Notice Joe Cronin New GM

[hoopsjock]

in other words, you are accusing Cronin of incompetence because you are assuming he assumed there was no need to mitigate his risk by asking for the Laker's pick. But you don't know any of that to be true

let me suggest an alternative possibility: Cronin asked for the better of the Pels' or Lakers' 2022 picks, New Orleans responded by giving him the choice of either the Laker 2022 (if it was 5-10) or the Milwaukee 2025 (top-4 protected), but not both, and he made a bet that there was a better chance the Milwaukee pick would convey. I ask, is that a reasonable possibility? Is that scenario more reasonable than the assumption than Cronin is an incompetent idiot?

This makes no sense, but if that is what Griffin says you explain once again that you're not accepting a trade that possibly ends up with them achieving their goal and the Blazers getting less value because of it. That's literally Cronin's job and a good GM would know when to call their bluff.

 

[hoopsjock]

it's become a monotonous argument, mainly because you guys believe CJ and Powell were much better assets with better value than I, and many others do...and as it turns out, what the 'market' said. Agree to disagree on that

but I will say, again, I think the idea that the Blazers could continue with their February roster and then find better trades around the draft and in summer is make-believe; it's nonsense. Blazers would have had 130M in salaries....135M if they had a late lotto pick. 14M below the tax line and they would have still had to re-sign Simons and Nurkic. If they combine to make 40M Portland would have been 25M over the tax line...and they wold have still needed 2 more players to hit the minimum roster level.

They'd have potentially been facing a 65M luxury tax bill for a team that would probably be around .500 and a play-in team. All you guys talking about how Cronin didn't use leverage at the trade deadline need to explain how the situation this summer would have given him leverage in trying to dump CJ & Powell. Other teams would have known that the Blazers absolutely had to move those players...no alternative (the Vulcans are no secret around the league). Not only that, with Portland in that kind of bind, Simons, and possibly Nurkic might get much bigger offer sheets because teams would bet the Blazers could not afford to match.

and finally, you guys seem to be assuming that it was 100% Cronin's call if the traded guys were kept past the deadline. I'm assuming a lot of the trade-them-now momentum in February came from Seattle

I was 100% on board with trading Norm, CJ, and RoCo. My only point about keeping them is that it wouldn't have changed our ability to tank, therefore the argument that our draft positioning was better because we traded those guys isn't accurate IMO.

I was told back in December around the time Dame got his first cortizone shot and the Olshey firing that the team approached Dame about the possibilities of going young and building around Dame, Ant, and Nas. Dame said he would be on board with that process, but only if things started to go south and they didn't turn things around this season. Well, things went south.

Personally, I loved it. However it takes assets to pull off and now it seems like a bunch of stuff have to break Portland's way.

Lawrence Frank of the Clippers said he didn't think he'd be able to acquire two players the caliber they got with what little assets they had available to trade. That's directly out of his mouth. David Griffin echoed similar comments about CJ. The report that Portland didn't value draft capital as much as they should matches everything Cronin has said about making trades for flexibility.

And again, the most likely scenario was the Blazers getting a lottery pick for CJ. That means his value was a lottery pick, no matter how many times you try to excuse that fact.

Also, how many games any team was back or ahead or whatever when talking about the 7-10 seeds is completely meaningless. With the Play-In games, anything can happen with those seeds.

 

[wizenheimer]

This makes no sense, but if that is what Griffin says you explain once again that you're not accepting a trade that possibly ends up with them achieving their goal and the Blazers getting less value because of it. That's literally Cronin's job and a good GM would know when to call their bluff.

teams always make trades with the intention of "achieving their goal". If a team is on the edge of the lottery, and has a pick say a pick projected in the 12-16 range, and trades that pick (top-10 protected) for a player who helps the team go on a major winning streak to close the season. And the result is them sending out a 25th pick instead of a 12th, the other team gets less value because the team trading the pick achieved their goal with the trade....the goal being getting better that season. Trades like that happen all the time

 

[hoopsjock]

I get it now...a "good" GM will force the other team to trade assets they refuse to trade

it's magic

 

[riverman]

