Norm Powell Contract

[Rastapopoulos]

Trade CJ first. Even if Powell doesn't sign, we've likely acquired a nice player.

Just not any "nice player" that anyone on this board can present a remotely plausible case for.

 

[Hoopguru]

I haven't been "pushing" for it, I've been pointing out that it's the only thing that makes sense. And so far, nobody's bothered trying to rebut those arguments. (Saying "ew" is not a rebuttal.)

To recap the main points:
1. Dame is at his very peak, both of talent and value. It's downhill from here.
2. CJ is probably at the nadir of his value. His value would improve if he played without Dame
3. If we trade CJ to "make the Blazers better in Dame's window" then we'll almost certainly have to package him with picks.
4. Picks are more valuable to a small-market team that can't sign FAs than to other teams (like the Clippers) that have unloaded them
5. Trying to build a better team around Dame by trading CJ will fail and hamstring us for years.

To be clear, I know no Portland GM has the cajones to trade Dame. But Olshey is also no doubt being made painfully aware of how little he can get for CJ and will not trade CJ either. So. Get ready to run it back with diminishing returns.

Just curious, whatb are the names of some players that you think could be acquired for Dame? Unless you are talking AD, Greek F, Doncic, Tatum and some you shouldn't even give it a consideration. Doncic is the only one I would consider becasue of his age.

 

[julius]

I haven't been "pushing" for it, I've been pointing out that it's the only thing that makes sense. And so far, nobody's bothered trying to rebut those arguments. (Saying "ew" is not a rebuttal.)

To recap the main points:
1. Dame is at his very peak, both of talent and value. It's downhill from here.

The Warriors should trade Steph, he's at his very peak. It's downhill from here.

2. CJ is probably at the nadir of his value. His value would improve if he played without Dame

We don't know that. And CJ is a a whole (checks notes) 14 months younger than Dame.

3. If we trade CJ to "make the Blazers better in Dame's window" then we'll almost certainly have to package him with picks.

Not really sure that's the case. Westbrook and Harden were both traded by Houston after last season.

Harden was traded with 2 2nd round picks and the right to swap picks.

Westbrook was traded with nothing.

OKC traded Westbrook with zero picks.

Now I'm not saying that CJ in on par with those players, but usually it's the incoming trade parts that have the picks tacked on.

As much as we crack on CJ, he's still one of the better players in the league.

4. Picks are more valuable to a small-market team that can't sign FAs than to other teams (like the Clippers) that have unloaded them

It's highly likely that IF they trade CJ, it'll be for some anchor contract like Kevin Love + picks. Maybe this years (but I really really doubt that), or the right to swap picks for a few years.

5. Trying to build a better team around Dame by trading CJ will fail and hamstring us for years.

And trading Dame and building around CJ will cripple the franchise. Players like CJ are significantly easier to trade for (hell, it took Hood and Trent Jr to get Powell).

To be clear, I know no Portland GM has the cajones to trade Dame. But Olshey is also no doubt being made painfully aware of how little he can get for CJ and will not trade CJ either. So. Get ready to run it back with diminishing returns.

The returns for CJ would be better than the returns (and after effect) of trading Dame. Look at Houston after they traded Harden. That's Portlands future if they trade Dame instead of CJ, plus it'd be magnified by the fact that this is Portland and not Houston (read: Houston is a more desirable city/franchise for players to want to play for).

IF Dame wants out, trade him. But if he wants to stay, you don't trade him.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The Warriors should trade Steph, he's at his very peak. It's downhill from here.

Not sure what your point is. They probably should, but they think they can contend when Klay comes back. (I have my doubts.) They might want to do something splashy, because they want to distract from the fact they took Wiseman over Ball.

We don't know that. And CJ is a a whole (checks notes) 14 months younger than Dame.

So you're saying CJ could get worse? Possible. I bet he bounces back - he's got a lot of pride and he always has. But yes, the clock is ticking. If he's still with us in 14 months I'll push to trade him, too!

