I guess I'm out of touch.

[KingSpeed]

TO use your mirror analogy: If you want to see racism in this country, look in the mirror.

 

[rocketeer]

So you're saying that race has nothing to do with culture or economics? It's all tied together. Black kids have to go to worse schools and live in areas with more drugs and violence. It's not an excuse or a cop out. It's reality. Open your freaking eyes.

going to worse schools and living in worse areas has nothing to do with race and everything to do with wealth. that is the reality.

of course there is a lot more to the entire discussion than just that and much of it has to do with the past not things that are actually going on right now.

 

[maxiep]

I've seen and heard racists with my eyes and ears. If you haven't, then you are sheltered or not paying attention.

So have I. It doesn't mean that it's mainstream. There are people that don't trust Catholics; are we an anti-Catholic society too?

 

[KingSpeed]

I hear people say it, but other than specific incidents by nutjobs on the fringes, I have yet to see it practiced every day. If it's endemic, it should be easy to spot it.

You may very well live in a neighborhood where there is no racism. Where people are reasonable. Those neighborhoods obviously exist because Obama won. Obviously not everyone is racist. But there is lots of racism in this country. Go South.

 

[maxiep]

TO use your mirror analogy: If you want to see racism in this country, look in the mirror.

Okay, how am I racist? How am I sexist? How am I anti-gay? How am I bigoted against other religions?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

So, who is keeping them down? Who crushed the dreams of Barry Gordy? Robert Johnson? Ken Chennault? Stan O'Neill?

I maintain the biggest excuse to not succeed is facing black people in the mirror.

So the reason there isn't a black person in the Forbes top 25 richest American (I'm assuming) is because all black people use excuses instead of just trying to get rich?

Obama, while breaking a major barrier, hasn't broken the barrier I would like to see broken . . . to have a proportionate number of CEOs or whatever in the private sector.

I don't know how long that barrier will take to break . . . it will be harder than being a gov't official. But I suspect there will be a day when seeing the picture of a black man as one of the top 10 richest Americans will happen. I have to feel that way today, I just witness this country elect a black president (i still maintain that the presidency deserves an asterisks . . . or at lest give Bush the assist.)

 

[rocketeer]

You may very well live in a neighborhood where there is no racism. Where people are reasonable. Those neighborhoods obviously exist because Obama won. Obviously not everyone is racist. But there is lots of racism in this country. Go South.

there isn't as much racism in this country as you are implying. yes there is racism here. there is racism everyone and there always will be.

are you really pretending that only reasonable people voted for obama and only unreasonable racist people voted for mccain?

 

[maxiep]

In fact your remark was racist. You were implying that all black people are failures. You maybe didn't mean to, but...Read your comment again.

Nope. I was responding to idea that there should be proportional racial representation in the Forbes 400. Eric, how many minority neighborhoods have you lived in? For how long?

 

[KingSpeed]

going to worse schools and living in worse areas has nothing to do with race and everything to do with wealth. that is the reality.

And why do those blacks lack wealth? Because of where they came from. The way we treated them in our country. But it's getting better now. And that's why tonight is so amazing. Over the last 40 years, we have gotten better. And now look at tonight! Amazing. Barrier broken.

I'm not gonna fight this anymore. I know what I know. You know what you know. Tonight is an amazing night in American, if not, World history. This is a moment Martin Luther King Jr dreamed of.

 

[maxiep]

So the reason there isn't a black person in the Forbes top 25 richest American (I'm assuming) is because all black people use excuses instead of just trying to get rich?

Obama, while breaking a major barrier, hasn't broken the barrier I would like to see broken . . . to have a proportionate number of CEOs or whatever in the private sector.

I don't know how long that barrier will take to break . . . it will be harder than being a gov't official. But I suspect there will be a day when seeing the picture of a black man as one of the top 10 richest Americans will happen. I have to feel that way today, I just witness this country elect a black president (i still maintain that the presidency deserves an asterisks . . . or at lest give Bush the assist.)

See, identity is important to you. Why does everything have to be proportional?

Achievement is important to me. Merit is important to me. Nothing else matters.

 

[maxiep]

And why do those blacks lack wealth? Because of where they came from. The way we treated them in our country. But it's getting better now. And that's why tonight is so amazing. Over the last 40 years, we have gotten better. And now look at tonight! Amazing. Barrier broken.