I think it's way early to judge what Joe is building here so far and if people think it doesn't make sense, that's because they don't know what was negotiated...didn't read the room, understand the parameters and accept that the pick might not convey.that things happen behind closed doors....I think Joe knew all of this and if he'd played so called "hardball" and pulled out of the CJ, Norm, Roco trades waiting for more value several things could have happened...CJ could have stayed in Portland or worse...had an achilles tear and gotten injured and lost value yet still ate up a big chunk of cap space....Roco could have walked for nothing and the big elephant in the room is that Chauncey and Joe wanted Josh Hart and Justice Winslow .....hell Hart had a 44 pt game for us ....CJ didn't do that in the playoffs....Joe took a swing and unfortunately the pick didn't convey but we still got an asset down the road for it . Joe hasn't even entered the free agency season or draft yet...he also has to repair relationships with GMs around the league and build some partners to work with...Neil didn't do that much. There are assets in good relationships with GMs.....Joe may not end up being a good GM but at this point it's way to early to turn him into the new Stotts dartboard....my 2 cents. It's all speculation at this point and I don't buy that talking heads would be better at it than a guy who's put in almost 2 decades in the league and is Chad Buchanon's best friend. Patience is where I'm at...I lost complete interest in the team when they were obviously tanking...don't like tanking. As to what Joe does....I'll know around Christmas what we've got going So far I like Hart and Winslow but I'd trade Nas (Elliot Williams fears)

 

[hoopsjock]

teams always make trades with the intention of "achieving their goal". If a team is on the edge of the lottery, and has a pick say a pick projected in the 12-16 range, and trades that pick (top-10 protected) for a player who helps the team go on a major winning streak to close the season. And the result is them sending out a 25th pick instead of a 12th, the other team gets less value because the team trading the pick achieved their goal with the trade....the goal being getting better that season. Trades like that happen all the time

If you trade a top-10 protected pick, your range is 11-30 and you're accepting the value of that. If a team has multiple picks, it's often the more favorable or least favorable of the two, depending on what's agreed upon.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

it's become a monotonous argument, mainly because you guys believe CJ and Powell were much better assets with better value than I, and many others do...and as it turns out, what the 'market' said. Agree to disagree on that

but I will say, again, I think the idea that the Blazers could continue with their February roster and then find better trades around the draft and in summer is make-believe; it's nonsense. Blazers would have had 130M in salaries....135M if they had a late lotto pick. 14M below the tax line and they would have still had to re-sign Simons and Nurkic. If they combine to make 40M Portland would have been 25M over the tax line...and they wold have still needed 2 more players to hit the minimum roster level.

They'd have potentially been facing a 65M luxury tax bill for a team that would probably be around .500 and a play-in team. All you guys talking about how Cronin didn't use leverage at the trade deadline need to explain how the situation this summer would have given him leverage in trying to dump CJ & Powell. Other teams would have known that the Blazers absolutely had to move those players...no alternative (the Vulcans are no secret around the league). Not only that, with Portland in that kind of bind, Simons, and possibly Nurkic might get much bigger offer sheets because teams would bet the Blazers could not afford to match.

and finally, you guys seem to be assuming that it was 100% Cronin's call if the traded guys were kept past the deadline. I'm assuming a lot of the trade-them-now momentum in February came from Seattle

I can agree with that also.
Not sure what exact value CJ had as an asset?
But still losing that pick was a bad look.

 

[Hoopguru]

I think it's way early to judge what Joe is building here so far and if people think it doesn't make sense, that's because they don't know what was negotiated...didn't read the room, understand the parameters and accept that the pick might not convey.that things happen behind closed doors....I think Joe knew all of this and if he'd played so called "hardball" and pulled out of the CJ, Norm, Roco trades waiting for more value several things could have happened...CJ could have stayed in Portland or worse...had an achilles tear and gotten injured and lost value yet still ate up a big chunk of cap space....Roco could have walked for nothing and the big elephant in the room is that Chauncey and Joe wanted Josh Hart and Justice Winslow .....hell Hart had a 44 pt game for us ....CJ didn't do that in the playoffs....Joe took a swing and unfortunately the pick didn't convey but we still got an asset down the road for it . Joe hasn't even entered the free agency season or draft yet...he also has to repair relationships with GMs around the league and build some partners to work with...Neil didn't do that much. There are assets in good relationships with GMs.....Joe may not end up being a good GM but at this point it's way to early to turn him into the new Stotts dartboard....my 2 cents. It's all speculation at this point and I don't buy that talking heads would be better at it than a guy who's put in almost 2 decades in the league and is Chad Buchanon's best friend. Patience is where I'm at...I lost complete interest in the team when they were obviously tanking...don't like tanking. As to what Joe does....I'll know around Christmas what we've got going So far I like Hart and Winslow but I'd trade Nas (Elliot Williams fears)

good to see you around River!