Not really sure that's the case. Westbrook and Harden were both traded by Houston after last season.

Harden was traded with 2 2nd round picks and the right to swap picks.

??? Are you saying Harden = CJ???

Westbrook was traded with nothing.

FOR AN EVEN WORSE PLAYER WITH AN EVEN WORSE CONTRACT!!!

Now I'm not saying that CJ in on par with those players, but usually it's the incoming trade parts that have the picks tacked on.

Your argument is completely specious. The teams that traded the players you're comparing CJ to
(a) WERE REBUILDING - if we're doing that, we trade Dame.
(b) WERE TRADING THE BEST PLAYER IN THE TRADE - I thought the point was to trade CJ to IMPROVE.

As much as we crack on CJ, he's still one of the better players in the league.

Then let's keep him! Oh, that's right, he doesn't "fit". Well, we've been talking about trading him SINCE HE WAS DRAFTED and it hasn't happened, mainly because nobody could come up with a plausible one. Well, there was one, but that window passed.

I love this game people on this board play: "CJ'S A PILE OF SHIT! WE'VE GOT TO TRADE HIM! Hey, maybe we can get Ben Simmons or Paskal Siakam for him, because let's remember, "as much as we crack on CJ, he's still one of the better players in the league"

It's highly likely that IF they trade CJ, it'll be for some anchor contract like Kevin Love + picks. Maybe this years (but I really really doubt that), or the right to swap picks for a few years.

Um, if it's a choice between that trade and not trading CJ, then I think not trading CJ is ABSOLUTELY the best option.

And trading Dame and building around CJ will cripple the franchise.

"Cripple?" I guess Sam Hinkie really "crippled" the 76ers, huh.

IF Dame wants out, trade him. But if he wants to stay, you don't trade him.

Ironically (or something like that), it would make Olshey's life a lot easier if Dame demanded a trade. Then he could do the right thing and look like he was forced into it.

 

[James lamphear]

The Warriors should trade Steph, he's at his very peak. It's downhill from here.



We don't know that. And CJ is a a whole (checks notes) 14 months younger than Dame.



Not really sure that's the case. Westbrook and Harden were both traded by Houston after last season.

Harden was traded with 2 2nd round picks and the right to swap picks.

Westbrook was traded with nothing.

OKC traded Westbrook with zero picks.

Now I'm not saying that CJ in on par with those players, but usually it's the incoming trade parts that have the picks tacked on.

As much as we crack on CJ, he's still one of the better players in the league.



It's highly likely that IF they trade CJ, it'll be for some anchor contract like Kevin Love + picks. Maybe this years (but I really really doubt that), or the right to swap picks for a few years.



And trading Dame and building around CJ will cripple the franchise. Players like CJ are significantly easier to trade for (hell, it took Hood and Trent Jr to get Powell).



The returns for CJ would be better than the returns (and after effect) of trading Dame. Look at Houston after they traded Harden. That's Portlands future if they trade Dame instead of CJ, plus it'd be magnified by the fact that this is Portland and not Houston (read: Houston is a more desirable city/franchise for players to want to play for).

IF Dame wants out, trade him. But if he wants to stay, you don't trade him.

Remember Harden and Westbrook wanted out of Houston that right there hurt there trade value. I don't where CJ or Dame wants out of Portland makes a big difference when your trading someone in there stature.

 

[TBpup]

Who knows what Olshey will do. Historically, he has been very tied to his players or players he drafted. That said, this team is going no where without improvements and better balance. If players like CJ, Melo and Kanter are back, then he is not serious about winning. You can hide maybe one poor to average defender but not multiples....and that is where Portland starts every game with a Dame/CJ back court.

Add in Melo/Kanter, and it gets more ridiculous. Melo can't be back either because no matter how many times he goes nuclear for 3-5 minutes, his overall contribution is a big negative. Don't care about his legacy, don't care how much Dame likes him. Dame liked Stotts and wanted Kidd....suspect at best.

