

There’s this strange thing people do when things get like this where they make things polar. I don’t think this is a polar thing. It seems packed with nuances. Joe can have gotten good assets and fucked Miami and everything cool and still be a snake. It doesn’t have to be so black and white.

I think you need to consider the source.

I also think you should consider that Dame's reputation took a MASSIVE hit this summer. Not just locally, but nationally. He was known as the "loyalty guy" and then he demanded a trade to one team. That was a really bad look for him. So I'm sorry, but I'm not just going to accept a hit piece by one of his friends as gospel. I think both sides have been maneuvering to not be the bad guy, and I think this is Dame throwing one more haymaker before he leaves.

 

[julius]

I think you need to consider the source.

I also think you should consider that Dame's reputation took a MASSIVE hit this summer. Not just locally, but nationally. He was known as the "loyalty guy" and then he demanded a trade to one team. That was a really bad look for him. So I'm sorry, but I'm not just going to accept a hit piece by one of his friends as gospel. I think both sides have been maneuvering to not be the bad guy, and I think this is Dame throwing one more haymaker before he leaves.

If there's one thing Damian knows, it's how to put a message out there. He's not stupid, he knows what he's doing by having Chris release that article.

 

[julius]

It's even more fundamental than that, IMO. Pro-Dame media, podcasters and YouTubers assassinated Cronin's character for two months before Haynes said Dame told the team he was willing to come back to Portland. They never gave specifics, they just said Cronin was doing Dame dirty, which, without any examples, is sketchy as heck.

Dame's approach didn't even have to give the Blazers maximum leverage, but it instead was very clearly an attempt to take away as much leverage from the team as it could, to the point that even the league stepped in.

And, here we are again, Dame's personal reporters after the fact putting out this new narrative three months later that's just another spin on what we've been reading for last three months. It just looks like another attempt to repair Dame's damaged rep, but I don't know how it does that by saying the people Dame employed did all the damage when Dame sat back and did nothing.

The timeline doesn't absolve Dame. Haynes used up all his credibility through the last three months and there's absolutely no reason I should believe him now. TBH, to throw this grenade on the way out the door to me is actually a confirmation that the Dame we saw over the last three months is the real one.

One thing to think about...if Damian hadn't demanded a trade hours into FA, hadn't singled out Miami as his sole destination, hadn't had his people threaten that he'd no show, "raise hell" and still demand to be traded to Miami if traded elsewhere, and instead had quietly listed 3 teams but said "I really would prefer Miami" and promised not to let it slip, I'm willing to bet that he'd be in Miami.

 

[CJ_is_Gone]

One thing to think about...if Damian hadn't demanded a trade hours into FA, hadn't singled out Miami as his sole destination, hadn't had his people threaten that he'd no show, "raise hell" and still demand to be traded to Miami if traded elsewhere, and instead had quietly listed 3 teams but said "I really would prefer Miami" and promised not to let it slip, I'm willing to bet that he'd be in Miami.

100% agree

 

[Pinwheel1]

Hmm if I had to guess this scenario seems more believable than what what Haynes wrote. I just don't believe that after all that happened Dame really wanted to come back to Portland long-term. Don't get me wrong I still am a huge Dame fan, but I think this very calculated article by Haynes/Dame was a poor decision. The goal was obviously to make Joe, and only Joe, look bad. Was it really that important for Dame to do so?

 

[Natebishop3]

Here is my read on the situation (with a lot of speculation)

Dame thinks that the Blazers weren't actually trying to put a contender around him. I don't think that's true... at least not at first. Last summer Joe went out and got Jerami Grant and GP2. Those are not rebuilding moves. Those are moves to make Dame happy. Those were better moves than anything Neil did in the last four years. I wasn't a fan of GP2, but he clearly was a "win now" move. Unfortunately it didn't work and the team still sucked. It made sense to tank and try to acquire another asset. The odds were that we most likely would not have a great pick in this draft, but fortune shined on us and got us the 3rd pick.