 

[wizenheimer]

I can agree with that also.
Not sure what exact value CJ had as an asset?
But still losing that pick was a bad look.

well, if you believe Jake Fisher about what Atlanta and Dallas offered for CJ, then arguably the Blazers traded CJ for his approximate market value. If the Pels pick had conveyed Portland would have got better than market value

it was definitely a blow to the rebuild when the pick didn't convey, and it certainly stirred up an anti-Cronin crowd. At the same time, an 11th pick does have limited value. Last time Portland had an 11th pick they selected Meyers Leonard

biggest worry is that Blazers will use a 6th pick for the value they could have landed with an 11th pick

 

[Hoopguru]

I still think they may package pick if it's 7 or higher. Especially if the Grant deal falls through if there ever was a deal?

 

[hoopsjock]

well, if you believe Jake Fisher about what Atlanta and Dallas offered for CJ, then arguably the Blazers traded CJ for his approximate market value. If the Pels pick had conveyed Portland would have got better than market value

it was definitely a blow to the rebuild when the pick didn't convey, and it certainly stirred up an anti-Cronin crowd. At the same time, an 11th pick does have limited value. Last time Portland had an 11th pick they selected Meyers Leonard

biggest worry is that Blazers will use a 6th pick for the value they could have landed with an 11th pick

So you believe Jake Fischer on that, but not all the other stuff that goes against your argument?

He said as much as half the league was interested in Norm, including multiple teams willing to give up a 1st round pick. That included New Orleans who could've absorbed his salary in the TPE they had and still been well under the tax line. But, Norm didn't want to go to New Orleans. They were actually willing to take both Norm and CJ at one point. Cleveland offered a similar package they gave up for LeVert for Norm as well, but again Norm didn't want to go there.

This goes back to Cronin admitting they left value on the table by focusing on getting those players to a destination they wanted to go to. So no, you can't just say "CJ only had these other two offers" when CJ said he knew he was going to New Orleans two weeks before the trade and the trade was made 3 days before the deadline.

Cronin's own words, which I'm sure you'll continue to ignore.

 

[blazerfan11]

Memphis got the 10th pick in the previous draft in that trade.

That was as a swapping of draft picks of the two teams involved in the trade. A third teams draft pick wasn't involved.
I was looking for an example where a third teams' draft pick (Lakers) was option B with the sending teams' first-round draft pick from the same draft being option A.
And why didn't Memphis get something better than two 2nd-round picks if the 2022 Lakers' 1st round pick didn't convey?
There could end up being a huge talent discrepancy between what they expected to get and what they ended up getting.

 

[Wade Garrett]

I think it's way early to judge what Joe is building here so far and if people think it doesn't make sense, that's because they don't know what was negotiated...didn't read the room, understand the parameters and accept that the pick might not convey.that things happen behind closed doors....I think Joe knew all of this and if he'd played so called "hardball" and pulled out of the CJ, Norm, Roco trades waiting for more value several things could have happened...CJ could have stayed in Portland or worse...had an achilles tear and gotten injured and lost value yet still ate up a big chunk of cap space....Roco could have walked for nothing and the big elephant in the room is that Chauncey and Joe wanted Josh Hart and Justice Winslow .....hell Hart had a 44 pt game for us ....CJ didn't do that in the playoffs....Joe took a swing and unfortunately the pick didn't convey but we still got an asset down the road for it . Joe hasn't even entered the free agency season or draft yet...he also has to repair relationships with GMs around the league and build some partners to work with...Neil didn't do that much. There are assets in good relationships with GMs.....Joe may not end up being a good GM but at this point it's way to early to turn him into the new Stotts dartboard....my 2 cents. It's all speculation at this point and I don't buy that talking heads would be better at it than a guy who's put in almost 2 decades in the league and is Chad Buchanon's best friend. Patience is where I'm at...I lost complete interest in the team when they were obviously tanking...don't like tanking. As to what Joe does....I'll know around Christmas what we've got going So far I like Hart and Winslow but I'd trade Nas (Elliot Williams fears)

110%!!!!!

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

For all the Olshey bashing, many people here usually gave him way too much leeway when he would come up short on a trade. The excuse was always a, "Neil did them a solid for payback down the line." line of reasoning. Yet that payback never ever showed up down the line. The bottom line is that Neil was getting taken to the cleaners, and neither Neil or the guys fleecing him wanted to admit it. At least Cronin appears to be being honest and admitting he took less up front to open up opportunities in the off season. We might not like it, but at least it appears to be the truth. Better that than Neil pissing down our legs and telling us it's raining........

 

[Hoopguru]

It's going to take 2-3 years at least to shape the team for Dame time.

