Minnesota wants Batum @ 11.25M a year

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Why is this so hard to understand? Are we really being that unclear? Forget Hibbert for a minute. If the Blazers match Batum's offer from Minnesota, are they still only counting his QO cap hold? If Minnesota offers him 12 million per year, and we decide to match the offer within the 3 day time limit, will we lose the 12 million in cap space?

You have three days to match an offer on a RFA. Three days. I'm assuming those three days start from the minute they are received by the league office. If the league receives Batum's offer before Hibberts, that should mean that we have less time to match Batum's deal than Indy has to match Hibberts. They can just wait it out and if we decide to match Batum's offer, we no longer have the cap space to give Hibbert a max contract.

How is that so confusing?

Because it's a stupid ass way to run a FA period, and it fucks over teams and players based on who has the faster fax machine or internet connection.

You're the one claiming this is the case, and it actually would have serious implications if . Please show me where a gap of literally one second matters on this process. I'd love to see it. All I remember of the Millsap match by Utah was that they had under midnight 7 days after that signing, and the deadline was midnight EDT, not whenever the league says they received a piece of paper.

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Because it's impossible to really know who signed their contract first, and it makes no sense to have an entire 3-day period wasted for a player (and team) when that contract can become invalid at literally the last second. That would be a fairly shitty way to run a league, and since the only people I've heard it from are a few on this board, I'm going to assume that the league has a better process in place than a Chinese Fire Drill at 12am EDT July 11th.

Hell, if seconds do matter, then the most important person in the organization isn't the GM, coach, or owner, but rather who can operate a fax machine the best, and better than 29 other teams.

It doesn't matter who signed first. It matters who submits the offer to the league first, and who is received by the league first. Nobody said it was fair.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Then they're screwed. The clock starts as soon as the league receives the signed contract from the team that's submitting it. 72 hours to match. You can either match within those 72 hours or you can pass, but if one offer is submitted before another, I would guess you have less time to match than the other team. I highly doubt the league is looking at a day as a whole period of time and not hours or even minutes to determine first come, first serve.

You're making some fairly bold claims here. Please show me where this is the case. In the past, RFAs had to be matched by midnight EDT on the 7th day, regardless of what time it was signed. If something in the new CBA changed that, please show me.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Why not just have everything signed and dated for July 10, 2012 and submitted the offer to the NBA days in advanced.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

It doesn't matter who signed first. It matters who submits the offer to the league first, and who is received by the league first. Nobody said it was fair.

I literally don't believe you on this one. Where are you getting your information? Again, so if a fax machine gets jammed, or if somebody at the league office has the phone off the hook for a minute, then a team's entire FA period, and a player's, starts from Square One?

Uh uh. I just don't believe it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q43

As with any contract offer, a team must have enough room -- either cap room or room provided by an exception -- for the offer sheet. They must also maintain sufficient room while the offer sheet is outstanding -- e.g., they can't sign a restricted free agent to an offer sheet, and then use up all their cap room by signing another free agent during the three-day waiting period.

Likewise, the player's prior team cannot match an offer sheet that is greater than their room. They must have enough room -- again, either cap room or a satisfactory exception -- at the time they are given notice that the player has signed an offer sheet, and at all times until matching. They cannot make moves to create sufficient room after receiving an offer sheet.

(The exception in question here is bird rights, I'm pretty sure).

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Why not just have everything signed and dated for July 10, 2012 and submitted the offer to the NBA days in advanced.

Nate's point will be that doesn't matter, and what matters is where in the queue a signed contract is spit out in the league office.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

I literally don't believe you on this one. Where are you getting your information? Again, so if a fax machine gets jammed, or if somebody at the league office has the phone off the hook for a minute, then a team's entire FA period, and a player's, starts from Square One?

Uh uh. I just don't believe it.

With muti-millions at stake. Having a courier at the door when the NBA office opens is the safest way (along with faxing and telephone call).

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Because it's a stupid ass way to run a FA period, and it fucks over teams and players based on who has the faster fax machine or internet connection.

You're the one claiming this is the case, and it actually would have serious implications if . Please show me where a gap of literally one second matters on this process. I'd love to see it. All I remember of the Millsap match by Utah was that they had under midnight 7 days after that signing, and the deadline was midnight EDT, not whenever the league says they received a piece of paper.

It's not my rule. I'm telling you how I understand the rules. If I'm wrong that's great and I hope I am, but you keep saying it has been debunked and I'm telling you that what I thought was debunked was the idea that Batum's offer from Minnesota would automatically come on our cap until we either match or pass. I haven't seen anything that debunks my understanding of the rules.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Personally, if Batum signs an offer sheet at the very first moment, to me it says he does not want to be here.

He knows what's at stake for the team. I mean, I'd hate to not match Batum, then have Indy match Hibbert. But if Nic's trying to stick it to us, then I'd think he simply doesn't want to be here.

And not that I expect any favors from KP.... but perhaps we could at least send Indy something to get them to make their decision more quickly, even if only an hour in advance of the deadline (money, a draft pick, Claver, etc.).

