Notice Joe Cronin New GM

[blazerkor]

Wut?

where is it "I'm anointing him as the savior"?

I have said, in this forum, several times, that I was hoping for another GM besides Cronin to handle the draft and next off-season. He has done nothing that gives me confidence in his ability to manage either. In fact, and I've said this as well, his seeming focus on Grant worries me and I'd think a more experienced GM might have a more expansive option tree. But then, it's possible Cronin does and isn't revealing it

I think he did a good job of dismantling the dead-end roster that Olshey kept rebooting. And he gets an A+ fro finally breaking up the failed Dame/CJ experiment. And even though I've pushed back against what I see as way-over-the-top negativity about him, that doesn't mean that I'm real satisfied with the return he got from the trades. I think the return could have been better, but I also believe he was operating under constraints outlined by the Vulcans, and that the better 'realistic' return I would want is not that much better than what was got

I also recognize that all draft assets he could have leveraged for the players he traded would have been conditional. And with conditional draft picks, circumstances can monkey wrench a lot of plans

Yeah, you've already said that the pick dropping all the way back to the Bucks 2025 first makes it a trade that didn't yield as much as you wanted. I think all of us are on the same page that we would have liked to have seen better contengencies but we don't know if Joe was so sure that the pick this year would convey that he didn't push too hard for better contengencies or he got out negotiated by a more tenured GM who wasn't under the same constraints.

Any way you cut it, that trade went from being acceptable to bad but we don't know if the demands put on Cronin by ownership left him with any other option. I'm glad to finally move on from the Dame/CJ era and wish we had someone else piloting this supposedly quick rebuild to a contender around Dame but we have Cronin. So now I'm hoping that he has a lot more to him than what we've seen when he has less parameters hindering him and the clout of a GM with a four year deal as opposed to an interim GM who is in the application process for the actual job. Let's wait and see and hope we somehow end up landing two forwards that are the best forward tandem that we've given Dame.

 

[wizenheimer]

Nobody can explain to me how the Pelicans were willing to give up the 8th pick (at the time) if they sucked with CJ, yet werent willing to trade the 8th pick if the CJ trade worked out.

so if the trade worked out and the Pels didn't have the 8th pick to trade any more they should just invent one?

I've said before I wish Cronin would have added the insurance of the Laker's pick. But at the time, but at the time that was the 14th pick and that would have been a real long shot ask, especially considerig it was betting against Lebron. Pretty sure I said back in Feb. I'd have preferred the Lakers 2024 pick, with reasonable protections over this years pick as that would have seemed more likely to convey

of course I don't know what Cronin asked for and/or what the Pels refused

 

[wizenheimer]

I swear you like misinterpreting people on purpose.

On one hand you're saying 2+2=4; on the other you're saying 4-2=0

how do you like that one?

 

[Ed O]

They got another 1st for Oubre and attached Rubio to late 1sts to move up to 17. But you think that trade is bad, the previous off season they paid OKC multiple 1sts just to take CP3. So in essence the Thunder ended up with 4 1sts, a move up in the 1st, and pick swaps for CP3.

This means nothing to what the Pelicans were willing to give up.

It was outstanding to get picks to take him and THEN get picks to trade him.

Talk about buying low and selling high (albeit not as high as maybe he could have sold). I would love Cronin to stumble into deals like those...

 

[hoopsjock]

so if the trade worked out and the Pels didn't have the 8th pick to trade any more they should just invent one?

I've said before I wish Cronin would have added the insurance of the Laker's pick. But at the time, but at the time that was the 14th pick and that would have been a real long shot ask, especially considerig it was betting against Lebron. Pretty sure I said back in Feb. I'd have preferred the Lakers 2024 pick, with reasonable protections over this years pick as that would have seemed more likely to convey

of course I don't know what Cronin asked for and/or what the Pels refused

In this particular instance with this particular trade partner YES, 100% knowing that they just happened to possibly have a 2nd lottery pick. Again, for the tenth time PLEASE READ THIS: I NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD GUARANTEE THE 8TH PICK, JUST COVER POSSIBLE OUTCOMES WHERE THE PELICANS IN THIS ONE AND ONLY CASE GOT THE 8TH PICK FROM THE LAKERS INSTEAD OF US. If we got unlucky with both, nothing Cronin can do about that and I'd give him a pass since he exhausted all options to try and maximize the value before it fell to a future pick.

 

[hoopsjock]

It was outstanding to get picks to take him and THEN get picks to trade him.