Kanter on a cheap contract is fine as maybe a 3rd string backup but any more than that, and again, you're not winning anything.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Remember Harden and Westbrook wanted out of Houston that right there hurt there trade value. I don't where CJ or Dame wants out of Portland makes a big difference when your trading someone in there stature.

But Harden, at least, IS A TOP PLAYER. That means teams are going to offer you something good for him NO MATTER WHAT. You get Harden, you're instantly a contender. Sadly, that is not the case with CJ.
With Harden, you can sit and wait for the offers to roll in. With CJ, you're calling around saying, "no, wait - he's really better than you think!"

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Am I alone in being totally okay with Norm leaving? He won't be worth the contract he gets and people will immediately start bitching about it. And he didn't turn us into a contender, he turned us from maybe a 7 seed into a 6 seed. Everyone seems to think he'll be worth it just as soon as we get rid of CJ, but CJ is a better shooter, better dribbler, better passer, and Norm's defense isn't half what it's cut out to be (except in patches - he's like a streak defender). There's a reason he never became a full-time starter in Toronto.

Plus CJ's not going anywhere. I have yet to see one remotely plausible trade idea for CJ. (Also: the number of people who (a) think Norm > CJ and (b) think nonetheless that the team that gave us Norm will gladly swap their core frontcourt player for CJ is not the zero it should be.)

Yes, I get it: if he goes, we're still over the cap, so keep him, right? Well, I'd prefer to give his minutes to Nas and Anfernee (who actually outperformed him in many measures). Maybe if he was five inches taller he'd be a really solid SF. But he isn't.

I'm hoping for a sign-and-trade, myself.

To be fair Norm played out of position having to guard someone that had 4-5 inches and 30lbs on him. Like Roco guarding Jokic.

norm is ideal pairing next to Dame. Guy who pushes pace and can get to the rim. Now need to surround him with players that actually play their normal position. Nas intrigues me I feel like Stotts gave guys shots in shorts doses but never fully backed them. They would fall in and out of rotation causing them to lose confidence.

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Not sure what your point is. They probably should, but they think they can contend when Klay comes back. (I have my doubts.) They might want to do something splashy, because they want to distract from the fact they took Wiseman over Ball.


So you're saying CJ could get worse? Possible. I bet he bounces back - he's got a lot of pride and he always has. But yes, the clock is ticking. If he's still with us in 14 months I'll push to trade him, too!



??? Are you saying Harden = CJ???



FOR AN EVEN WORSE PLAYER WITH AN EVEN WORSE CONTRACT!!!



Your argument is completely specious. The teams that traded the players you're comparing CJ to
(a) WERE REBUILDING - if we're doing that, we trade Dame.
(b) WERE TRADING THE BEST PLAYER IN THE TRADE - I thought the point was to trade CJ to IMPROVE.


Then let's keep him! Oh, that's right, he doesn't "fit". Well, we've been talking about trading him SINCE HE WAS DRAFTED and it hasn't happened, mainly because nobody could come up with a plausible one. Well, there was one, but that window passed.

I love this game people on this board play: "CJ'S A PILE OF SHIT! WE'VE GOT TO TRADE HIM! Hey, maybe we can get Ben Simmons or Paskal Siakam for him, because let's remember, "as much as we crack on CJ, he's still one of the better players in the league"



Um, if it's a choice between that trade and not trading CJ, then I think not trading CJ is ABSOLUTELY the best option.



"Cripple?" I guess Sam Hinkie really "crippled" the 76ers, huh.



Ironically (or something like that), it would make Olshey's life a lot easier if Dame demanded a trade. Then he could do the right thing and look like he was forced into it.

Unlike most I’m not as dead set against trading Dame. I think it seriously needs to be considered. You get max value, including several first round picks (maybe 3 team deal). I love Dame consider him the greatest Blazer of all time but if we can’t put a championship around him then trade him. You can’t fall in love with your players to the point you set back your franchise for decades. Sorry not popular view I’m just saying look at all options would love to put the right players around Dame for him to get us championship but if you can’t find that 2nd all star then trade him (for his sake and our franchise).