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

With muti-millions at stake. Having a courier at the door when the NBA office opens is the safest way (along with faxing and telephone call).

Hire a courier with MMA skills, because it still matters when the league gets it, and there may be couriers from other teams there trying to hand off their precious cargo to whoever is there at midnight. Maybe send Chael Sonnen in case things get a bit rough as people are trying to enter the front door.

Better still, hire a hacker to shut down every other team's network (phone and internet) at 12am on July 11th, just to be safe.

MMA couriers and hackers may be extreme, but not when seconds matter!

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Nate's point will be that doesn't matter, and what matters is where in the queue a signed contract is spit out in the league office.

What sounds more realistic to you:

1. Contracts are submitted to the league for approval, and a three day timer is started as soon as they are received for a team to match that offer. If an offer is matched, the cap space is used and the player is retained by their team.

2. Contracts are submitted to the league for approval, and are given a date where they can match any time within the 24 hours of that day. If it's submitted on Monday, you've got until Thursday, because obviously you need three full days to match and not half of a day. That wouldn't be fair.

Seriously, what sounds more realistic, that someone is given three days from the exact time they submit the order, or three full business days regardless of what time it's submitted. And if someone matches and eats up all your cap space, that doesn't matter because you had the cap space when you submitted the order and even though you matched BEFORE that deal was consummated, you should still get the cap space, right? Because that's fair.

 

[RR7]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Hire a courier with MMA skills, because it still matters when the league gets it, and there may be couriers from other teams there trying to hand off their precious cargo to whoever is there at midnight.

Better still, hire a hacker to shut down every other team's network (phone and internet) at 12am on July 11th, just to be safe.

MMA couriers and hackers may be extreme, but not when seconds matter!

we're saying we are unsure, but believe it is this way, you think otherwise, that's fine. Why the obnoxiousness, though, instead of just discussing the topic? none of us 100% know for sure.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

It's not my rule. I'm telling you how I understand the rules. If I'm wrong that's great and I hope I am, but you keep saying it has been debunked and I'm telling you that what I thought was debunked was the idea that Batum's offer from Minnesota would automatically come on our cap until we either match or pass. I haven't seen anything that debunks my understanding of the rules.

You mean other than common sense, right?

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

I have no idea what we offered Batum, or what he wanted, but had we signed him for 10 million per season earlier this year, we would still have enough under the cap to sign Hibbert if we stretched Williams or renounced Freeland and or Claver

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

You mean other than common sense, right?

lol... Whatever, I'm not getting sucked into another one of your dramatic moments.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

we're saying we are unsure, but believe it is this way, you think otherwise, that's fine. Why the obnoxiousness, though, instead of just discussing the topic? none of us 100% know for sure.

Hey, if seconds matter, wouldn't it be prudent to do everything under the sun to ensure that the Hibbert signing occurs before Batum's? I'm not being obnoxious, I'm just wondering how logistically such an absurd way to run a FA period could be the reality.

Seriously, why not hire someone to knock out the Timberwolves communication network? Or should the Blazers just leave it to chance, and get left with their dick in their hand because Minnesota got their offer in a second before Portland, meaning all of Portland's FA period has been for nothing (and Hibbert's as well).

 

[RR7]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

I have no idea what we offered Batum, or what he wanted, but had we signed him for 10 million per season earlier this year, we would still have enough under the cap to sign Hibbert if we stretched Williams or renounced Freeland and or Claver

at the time, though, we still could have potentially been stuck with Crawford or Wallace on our salary. likely wasn't worth the risk.

 

[RR7]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Hey, if seconds matter, wouldn't it be prudent to do everything under the sun to ensure that the Hibbert signing occurs before Batum's? I'm not being obnoxious, I'm just wondering how logistically such an absurd way to run a FA period could be the reality.

Seriously, why not hire someone to knock out the Timberwolves communication network? Or should the Blazers just leave it to chance, and get left with their dick in their hand because Minnesota got their offer in a second before Portland, meaning all of Portland's FA period has been for nothing (and Hibbert's as well).

yeah, not being obnoxious. And you wonder why most of the pissing matches on here are with you. whatever. None of us know 100% for sure. Maybe we can get confirmation from someone who does.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

lol... Whatever, I'm not getting sucked into another one of your dramatic moments.

I'm being serious. Does what you describe seem at all logical to you? Really? A jammed fax machine is all it takes for one team to be completely screwed, as well as that team's FA target. I don't buy it.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

yeah, not being obnoxious. And you wonder why most of the pissing matches on here are with you. whatever. None of us know 100% for sure. Maybe we can get confirmation from someone who does.

Really though. You're fine with leaving an entire FA period to chance, if seconds do matter? You and Nate are making a very bold claim, and it's a claim that could completely screw over the Blazers, yet I've seen no proof that the claim you're making is a fact.

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Hey, if seconds matter, wouldn't it be prudent to do everything under the sun to ensure that the Hibbert signing occurs before Batum's? I'm not being obnoxious, I'm just wondering how logistically such an absurd way to run a FA period could be the reality.