Perhaps its cultural. Perhaps it's because we've enslaved so many in the culture of welfare and low expectations. I personally know plenty of wealthy black people.

I'm not gonna fight this anymore. I know what I know. You know what you know. Tonight is an amazing night in American, if not, World history. This is a moment Martin Luther King Jr dreamed of.

Actually, MLK would be ashamed. You're judging Barack Obama by the color of his skin, rather than by the content of his character.

 

[RISE WITH IT]

Obama didn't win the presidency because of his race. He is now president because he can relate to people. He isn't a disconnected tight ass who uses fear tactics. Truly a man of the people.

 

[Run BJM]

What is the racism or sexism you've experienced? How were you not treated equally? Please be specific and show how it was endemic and not happenstance.

Personally, I think the real divides in this country are cultural and economic, not racial. Say what you will, but living in SE DC, the South Side of Chicago and the Lower East Side in NY is not living life as a member of the majority. I see a lot of excuse making as to why people feel they can't make it, why they're being held down, but I've always believed it's a cop-out.

If for some reason this election is important to black people, can we drop the act that we're a racist country? If we were, he wouldn't have been elected.

Seriously? How about minorities being denied from certain areas when buying or renting a house/apartment? Or having more difficulties getting loans? Being harassed at certain retail stores? Randomly pulled over by the police? All this stuff is real today and there's a lot more than that. Sure there aren't many lynchings or segregated drinking fountains around but its ignorant to think that racism isn't a factor in the U.S. today. You think its not a big deal that there's finally a dominating black figure in the media (I'll leave out Oprah since its mostly only middle aged women who identify with her)? IMO that's a big deal. Imagine growing up and nearly every cartoon, toy, TV show, video game, etc. etc. was dominated by whites. Most of everything you're taught in history is about whites. It seems trivial but IMO this will be a big deal in the future when young black kids can see a black person in the most powerful position on the planet.

The divides are cultural and economic but it just happens to be blacks who are on the short end of the stick there. People born into those conditions are at a major disadvantage to get out compared to the majority of people. Its hard to get out of the ghetto when you have to go to a shitty public school and get a shitty education and you don't have strong parental guidance. Do you really blame the kids for not working their asses off on their own accord? Lord knows where I'd be if my parents never made me do well in school. Not to mention I went to pretty good public schools my whole life (relative to the other ones at least). Its hard to get a job good enough to move your ass out of the ghetto if all you have is a HS diploma (assuming you can't afford college). I mean at least dumbass kids with money can go to college and have some type of extra credentials even if they're complete fuckups and dumb as a post. As long as you have the damn paper that says you did X, Y and Z in college you're at an automatic advantage over anyone who doesn't.

Lastly, I don't think anyone is saying America is a racist country but its absurd to say racism doesn't exist and has no effect on blacks' lives.

Oh, and I'm white as fuck BTW.

 

[rocketeer]

And why do those blacks lack wealth? Because of where they came from. The way we treated them in our country. But it's getting better now.

i know this. it's a complicated thing to address.

but this country isn't any less racist than it was one day ago, or one week ago, or one year ago because obama is going to be the next president.

I'm not gonna fight this anymore. I know what I know. You know what you know. Tonight is an amazing night in American, if not, World history. This is a moment Martin Luther King Jr dreamed of.

tonight is an amazing night if you previous thought the US was incapable of electing a black president. tonight is an amazing night for you if you strongly agree with obama's policies.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

See, identity is important to you. Why does everything have to be proportional?

Achievement is important to me. Merit is important to me. Nothing else matters.

If achievment and merit is important to you and nothing else matters, you should be the one who is upset with the fact black people are getting the short end of the stick. Why isn't there a black american who is one of the richest people in America.

You think white people work that much harder and achieve that much more than blacks to the point that no Blakc people (not one) make the top 25(or whatever it is)? Really maxie, don't you think that is naive thinking . . .

 

[RISE WITH IT]

MLK would be ashamed??? Really.