Lots of credible sources have said that Joe did attempt to move the pick and build around Dame. Other people claim that Joe didn't really try and most of the offers he made were disingenuous. This is one of those points that will be nearly impossible to prove either way. Dame most likely hurt the value of the pick by saying, for all intents and purposes, that he'd demand a trade if they used the pick. This is the first example of Dame making Joe's job harder. If Joe was actually trying to move the pick, this had to hurt his leverage in negotiations.

I think the path diverges here. If I'm the Blazers, I'm looking at this young superstar replacement for my aging HOF point guard and I'm thinking it's time to move on. Joe isn't an idiot. He knows that he can't build a contender around Dame in a few years time. When he couldn't flip the pick, that was the death sentence for Dame in Portland and I think both sides knew it. This is the point where they should have come together amicably and just worked out a solution where everyone leaves happy. Unfortunately that's not what happened.

What we do know, through reports, is that Dame requested a trade to only one city, and his agent did everything in his power to make it more difficult for the Blazers to trade Dame. The Heat gave a lowball offer. The Blazers didn't want to deal with Miami. Possibly because they didn't think the Heat had anything they wanted. Possibly because they didn't like being bullied into only one destination. Possibly because they felt like Miami had tampered. Either way, the Blazers weren't motivated to get something done with the Heat.

There was a report that the Blazers filed a grievance against Dame and his agent. Haynes reported that the NBA had a meeting with both sides and lawyers were involved. To me, this indicates that there is A LOT more to this story. If Joe was THAT pissed at Dame, there is clearly more to this that we have not heard. Maybe we won't ever hear about it. The Blazers haven't been airing their dirty laundry like Dame has. I just wish people would recognize that there has been transgressions from both sides, everyone is pissed, and I don't think there's an innocent person in this ordeal.

I just want to move on and be excited about the new team.

 

[theprunetang]

Good one. So Dame’s a big liar and Haynes is colluding to repair his image that he destroyed when he showed his true colors? After years and years and years of being one way, he just became this other guy?

Or it’s what happened. Sue fits EVERYTHING we know about Damian Lillard.

There’s this strange thing people do when things get like this where they make things polar. I don’t think this is a polar thing. It seems packed with nuances. Joe can have gotten good assets and fucked Miami and everything cool and still be a snake. It doesn’t have to be so black and white.

Then why are you making it black and white? Go back and read your last 10 or so posts in this thread. You read this piece, that only offers one side of the story and immediately sided with Dame and began trashing Cronin.

Who is the one making this black and white?

 

[RonBrewer]

At this point, I think we can quit bashing Dame.

he fucked up. Played his hand and got called out on it.

his legacy and what he stood for is now tarnished. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

joe out the league on Notice. We aren’t going to get Fucked or held hostage. Honor your contract or we trade you where we want.

I love Dame, will pull for Bucks this year. Hope he retires a Blazer


But I also love Smokin Joe Cronin!


RIP CITY

 

[Propagandist]

Then why are you making it black and white? Go back and read your last 10 or so posts in this thread. You read this piece, that only offers one side of the story and immediately sided with Dame and began trashing Cronin.

Who is the one making this black and white?

How specious of you. There is overwhelming evidence that Joe Cronin is a petty fuck. I'm not sure that needs gradations. We all listened to him say one thing and do another for the entirety of his tenure with the Blazers. That is what it is.

Besides, you know that's not what I was referring to. I guess it was just an attempt at an awesome gotcha moment. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[andalusian]

I think the issue here, fundamentally, is that players do not always make the best GMs.

Dame Lillard, as great a player as he is (and we all know that), is a pretty sub-par GM or GM assistant. He believed that keeping CJ as his running mate for many years is the way to go, he pushed for veteran acquisitions that brought us the joy of RoCo, he wanted GP2 and Grant - and despite the fact that these did not work, when the Blazers had rebuilt their assets after the NeO disaster - he believed that the FO's analysis of the best way forward to build a contender is wrong.

We have a long time of hearing what Dame thought would work for Portland and the influence he had on NeO first, and Cronin at the start of Cronin's tenure (Grant, GP2). We have seen that these moves were not great. It's a fact, it's in the past. there is no denying it. So, to me at least, this all comes to a (great) player that does not get that he is not a good GM. Simple as that.