 

[wizenheimer]

So you believe Jake Fischer on that, but not all the other stuff that goes against your argument?

what did I say there?...."if you believe"

he gave fairly specific examples of other teams making offers for CJ, so at least it's an actual gauge....again, if you believe him. He was kind of vague (from what I heard) on teams wanting Powell. I remember once he said Cleveland was interested in Powell, but that they really wanted to get bigger in the back court. And they ended up with Caris LeVert, who is definitely a lot bigger than Powell. I never heard of him saying that several team were willing to send a 1st round pick for Powell. I'd need a link for that one to accept it. And we don't know....if it's true...what else was part of the trade. Maybe it was something like Dallas wanting to trade Bertans and a 2027 protected 1st for Powell. That would have been a shittier trade than the one to the Clippers

the stuff about trading players to preferred destinations doesn't make me happy, and I've said that before. But I also see that there might be some good-will advantage to a franchise looking out for their players in trades. I'd think players and agents would notice. If it will ever pay-off I don't know

this discussion has run it's course. I won't change your mind and you won't change mind. Talking in circles.

 

[wizenheimer]

For all the Olshey bashing, many people here usually gave him way too much leeway when he would come up short on a trade. The excuse was always a, "Neil did them a solid for payback down the line." line of reasoning. Yet that payback never ever showed up down the line. The bottom line is that Neil was getting taken to the cleaners, and neither Neil or the guys fleecing him wanted to admit it. At least Cronin appears to be being honest and admitting he took less up front to open up opportunities in the off season. We might not like it, but at least it appears to be the truth. Better that than Neil pissing down our legs and telling us it's raining........

yep...I haven't mentioned it (till now) but it sure hasn't escaped my notice that a couple of the guys bashing Cronin so incessantly were two of the biggest Olshey fans

 

[TBpup]

yep...I haven't mentioned it (till now) but it sure hasn't escaped my notice that a couple of the guys bashing Cronin so incessantly were two of the biggest Olshey fans

Olshey fans? That is like people who are polled who think the current president is doing a good/great job.

 

[BonesJones]

yep...I haven't mentioned it (till now) but it sure hasn't escaped my notice that a couple of the guys bashing Cronin so incessantly were two of the biggest Olshey fans

Who was an Olshey fan?

 

[riverman]

Who was an Olshey fan?

Jody Allen

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Who was an Olshey fan?

I seriously do not recall many people who were big Olshey fans?
I remember a few giving him credit when he did a few things right. He didn’t do everything poorly.
But in the end most we’re happy to see him go.

 

[BonesJones]

I seriously do not recall many people who were big Olshey fans?
I remember a few giving him credit when he did a few things right. He didn’t do everything poorly.
But in the end most we’re happy to see him go.

I love how not bashing Olshey for everything made me (?) an Olshey fan when I've lit into him plenty of times. But then when Cronin gets here bashing him is too much, as if everyone wasn't rooting for the guy to succeed in the first place.

 

[MickZagger]

I have no faith in Cronin but let’s see how this goes…

 

[Mediocre Man]

Not a ton of value for any of the players we traded

CJ to Philly for Simmons would have cost the Blazers an additional 3 firsts

A 1st was not on the table for Norm

BECAUSE of Neil every team in the league knew we were fucked because Jody wasn’t going to pay tax

Also, teams knew Dame was out

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Not a ton of value for any of the players we traded

CJ to Philly for Simmons would have cost the Blazers an additional 3 firsts

A 1st was not on the table for Norm

BECAUSE of Neil every team in the league knew we were fucked because Jody wasn’t going to pay tax

Also, teams knew Dame was out

Or we can play make-believe and ignore the fact that there was a week left until trade deadline. He was a rookie who got taken advantage of. Plain and simple.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Or we can play make-believe and ignore the fact that there was a week left until trade deadline. He was a rookie who got taken advantage of. Plain and simple.

Not the case, but you do you

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Not the case, but you do you

He didn't start making the trades with more than a week out? Huh?

 

[Phatguysrule]

He didn't start making the trades with more than a week out? Huh?

And do you know why he did that?

 

[riverman]

Just because the store is open till midnight doesn't mean you're not done shopping at 10am and out of there......Joe made quick work of his moves and I'd speculate he had all his contingencies laid out long before he made the deals...then he did the Ingles deal and signed G leaguers and cheap filler guys to tank....the tank was done really well losing 20 of 23 games going out....not sure what you wanted Joe to wait another week for as he knew any other deals on the table would require taking on more salary and talent which wasn't part of the plan when tanking.

 

[Tince]

And do you know why he did that?

The amount of people who think deals only get better as deadlines approach, surprises me. Especially given the amount of times this franchise has had "valuable" expiring deals, didn't love the offers weeks before the deadline, only to find out there was no offer at the deadline, and the expiring deal became worthless.