 

[wizenheimer]

Unlike most I’m not as dead set against trading Dame. I think it seriously needs to be considered. You get max value, including several first round picks (maybe 3 team deal). I love Dame consider him the greatest Blazer of all time but if we can’t put a championship around him then trade him. You can’t fall in love with your players to the point you set back your franchise for decades. Sorry not popular view I’m just saying look at all options would love to put the right players around Dame for him to get us championship but if you can’t find that 2nd all star then trade him (for his sake and our franchise).

what if he does not want to be traded?

 

[James lamphear]

But Harden, at least, IS A TOP PLAYER. That means teams are going to offer you something good for him NO MATTER WHAT. You get Harden, you're instantly a contender. Sadly, that is not the case with CJ.
With Harden, you can sit and wait for the offers to roll in. With CJ, you're calling around saying, "no, wait - he's really better than you think!"

Well they didn't get much from Brooklyn because Houston had there hands tied by Harden wanted out so right that decrease Houston chances get close fair market with trade. More likely that Houston probably didn't want to trade him to western conference team so that probably hurt them there. Now CJ because he got a big contract don't me a lesser value player with on there contract is not just as good as CJ the player. To me CJ contract is to big for what CJ gives us on the floor. Yes he can score but besides that the rest of his game is average or below average.

 

[1 Eye Jack]

what if he does not want to be traded?

Tough call the guy deserves to stay then you bust your ass and field the best team possible.

 

[Hoopguru]

Its now up to Jody & Bert to put a few stars around Dame. She should go into tax big time for the next 2-3 years to build a Championship team like the big boys are. Some of the elete teams are way over 100 million in Tax penalties. Marketing and winning can recoup some of it.

 

[Strenuus]

what if he does not want to be traded?

"On a burning bridge your options are minimal at best.
Depending on where you're standing. And how much breath is in your chest."

Summed up the answer you're probably gonna get lol

 

[blazerkor]

Just not any "nice player" that anyone on this board can present a remotely plausible case for.

Your whole take on CJ's value is way off in my estimation. Why in the world would you think his value is at an all time low when he is coming off a career year? Is it because he had one bad series? I sure hope you don't think that the NBA evaluates a veteran by just looking at six games.

The fact is, just like we know that CJ and Dame weigh each other down by both of them dominating the ball on offense and playing bad defense, other teams will know the same thing. GMs around the league will think like people in here do, including yourself, that CJ will play better without Dame (it's your entire reason to trade Dame instead of CJ and you seem to think other GMs can't see that and need a season of proof). There is value out there for a guy who can score like CJ. I don't think he's for everyone but I think there will be enough teams interested that we don't have to take pennies on the dollar in a trade that has CJ outgoing.

As far as your question of who we can get for CJ let me say this, you don't know. That question is a trap. Someone gets creative and says we can get Siakam in a three way and you will shoot it down. Someone says that if the Clips lose, Paul George will be available and CJ would be a good centerpiece in a trade package for him and you shoot that down. I know this game. So the likely answer is we don't know what player, that's on CJ's level we'll get in return for CJ, it just stands to reason that we can get someone of close to equal value because that's how trading commodities works.

 

[MickZagger]

CJ the player is nice. CJ the contract is not so nice.

 

[MickZagger]

CJ could be an incredible 6th man somewhere. He’d be a great Ginobili type guy coming off the bench.

 

[James lamphear]

Its now up to Jody & Bert to put a few stars around Dame. She should go into tax big time for the next 2-3 years to build a Championship team like the big boys are. Some of the elete teams are way over 100 million in Tax penalties. Marketing and winning can recoup some of it.

Didn't Paul try that and wasn't successful by doing that so he decided he wasn't going to do that anymore. So I believe she don't have to she won't do it but might not have any choice next year.

 

[BBert]

The ONLY circumstance in which I would trade Dame is if he asked to be traded. In which case, I would accommodate his wishes out of respect and appreciation.