We will all have the memories of Dame, both good and bad. Time to move on. This is the Scoot and Shae show now.

 

[BankTeller]

Like Lowry's, CP3's deal runs out after next season.... well, there is a 30M team option for 2024-5.

STOMP

Oh I didn’t see ‘24-‘25 was non guaranteed.

 

[julius]

Here is my read on the situation (with a lot of speculation)

Dame thinks that the Blazers weren't actually trying to put a contender around him. I don't think that's true... at least not at first. Last summer Joe went out and got Jerami Grant and GP2. Those are not rebuilding moves. Those are moves to make Dame happy. Those were better moves than anything Neil did in the last four years. I wasn't a fan of GP2, but he clearly was a "win now" move. Unfortunately it didn't work and the team still sucked. It made sense to tank and try to acquire another asset. The odds were that we most likely would not have a great pick in this draft, but fortune shined on us and got us the 3rd pick.

Lots of credible sources have said that Joe did attempt to move the pick and build around Dame. Other people claim that Joe didn't really try and most of the offers he made were disingenuous. This is one of those points that will be nearly impossible to prove either way. Dame most likely hurt the value of the pick by saying, for all intents and purposes, that he'd demand a trade if they used the pick. This is the first example of Dame making Joe's job harder. If Joe was actually trying to move the pick, this had to hurt his leverage in negotiations.

I think the path diverges here. If I'm the Blazers, I'm looking at this young superstar replacement for my aging HOF point guard and I'm thinking it's time to move on. Joe isn't an idiot. He knows that he can't build a contender around Dame in a few years time. When he couldn't flip the pick, that was the death sentence for Dame in Portland and I think both sides knew it. This is the point where they should have come together amicably and just worked out a solution where everyone leaves happy. Unfortunately that's not what happened.

What we do know, through reports, is that Dame requested a trade to only one city, and his agent did everything in his power to make it more difficult for the Blazers to trade Dame. The Heat gave a lowball offer. The Blazers didn't want to deal with Miami. Possibly because they didn't think the Heat had anything they wanted. Possibly because they didn't like being bullied into only one destination. Possibly because they felt like Miami had tampered. Either way, the Blazers weren't motivated to get something done with the Heat.

There was a report that the Blazers filed a grievance against Dame and his agent. Haynes reported that the NBA had a meeting with both sides and lawyers were involved. To me, this indicates that there is A LOT more to this story. If Joe was THAT pissed at Dame, there is clearly more to this that we have not heard. Maybe we won't ever hear about it. The Blazers haven't been airing their dirty laundry like Dame has. I just wish people would recognize that there has been transgressions from both sides, everyone is pissed, and I don't think there's an innocent person in this ordeal.

I just want to move on and be excited about the new team.

This is quite accurate, imho, and spot on (and other cliches about being correct).

In no way am I saying the team is innocent and did everything perfectly. I don't hold any allegiance to the GM or the owner (nor to the players), but Dame cut the Blazers off at the knees regarding the draft pick and undermined their ability to trade that pick FOR something good and then acted indignant that the team drafted Scoot.

As if the possibility of drafting the biggest prospect to fall into their laps since 2007 should be tossed aside like he's Anthony Bennett or Martel Webster.

I'll always be grateful for what Damian did as a Blazer, and I hope someday he comes back and is part of the organization again, but it's long past the time for things to move the fuck on.

 

[Natebishop3]

There is overwhelming evidence that Joe Cronin is a petty fuck.

All from Dame's camp.

Give me one spec of evidence that doesn't come from one of Dame's shills. Haynes, Shams, etc.

 

[theprunetang]

How specious of you. There is overwhelming evidence that Joe Cronin is a petty fuck. I'm not sure that needs gradations. We all listened to him say one thing and do another for the entirety of his tenure with the Blazers. That is what it is.

Besides, you know that's not what I was referring to. I guess it was just an attempt at an awesome gotcha moment. Pretty cool stuff.

You are just proving my point here.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

How specious of you. There is overwhelming evidence that Joe Cronin is a petty fuck. I'm not sure that needs gradations. We all listened to him say one thing and do another for the entirety of his tenure with the Blazers. That is what it is.