 

[rocketeer]

People born into those conditions are at a major disadvantage to get out compared to the majority of people. Its hard to get out of the ghetto when you have to go to a shitty public school and get a shitty education and you don't have strong parental guidance. Do you really blame the kids for not working their asses off on their own accord? Lord knows where I'd be if my parents never made me do well in school. Not to mention I went to pretty good public schools my whole life (relative to the other ones at least). Its hard to get a job good enough to move your ass out of the ghetto if all you have is a HS diploma (assuming you can't afford college). I mean at least dumbass kids with money can go to college and have some type of extra credentials even if they're complete fuckups and dumb as a post. As long as you have the damn paper that says you did X, Y and Z in college you're at an automatic advantage over anyone who doesn't.

you notice how you didn't mention race anywhere there. the same is true whether you are white or black. the biggest part has nothing to do with race and entirely the economic situation you are born into. and while that economic situation does relate to how races were treated in the past, the problem now is mostly economic.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

you notice how you didn't mention race anywhere there. the same is true whether you are white or black. the biggest part has nothing to do with race and entirely the economic situation you are born into. and while that economic situation does relate to how races were treated in the past, the problem now is mostly economic.

Double post of never mind

 

[The_Lillard_King]

you notice how you didn't mention race anywhere there. the same is true whether you are white or black. the biggest part has nothing to do with race and entirely the economic situation you are born into. and while that economic situation does relate to how races were treated in the past, the problem now is mostly economic.

Never mind

 

[Run BJM]

you notice how you didn't mention race anywhere there. the same is true whether you are white or black. the biggest part has nothing to do with race and entirely the economic situation you are born into. and while that economic situation does relate to how races were treated in the past, the problem now is mostly economic.

Notice how you cut the first sentence out of that paragraph which addresses that. Seriously dude, WTF? That was pathetic.

 

[MARIS61]

I would offer to anyone who still feels discriminated against that perhaps it is time to stop with the excuses.

That's like saying it's time for quadriplegics to toss their wheelchairs and walk like men.

Sure, a few weak people work the system and play on sympathies, but racism is rampant among the less-educated, and among the less-travelled, and among our most well-intentioned politicians in particular.

I would offer to anyone who still feels discriminated against that perhaps they are.

I would suggest maxiep take a solo stroll through Watts, or Harlem, and strike up a conversation with whomever he comes across. Discuss the economy, or your families, or share your hopes and dreams with each other.

When I worked for the USACE in the old Multnomah Building in Portland (now it's an Embassy Suite Hotel) I would occasionally corral a street beggar and take him or her to lunch. You just cannot believe the amazing people that are buried under those rags and stench. To hear a tiny episode from their lives will change you forever. I'm not talking about excuses, because they rarely offered any. Just a story about their youth, their loved ones, the places they've been, the things they've done. Real people like yourself, but who faced adversities they could not overcome. It can bring you to tears. It can make you feel lucky. It can make you feel humble.

 

[rocketeer]

Notice how you cut the first sentence out of that paragraph which addresses that. Seriously dude, WTF? That was pathetic.

yeah. i did.

doesn't change my point in any way. you said blacks were on the short end of the stick and then explained a scenario which would effect any person of any race equally. that is my point.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

MANY bumfuck states. Did you see and hear all the horribly racist people at the Palin rallies? There is still a TON of racism in this country.

nope. black president, america is not racist.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

I frankly saw more hate from supposedly open-minded liberals than I ever did at McCain or Palin rallies. I also saw Sen. McCain as the only one to call out his own supporters for mistaken beliefs.

Testify!!!!!

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Perhaps its cultural. Perhaps it's because we've enslaved so many in the culture of welfare and low expectations. I personally know plenty of wealthy black people.



Actually, MLK would be ashamed. You're judging Barack Obama by the color of his skin, rather than by the content of his character.

You ask us to give you examples of racism and then you discard the reasons as perhaps cultural or perhaps we've enslaved black people into low expectations . . . and then offer an off the wall antidote that you know plenty of wealthy black people?????

I think I got suckered into this thread . . . you don't want to hear reason why you are out of touch . . . you baited us (wth the title) into debating whether racism exists in our society.

 

[Run BJM]

yeah. i did.

doesn't change my point in any way. you said blacks were on the short end of the stick and then explained a scenario which would effect any person of any race equally. that is my point.

Ok you just supported my point assuming you do agree with me that most of those less fortunate people are black.