Talk about buying low and selling high (albeit not as high as maybe he could have sold). I would love Cronin to stumble into deals like those...

We don't do that here, we're the team that buys high and then gives them away for free.

 

[wizenheimer]

In this particular instance with this particular trade partner YES, 100% knowing that they just happened to possibly have a 2nd lottery pick. Again, for the tenth time PLEASE READ THIS: I NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD GUARANTEE THE 8TH PICK, JUST COVER POSSIBLE OUTCOMES WHERE THE PELICANS IN THIS ONE AND ONLY CASE GOT THE 8TH PICK FROM THE LAKERS INSTEAD OF US. If we got unlucky with both, nothing Cronin can do about that and I'd give him a pass since he exhausted all options to try and maximize the value before it fell to a future pick.

and you know he didn't ask for another pick but the Pels refused?

 

[BonesJones]

so if the trade worked out and the Pels didn't have the 8th pick to trade any more they should just invent one?

I've said before I wish Cronin would have added the insurance of the Laker's pick. But at the time, but at the time that was the 14th pick and that would have been a real long shot ask, especially considerig it was betting against Lebron. Pretty sure I said back in Feb. I'd have preferred the Lakers 2024 pick, with reasonable protections over this years pick as that would have seemed more likely to convey

of course I don't know what Cronin asked for and/or what the Pels refused

Just invent one? Huh?

If it was a longshot that that's even more of a knock against Cronin for not covering his bases. If you can mitigate your risk more at no extra expense, it being a "longhsot" is not an excuse.

New Orleans was willing to give up the 8th pick at the time without knowing if it worked out. There's no logical way a good negotiator wouldn't have been able to say "If this trade works for you and we lose your pick because of it, we want the Lakers pick in the longshot it falls between 5-10 to replace your pick"... They were already willing to give up a pick between 5-10, so an unlikely scenario where they still had a pick between 5 and 10 AND made the playoffs should've been negotiated in.

I think Cronin just assumed they wouldn't have the Lakers pick instead of choosing to mitigate his risk at no extra cost to himself, which is pure incompetence from a managing standpoint.

 

[BonesJones]

On one hand you're saying 2+2=4; on the other you're saying 4-2=0

how do you like that one?

You don't even know who you're misinterpreting apparently haha. That wasn't my quote.

 

[blazerkor]

and you know he didn't ask for another pick but the Pels refused?

I don't think anyone is saying that they know one way or another but the fact that Cronin couldn't put his foot down and say, "If you get better from this deal to the point the pick doesn't convey we're going to need something at least as good as this pick." and be believed by Griffin or walk away from the deal, doesn't bode well for future negotiations. In what world does it make sense that the Pels did better and got playoff experience, so we got less? I don't know why this is still being discussed though because you didn't like the deal. You liked it with the pick conveying but even then weren't jumping for joy for it and have said that you think it was a bad deal for us with the Bucks 2025 first instead of a late lotto pick now.

I think you're just saying that we can't just call Cronin a bad negotiator because we have no clue what happened during the negotiations or exactly what the environment was that the negotiations took place in. While you're right that none of us know for sure how everything came together or what Cronin's marching orders were, we never really do and we all still critique trades. So, to me and from what you've admitted before, this was a mediocre trade that went bad. But hey, it got the guy the job and if that's because it was exactly what the Vulcans wanted or because they don't give a fuck, at least Cronin has the job. That's definitely a win for him, it's just questionable if it's a win for us as Trail Blazers fans.

 

[blazerfan11]

You're making the same arguments that you've still failed to debunk. Name a trade where the conditions were good if the trade bombed for the other team, but got worse the better they did? Trades are set up the opposite way where you receive the same or less protection the following year or it conveys if the team makes the playoffs (Chicago pick). Hence why it's a massive failure to not at least negotiate the possibility of the Lakers pick falling into that protection when the New Orleans pick didn't.

The Blazers/Nets trade with Gerald Wallace was top-3 protected for several years. So if it didn't convey, Portland had the same value of conditions for the next few years.

I've already told you that it would've been still possible for the Lakers pick to move up, it wasn't a guarantee, but that's why Cronin isn't cut out for being in charge of those situations if he can't negotiate what should have been an easy inclusion, whether that be because of negligence or inexperience.

Can you give an example of a trade where, if protected pick #1 didn't convey, that the receiving team then would be owed another protected pick from the same draft class (if it was outside the protection)?
Has there ever occurred the conditions that you expected from Cronin?