Seriously, why not hire someone to knock out the Timberwolves communication network? Or should the Blazers just leave it to chance, and get left with their dick in their hand because Minnesota got their offer in a second before Portland, meaning all of Portland's FA period has been for nothing (and Hibbert's as well).

You keep saying it's absurd, but I would love to hear how you think it should go down. I think it's a first-come-first-serve basis. How often does this happen? One team trying to steal the player of another team who is trying to steal the player of another team. I've never seen it before. Usually it's pretty cut and dry. The Blazers offer a contract to Wes Matthews, who is an RFA, and the Jazz have three days to match. When have you ever seen a situation where a team has the cap space to make an offer, but also has an RFA that they might lose if they don't match?

First-come-first-serve seems pretty logical and fair to me.

 

[RR7]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Me personally? what the fuck does that matter or have anything to do with anything? I admit I do not know for certain how it works, but stated what I THOUGHT was the way it worked. I could be wrong. You state me and Nate lack common sense, basically, for believing that, when you have nothing other than your own personal opinion to go off of. Again, no need to be a dick about it. Try to actually have a conversation, and maybe so many people wouldn't turn on you here.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

What sounds more realistic to you:

A jammed fax machine completely screwing over a team and a player does not sound realistic to me. We'll have to disagree on this one, because I'm not buying it, and under the old CBA, it was an 11:59pm EDT deadline to match after 7 days.

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Me personally? what the fuck does that matter or have anything to do with anything? I admit I do not know for certain how it works, but stated what I THOUGHT was the way it worked. I could be wrong. You state me and Nate lack common sense, basically, for believing that, when you have nothing other than your own personal opinion to go off of. Again, no need to be a dick about it. Try to actually have a conversation, and maybe so many people wouldn't turn on you here.

Yeah... it's not like we run the shit or came up with the idea. We are merely stating how we think the league does things.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

Me personally? what the fuck does that matter or have anything to do with anything? I admit I do not know for certain how it works, but stated what I THOUGHT was the way it worked. I could be wrong. You state me and Nate lack common sense, basically, for believing that, when you have nothing other than your own personal opinion to go off of. Again, no need to be a dick about it. Try to actually have a conversation, and maybe so many people wouldn't turn on you here.

I didn't say you lack common sense. I said that common sense says that the way you describe the FA signing process is a pretty shitty way to run a FA period. Whether it's true or not still doesn't mean that it makes sense, or that you lack common sense. If it is the way the NBA runs under the new CBA, then it defies common sense.

Looking at it from a business perspective, it makes no sense to me, and I don't believe it can possibly be true.

 

[Natebishop3]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

A jammed fax machine completely screwing over a team and a player does not sound realistic to me. We'll have to disagree on this one, because I'm not buying it, and under the old CBA, it was an 11:59pm EDT deadline to match after 7 days.

So how does that make things better? If both deals are submitted at 12:01 AM on the 11th, and both teams have until 11:59 pm on the 13th, what do we do? Sit and hope that Indy declines or matches before we decline or match Batum? Is it a game of chicken?

 

[e_blazer]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

The Player's Association hasn't updated to the current CBA on their site, but here's what the old one said:

If, within seven (7) days from the date it receives an Offer Sheet, the ROFR Team gives to the Restricted Free Agent a “First Refusal Exercise Notice” substantially in the form of Exhibit H annexed hereto, then, subject to Section 5(h) below, such Restricted Free Agent and the ROFR Team shall be deemed to have entered into a Player Contract containing all the Principal Terms (but not any terms other than the Principal Terms) included in the Uniform Player Contract attached to the Offer Sheet (except that if the Contract contains an Exhibit 6, such Exhibit 6 shall be deemed deleted). Such Contract may not thereafter be amended in any manner for a period of one (1) year.

I'm going to assume that the new language is similar except for the number of days allowed. Note that it says "from the date" the offer is received. It doesn't say from the "time" it was received. My bet is that teams have until the end of the 3rd day's date to make their move so that all offers received on the same date are operating under the same clock.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

So how does that make things better? If both deals are submitted at 12:01 AM on the 11th, and both teams have until 11:59 pm on the 13th, what do we do? Sit and hope that Indy declines or matches before we decline or match Batum? Is it a game of chicken?

I don't know the answer to that question, but I've heard nothing out of the Blazer camp stating that the timing of having Batum sign matters much to their pursuit of Hibbert.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Minnesota wants Batum @ ~12M a year

The Player's Association hasn't updated to the current CBA on their site, but here's what the old one said:



I'm going to assume that the new language is similar except for the number of days allowed. Note that it says "from the date" the offer is received. It doesn't say from the "time" it was received. My bet is that teams have until the end of the 3rd day's date to make their move so that all offers received on the same date are operating under the same clock.

Yep, that's what I thought. The "day" of the offer, not the "time" of the offer.

Let's put this one to bed.

Repped.