 

[maxiep]

Seriously? How about minorities being denied from certain areas when buying or renting a house/apartment? Or having more difficulties getting loans? Being harassed at certain retail stores? Randomly pulled over by the police? All this stuff is real today and there's a lot more than that. Sure there aren't many lynchings or segregated drinking fountains around but its ignorant to think that racism isn't a factor in the U.S. today. You think its not a big deal that there's finally a dominating black figure in the media (I'll leave out Oprah since its mostly only middle aged women who identify with her)? IMO that's a big deal. Imagine growing up and nearly every cartoon, toy, TV show, video game, etc. etc. was dominated by whites. Most of everything you're taught in history is about whites. It seems trivial but IMO this will be a big deal in the future when young black kids can see a black person in the most powerful position on the planet.

You're talking to me about outliers. I'm interested in mainstream, structural racism. In which areas are blacks consistently denied purchasing or renting a home? How many people have difficulty getting loans simply because they're black? At which retail stores are black people consistently harrassed?

My point is that it doesn't matter that George Washington, Abraham Lincoln or Franklin Roosevelt were white. It matters that they were great leaders with big ideas. Why is identity so important? No one has been able to answer that for me. No one has been able to tell me that these incidents of racism keep people from reaching their potential.

The divides are cultural and economic but it just happens to be blacks who are on the short end of the stick there. People born into those conditions are at a major disadvantage to get out compared to the majority of people.

There are more white people living in poverty than black people.

Its hard to get out of the ghetto when you have to go to a shitty public school and get a shitty education and you don't have strong parental guidance. Do you really blame the kids for not working their asses off on their own accord?

Yes, I do. I blame the parents, I blame the kids and I blame the teachers. There is a culture of low expectations that don't challenge people because they don't want to hurt their feelings.

Lord knows where I'd be if my parents never made me do well in school. Not to mention I went to pretty good public schools my whole life (relative to the other ones at least). Its hard to get a job good enough to move your ass out of the ghetto if all you have is a HS diploma (assuming you can't afford college). I mean at least dumbass kids with money can go to college and have some type of extra credentials even if they're complete fuckups and dumb as a post. As long as you have the damn paper that says you did X, Y and Z in college you're at an automatic advantage over anyone who doesn't.

That's patently untrue. If you want to get into the best universities in this country, be a minority and be poor. Not only will they lower their standards, they'll pay for you to go.

Besides, plenty of people without college degrees have managed to succeed. Education is no excuse.

Lastly, I don't think anyone is saying America is a racist country but its absurd to say racism doesn't exist and has no effect on blacks' lives.

This is a false argument. First, people have been doing nothing but saying America is racist. I've never said that racism exists, but that it's an outlier. Furthermore, I believe that minorities use it as a crutch as to why they never succeeded.

Oh, and I'm white as fuck BTW.

Bully for you. I admire your level of White Guilt.

 

[rocketeer]

Ok you just supported my point assuming you do agree with me that most of those less fortunate people are black.

to quote the last sentence of my post that you called pathetic:

"while that economic situation does relate to how races were treated in the past, the problem now is mostly economic."

 

[maxiep]

You ask us to give you examples of racism and then you discard the reasons as perhaps cultural or perhaps we've enslaved black people into low expectations . . . and then offer an off the wall antidote that you know plenty of wealthy black people?????

I'm glad you found the fact that bringing up my rich black friends was a dumb argument--it was meant as a counterpoint to all the silly outliers presented to me as an example as to why racism is rampant in our country. And I didn't ask for outliers, I asked for systemic and structural racism. The only one that came close to passing muster was cops pulling over people for DWB. However, getting pulled over a few times isn't an excuse as to why you can't succeed.

I think I got suckered into this thread . . . you don't want to hear reason why you are out of touch . . . you baited us (wth the title) into debating whether racism exists in our society.

I didn't sucker anybody. I asked why identity was important and I have yet to see a satisfactory answer. In my opinion, it's a veneer. It's window dressing. In the end, you rise and fall on your merits. The vast majority of people don't give a shit what color you are, whether you're male or female, who you go to bed with or to which God you pray (or whether you even do). The vast majority of people care whether or not you can do your job or whether or not you're a good person.

 

[Dumpy]

The big deal is that a great majority of the population judged him by his message, and didn't dismiss him solely due to his skin color. That the population at large could evaluate him on content signifies that, as a nation, we are starting to get away from the racism that has engulfed the nation for 150 years.