 

[blazerkor]

Can you give an example of a trade where, if protected pick #1 didn't convey, that the receiving team then would be owed another protected pick from the same draft class (if it was outside the protection)?
Has there ever occurred the conditions that you expected from Cronin?

That's so hard to go back and check but I'm pretty sure there have been conditions like those. The best of whatever pick a team has on draft day but top 3 protected. It's very hard to go back and find conditions for picks that have already been conveyed, so you're not going to get a link from me but yeah, I'm pretty damn sure I've seen it. It wouldn't have been an outlandish request from Cronin at all and I really hope he requested it at the very least. It also wouldn't have been at all unheard of for the pick to roll through the 5 picks between now and the Buck's 2025 with top 4 protections. That shit happens all of the time.

 

[blazerfan11]

Just invent one? Huh?

If it was a longshot that that's even more of a knock against Cronin for not covering his bases. If you can mitigate your risk more at no extra expense, it being a "longhsot" is not an excuse.

New Orleans was willing to give up the 8th pick at the time without knowing if it worked out. There's no logical way a good negotiator wouldn't have been able to say "If this trade works for you and we lose your pick because of it, we want the Lakers pick in the longshot it falls between 5-10 to replace your pick"... They were already willing to give up a pick between 5-10, so an unlikely scenario where they still had a pick between 5 and 10 AND made the playoffs should've been negotiated in.

I think Cronin just assumed they wouldn't have the Lakers pick instead of choosing to mitigate his risk at no extra cost to himself, which is pure incompetence from a managing standpoint.

Can you give an example of that kind of protection in a trade that has happened in the past?
Why didn't Memphis get some protection on their 2022 first-round Lakers pick from New Orleans? An 11-20 pick in the 2022 draft could have been very valuable to them. They ended up with two 2nd round picks instead, one of them in 2025.

 

[blazerfan11]

That's so hard to go back and check but I'm pretty sure there have been conditions like those. The best of whatever pick a team has on draft day but top 3 protected. It's very hard to go back and find conditions for picks that have already been conveyed, so you're not going to get a link from me but yeah, I'm pretty damn sure I've seen it. It wouldn't have been an outlandish request from Cronin at all and I really hope he requested it at the very least. It also wouldn't have been at all unheard of for the pick to roll through the 5 picks between now and the Buck's 2025 with top 4 protections. That shit happens all of the time.

Why didn't the Grizzlies GM get some kind of protection on the Lakers pick from New Orleans? They don't even get a future first-round pick. All they get now is a 2022 second round pick and a 2025 second round pick.

 

[blazerkor]

Why didn't the Grizzlies GM get some kind of protection on the Lakers pick from New Orleans? They don't even get a future first-round pick. All they get now is a 2022 second round pick and a 2025 second round pick.

That's a great question but that trade didn't have the disparity of talent going to the Pels that ours did. Also just because one bad trade was made doesn't excuse our bad trade. If anything you're establishing a pattern that Griffin gets over on other GMs in this way and we should have been ready for that.

It is a different situation though because the Pelicans getting better from their trade with the Grizz couldn't result in the Grizz getting less but that's what happened to us... we created a situation where if the trade made the Grizz better by enough we would get less because of it.

 

[wizenheimer]

You don't even know who you're misinterpreting apparently haha. That wasn't my quote.

I was replying directly to you about what you said directly to me...there was no misinterpretaion

 

[wizenheimer]

I think Cronin just assumed they wouldn't have the Lakers pick instead of choosing to mitigate his risk at no extra cost to himself, which is pure incompetence from a managing standpoint.

in other words, you are accusing Cronin of incompetence because you are assuming he assumed there was no need to mitigate his risk by asking for the Laker's pick. But you don't know any of that to be true

let me suggest an alternative possibility: Cronin asked for the better of the Pels' or Lakers' 2022 picks, New Orleans responded by giving him the choice of either the Laker 2022 (if it was 5-10) or the Milwaukee 2025 (top-4 protected), but not both, and he made a bet that there was a better chance the Milwaukee pick would convey. I ask, is that a reasonable possibility? Is that scenario more reasonable than the assumption than Cronin is an incompetent idiot?

and if those were the conditions New Orleans set, and the bet Cronin made on Feb. 8 when the Lakers were only a half game out of 8th seed, and AD had returned to the lineup about 10 days earlier, and the Lakers were 14th in the lottery standings, and their pick wouldn't convey unless they dropped all the way into the top-10, and the Pels were almost certainly insisting on top-4 protections for either 1st...well then would betting on the Buck's pick instead of he Laker pick really been that bad of a bet?