Besides, you know that's not what I was referring to. I guess it was just an attempt at an awesome gotcha moment. Pretty cool stuff.

Can't get much more black and white than that..........

 

[julius]

I think the issue here, fundamentally, is that players do not always make the best GMs.

Dame Lillard, as great a player as he is (and we all know that), is a pretty sub-par GM or GM assistant. He believed that keeping CJ as his running mate for many years is the way to go, he pushed for veteran acquisitions that brought us the joy of RoCo, he wanted GP2 and Grant - and despite the fact that these did not work, when the Blazers had rebuilt their assets after the NeO disaster - he believed that the FO's analysis of the best way forward to build a contender is wrong.

We have a long time of hearing what Dame thought would work for Portland and the influence he had on NeO first, and Cronin at the start of Cronin's tenure (Grant, GP2). We have seen that these moves were not great. It's a fact, it's in the past. there is no denying it. So, to me at least, this all comes to a (great) player that does not get that he is not a good GM. Simple as that.

We will all have the memories of Dame, both good and bad. Time to move on. This is the Scoot and Shae show now.

Part of me thinks Damian wants a "yes man" as a GM. He wanted someone, Neil got it (maybe not the stars, but since Damian didn't want to trade CJ, they had nothing else to trade). He wanted his bum ass cousin on the team, he got it.

 

[Propagandist]

All from Dame's camp.

Give me one spec of evidence that doesn't come from one of Dame's shills. Haynes, Shams, etc.

This isn't FoxNews and CNN. Give me a break. It's just Dame's narrative.

What's more likely: that the seemingly weaselly GM is actual that way or a guy who has been the same for 10 years is telling the truth?

 

[Propagandist]

Can't get much more black and white than that..........

This place sometimes. You're right, certain aspects of some things are sometimes pretty close to black and white. Good work.

 

[Haakzilla]

Rather than more hit piece quotes Dame should fire Goodwin ASAP -- that would do more to repair his tarnished image than continuing his typical teenage girl social media style drama

 

[Natebishop3]

This isn't FoxNews and CNN. Give me a break. It's just Dame's narrative.

What's more likely: that the seemingly weaselly GM is actual that way or a guy who has been the same for 10 years is telling the truth?

Do you know Dame personally?

You're basing your opinion on a public persona.

 

[julius]

This isn't FoxNews and CNN. Give me a break. It's just Dame's narrative.

What's more likely: that the seemingly weaselly GM is actual that way or a guy who has been the same for 10 years is telling the truth?

You mean the guy who went from "I'm loyal, don't care if I don't win, I want the grind. I'm content staying in Portland, helping these guys grow...Those guys are bums who demand trades to already established teams, I'll never do that" to "trade me to the team who went to the finals"?

that guy?

 

[maxiep]

One thing to think about...if Damian hadn't demanded a trade hours into FA, hadn't singled out Miami as his sole destination, hadn't had his people threaten that he'd no show, "raise hell" and still demand to be traded to Miami if traded elsewhere, and instead had quietly listed 3 teams but said "I really would prefer Miami" and promised not to let it slip, I'm willing to bet that he'd be in Miami.

I partially agree. Unfortunately for him, part of Miami's strategy--which they have executed before--was to use the disgruntled player to lower the trade value given in return. I'm not sure Miami was ever willing to pay retail for Dame. Other teams were at least willing to pay $.80 on the dollar (which is about the most you can hope when trading for a superstar and not a completely moronic Minnesota FO).

 

[maxiep]

I think the issue here, fundamentally, is that players do not always make the best GMs.

Dame Lillard, as great a player as he is (and we all know that), is a pretty sub-par GM or GM assistant. He believed that keeping CJ as his running mate for many years is the way to go, he pushed for veteran acquisitions that brought us the joy of RoCo, he wanted GP2 and Grant - and despite the fact that these did not work, when the Blazers had rebuilt their assets after the NeO disaster - he believed that the FO's analysis of the best way forward to build a contender is wrong.