 

[Labinot41]

Norm is working out with CJ Elleby, they seem to be close

 

[Mr. Robot]

hes probably teaching him how to be a selfish player

between cj mccollum and powell, he can hardly find better mentors

having one guy like that is too much, let alone three of them (carmelo), they wouldnt pass the ball to god, let alone another player

 

[blazedanugz]

Bobby marks states that we have the full MLE but if we use it then we’ll be hard capped. How do we have that? we used it last year..

we probably lose the Full MLE when burka contract is guaranteed and Powell is resigned right?

 

[tester551]

Bobby marks states that we have the full MLE but if we use it then we’ll be hard capped. How do we have that? we used it last year..

we probably lose the Full MLE when burka contract is guaranteed and Powell is resigned right?

Hes correct. The full MLE is there to use, but if used, we'd be hard capped at ~$5M above the Lux Tax line... severely limiting options.

Most likely we'll use the tax MLE at ~$6M to avoid the hard cap

 

[blazedanugz]

Hes correct. The full MLE is there to use, but if used, we'd be hard capped at ~$5M above the Lux Tax line... severely limiting options.

Most likely we'll use the tax MLE at ~$6M to avoid the hard cap

appreciate it.
So if we use the full MLE, we can still guarantee Nurk and resign Powell or not? Or is a situation that things need to happen in a certain order?

if we resign Powell and guarantee Nurk, does the full MLE go away?

 

[Natebishop3]

hes probably teaching him how to be a selfish player

between cj mccollum and powell, he can hardly find better mentors

having one guy like that is too much, let alone three of them (carmelo), they wouldnt pass the ball to god, let alone another player

He didn't strike me as especially selfish. He missed some open shots but he didn't force himself into the offense like CJ does.

 

[tykendo]

Unlike most I’m not as dead set against trading Dame. I think it seriously needs to be considered. You get max value, including several first round picks (maybe 3 team deal). I love Dame consider him the greatest Blazer of all time but if we can’t put a championship around him then trade him. You can’t fall in love with your players to the point you set back your franchise for decades. Sorry not popular view I’m just saying look at all options would love to put the right players around Dame for him to get us championship but if you can’t find that 2nd all star then trade him (for his sake and our franchise).

And i say again, the only team that wins when trading a generational talent, is the team receiving that generational talent. OKC has bucu draft picks that may or may not ever lead to a contending team. With todays one and done, most players in the draft are a total crapshoot. I will stick with the generational talent until he retires, or wants out.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

And i say again, the only team that wins when trading a generational talent, is the team receiving that generational talent. OKC has bucu draft picks that may or may not ever lead to a contending team. With todays one and done, most players in the draft are a total crapshoot. I will stick with the generational talent until he retires, or wants out.

I am currently on the don't-trade-Dame-but-if-we-want-to-rebuild-use-Dame-to-get-Ja-Morant train. Ja may also be a generational talent.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

hes probably teaching him how to be a selfish player

between cj mccollum and powell, he can hardly find better mentors

having one guy like that is too much, let alone three of them (carmelo), they wouldnt pass the ball to god, let alone another player

I was gonna try to find out if Powell actually was better at assists than CJ. But CJ is much better, in fact his 23% assist rate was his best ever and up 10 points from two years ago. Powell assist % was only 10. But I do think he can learn some toughness from Powell.

 

[Natebishop3]

I was gonna try to find out if Powell actually was better at assists than CJ. But CJ is much better, in fact his 23% assist rate was his best ever and up 10 points from two years ago. Powell assist % was only 10. But I do think he can learn some toughness from Powell.

Powell didn't really handle the ball much, if I remember.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Powell didn't really handle the ball much, if I remember.

Right. CJ had a usg % 0f 27 and Norm about 20. I agree with you on the eyeball test, that Norm looked like maybe he wanted to pass more but he learned in a different system than Stotts, so I don't think guys were where he thought they would be.