 

[blazerkor]

in other words, you are accusing Cronin of incompetence because you are assuming he assumed there was no need to mitigate his risk by asking for the Laker's pick. But you don't know any of that to be true

let me suggest an alternative possibility: Cronin asked for the better of the Pels' or Lakers' 2022 picks, New Orleans responded by giving him the choice of either the Laker 2022 (if it was 5-10) or the Milwaukee 2025 (top-4 protected), but not both, and he made a bet that there was a better chance the Milwaukee pick would convey. I ask, is that a reasonable possibility? Is that scenario more reasonable than the assumption than Cronin is an incompetent idiot?

and if those were the conditions New Orleans set, and the bet Cronin made on Feb. 8 when the Lakers were only a half game out of 8th seed, and AD had returned to the lineup about 10 days earlier, and the Lakers were 14th in the lottery standings, and their pick wouldn't convey unless they dropped all the way into the top-10, and the Pels were almost certainly insisting on top-4 protections for either 1st...well then would betting on the Buck's pick instead of he Laker pick really been that bad of a bet?

My only problem in the scenario is that Griffin is dictating all of the terms. At that point we were already out of the luxury tax and the Pels were getting the best player in the trade. Again if I'm Cronin I would be harping on the fact that they were gaming out a scenario in which the trade worked out better for the Pels and when the Bucks 2025 pick was mentioned, that would have to be shut down because the Pels had potentially 5 picks between the one they were offering with protection and the that Bucks 2025 pick. I guess if Cronin had seeded complete control of the negotiations that your possibility is reasonable but only if Cronin had allowed himself to be backed into a corner in which another GM felt comfortable giving him that sort of ultimatum.

I really hope that isn't how it went down because in your hypothetical situation Cronin is getting treated like shit and taking it.

 

[wizenheimer]

I really hope that isn't how it went down because in your hypothetical situation Cronin is getting treated like shit and taking it.

you do understand where that leads, right? ----> Portland holds on to CJ till he retires

this discussion has run it's course I think because there just doesn't seem to be any way you'll accept the possibility that CJ wasn't worth significantly more than Portland traded him for

 

[blazerkor]

you do understand where that leads, right? ----> Portland holds on to CJ till he retires

this discussion has run it's course I think because there just doesn't seem to be any way you'll accept the possibility that CJ wasn't worth significantly more than Portland traded him for

I don't think it was significantly more than what Portland thought they traded him for... just slightly more than that. I do however believe that he was worth significantly more than Portland ended up with for him.

 

[wizenheimer]

I don't think it was significantly more than what Portland thought they traded him for... just slightly more than that. I do however believe that he was worth significantly more than Portland ended up with for him.

because of the pick not conveying?

 

[BonesJones]

Can you give an example of that kind of protection in a trade that has happened in the past?
Why didn't Memphis get some protection on their 2022 first-round Lakers pick from New Orleans? An 11-20 pick in the 2022 draft could have been very valuable to them. They ended up with two 2nd round picks instead, one of them in 2025.

Because New Orleans wasn't willing to give up a top 10 pick in that trade.

 

[BonesJones]

in other words, you are accusing Cronin of incompetence because you are assuming he assumed there was no need to mitigate his risk by asking for the Laker's pick. But you don't know any of that to be true

let me suggest an alternative possibility: Cronin asked for the better of the Pels' or Lakers' 2022 picks, New Orleans responded by giving him the choice of either the Laker 2022 (if it was 5-10) or the Milwaukee 2025 (top-4 protected), but not both, and he made a bet that there was a better chance the Milwaukee pick would convey. I ask, is that a reasonable possibility? Is that scenario more reasonable than the assumption than Cronin is an incompetent idiot?

and if those were the conditions New Orleans set, and the bet Cronin made on Feb. 8 when the Lakers were only a half game out of 8th seed, and AD had returned to the lineup about 10 days earlier, and the Lakers were 14th in the lottery standings, and their pick wouldn't convey unless they dropped all the way into the top-10, and the Pels were almost certainly insisting on top-4 protections for either 1st...well then would betting on the Buck's pick instead of he Laker pick really been that bad of a bet?

My "assumption" is based on reporting.