We have a long time of hearing what Dame thought would work for Portland and the influence he had on NeO first, and Cronin at the start of Cronin's tenure (Grant, GP2). We have seen that these moves were not great. It's a fact, it's in the past. there is no denying it. So, to me at least, this all comes to a (great) player that does not get that he is not a good GM. Simple as that.

We will all have the memories of Dame, both good and bad. Time to move on. This is the Scoot and Shae show now.

Superstars rarely make great GMs. Larry Bird and Jerry West were the exceptions to the rule, and largely because they were grinders.

Magic Johnson was a TERRIBLE coach because he saw the floor differently than other players. He could see guys would be open before everyone else, and coached that way. His players couldn't see it. MJ was awful because no one was more competitive. Superstars have something 99% of the players in the league don't. Give me the crappy role players. They make awesome GMs.

 

[wizenheimer]

Where's the other side of the story?

I'm curious here....what is the other side of the story on some of these points?

* Dame said that if the Miami trade was off the table, he'd like to rescind his trade request. Cronin told him it was too late for that. That seems pretty credible. Watching Dame for 11 years we can see how Dame would have wanted to backtrack to Portland. And watching what transpired in this situation since Dame asked to be traded, we see the reasons for Cronin to say no. Things has simply gone too far. There doesn't seem to be room for another side there unless Dame is lying

* apparently, this part of the article has some people up in arms:

"According to sources, Portland had asked Lillard to sit out the final 10 games of the 2022-23 regular season to help the franchise improve its lottery odds. He was told the higher the draft pick, the better chance they had at using the pick to facilitate a trade for a proven veteran player. He reluctantly acquiesced to being shut down, citing a "calf injury."

Portland went 1-9 to finish the season and would go on to win the No. 3 pick and select Scoot Henderson, a promising young point guard the team planned to keep."

first of all: the tanking. Every single poster in this forum absolutely knew what the Blazers were doing. Every Blazer fan knew what they were doing. It was to the point that when the Blazers won that game at Minny, people were going nuts because of how that might hurt Portland's lottery odds. And by the way, every single person in the NBA front office knew what Portland was doing just as they knew what Houston, San Antonio, Detroit, and Charlotte were doing: buying tickets in the Wemby Sweepstakes and tickets were selling for one loss each. And the NBA front office didn't care about it. There is no two sides about that and it was the Blazers who announced that Dame had a hamstring issue. And Dame was having the best season of his career so it's pretty easy to imagine he would have been reluctant to stop playing

the notion that somehow Dame was letting some big secret cat out of the bag seems a bit crazy

the other part, the one about Portland telling Dame that a higher pick would increase the chances of trading for a better player...does anybody really doubt they told him that? That's the exact type of thing that Cronin had been saying publicly for months. Does anybody believe the Blazers specifically told Dame before the lottery if they could get Scoot they were keeping him? That's not to say that Dame shouldn't have allowed for the possibility. He'd been in the NBA for 11 years and that was the 12th lottery and draft he'd seen in his 11 seasons

obviously, Haynes has been a hack-o-matic in the past. And just as obviously when writing about Dame he's about 95% invested in Dame's POV. That article was from Dame's POV, but I really don't see anything so egregiously slanted to believe that the other side of the story would reveal a different set of facts. But maybe I'm missing obvious nuance

 

[Pinwheel1]

I'm curious here....what is the other side of the story on some of these points?


obviously, Haynes has been a hack-o-matic in the past. And just as obviously when writing about Dame he's about 95% invested in Dame's POV. That article was from Dame's POV, but I really don't see anything so egregiously slanted to believe that the other side of the story would reveal a different set of facts. But maybe I'm missing obvious nuance

I think it was the part that Cronin didn't have enough respect for Dame to even talk to him at the Blazer facility is what some had an issue with.
It seems childish for Joe to do that, but I personally think there was more to it than Joe just being a dick.

 

[HailBlazers]

I think it was the part that Cronin didn't have enough respect for Dame to even talk to him at the Blazer facility is what some had an issue with.
It seems childish for Joe to do that, but I personally think there was more to it than Joe just being a dick.

Like perhaps Joe was negotiating for his life and didn't want any distractions.
Or the fact that he'd already told Dame at his house there's no coming back.