He's a shit negotiator if he was put between choosing those two things. He was already getting a lotto pick as value. He was the one selling the asset. So if he ended up getting strong-armed into a game of chance in the scenario where BOTH options would be better for New Orleans than the original trade, then he's truly not cut out for this.

 

[blazerkor]

because of the pick not conveying?

Yeah man but like you said it's not really worth rehashing. It's done and now Joe can go to work with hopefully a lot of respect from his competitors because of the removal of interim and without "bad contracts" hanging over his head. Let's see what the guy can do.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

LOL...geeeeezuzzz

"Cronin should have got more for CJ!"....."CJ isn't good enough to harm the tank"

thoughts brought to the world from the same brains

Hoopsjock was very clear on that point. CJ could just as likely come down with an ailment.
I expect better. I also would have hated seeing that but it's the truth. As you already know I despise tanking but facts are facts.

Then hoopsjock even took it further and dove in with a very rational take on what options could have happened and they were not contingent on what the Pelicans demands could have been. Essentially keeping CJ simply keeps the asset and not only could they still have tanked but that asset might even be better going forward at this point. losing that pick the way the Blazers did was a bad look. this hill you are standing on seems odd. IMO hoopsjock is correct on this.

 

[tykendo]

I think a lot of Blazers fans thought CJ would excel on another team. I said as much in the past. I think what we didn't see, was Nance, somehow getting healthy and playing wayyyy better than he did as a Blazer. Add in Dooby Eyes playing more consistent late in the season, and the emergence of Herb Jones( who had been inconsistent as well) and Jose Alvarado and you get a perfect storm. Imagine if Morey-on had taken CJ, and the Blazers got the malingering Simmons in return. I don't care if he really does have a back injury. Dude's not made of the right stuff. Philly might actually still be playing, instead of being bogged down with losing , again, and having to sign the Chubby Chia to a max deal.

 

[wizenheimer]

Hoopsjock was very clear on that point. CJ could just as likely come down with an ailment.
I expect better. I also would have hated seeing that but it's the truth. As you already know I despise tanking but facts are facts.

Then hoopsjock even took it further and dove in with a very rational take on what options could have happened and they were not contingent on what the Pelicans demands could have been. Essentially keeping CJ simply keeps the asset and not only could they still have tanked but that asset might even be better going forward at this point. losing that pick the way the Blazers did was a bad look. this hill you are standing on seems odd. IMO hoopsjock is correct on this.

it's become a monotonous argument, mainly because you guys believe CJ and Powell were much better assets with better value than I, and many others do...and as it turns out, what the 'market' said. Agree to disagree on that

but I will say, again, I think the idea that the Blazers could continue with their February roster and then find better trades around the draft and in summer is make-believe; it's nonsense. Blazers would have had 130M in salaries....135M if they had a late lotto pick. 14M below the tax line and they would have still had to re-sign Simons and Nurkic. If they combine to make 40M Portland would have been 25M over the tax line...and they wold have still needed 2 more players to hit the minimum roster level.

They'd have potentially been facing a 65M luxury tax bill for a team that would probably be around .500 and a play-in team. All you guys talking about how Cronin didn't use leverage at the trade deadline need to explain how the situation this summer would have given him leverage in trying to dump CJ & Powell. Other teams would have known that the Blazers absolutely had to move those players...no alternative (the Vulcans are no secret around the league). Not only that, with Portland in that kind of bind, Simons, and possibly Nurkic might get much bigger offer sheets because teams would bet the Blazers could not afford to match.

and finally, you guys seem to be assuming that it was 100% Cronin's call if the traded guys were kept past the deadline. I'm assuming a lot of the trade-them-now momentum in February came from Seattle

 

[hoopsjock]

and you know he didn't ask for another pick but the Pels refused?

You've asked that question in this thread and I've answered it multiple times, like Bones says it's like you're doing it on purpose.

It literally does NOT matter if it was on the table or not. A good GM would've made SURE it WAS. He messed up. It's that simple.

 

[hoopsjock]

Can you give an example of that kind of protection in a trade that has happened in the past?
Why didn't Memphis get some protection on their 2022 first-round Lakers pick from New Orleans? An 11-20 pick in the 2022 draft could have been very valuable to them. They ended up with two 2nd round picks instead, one of them in 2025.

Memphis got the 10th pick in the previous draft in that trade.

 

[wizenheimer]

It literally does NOT matter if it was on the table or not. A good GM would've made SURE it WAS. He messed up. It's that simple.

I get it now...a "good" GM will force the other team to trade assets they refuse to trade

it's magic