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julius said:
But please, feel free to tell me that i'm wrong and that I'm apparently a proponent of abortions or in favor of them.
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I think he's going to tell you to be a man and start hunting abortions.
 
julius said:
Well, holding up signs that say "abortion" isn't the same as holding up signs that say "pro choice". Because Pro choice means it's not for me to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her own body.

I'm pro choice, but I'm not in favor of abortions. I just believe that it's not for me to tell someone who isn't my wife or girlfriend, who I am not the father of the child, what to do with her own body.

And even if it is my own wife, I can't tell her what to do with her own body. I'd much rather she didn't have an abortion BUT I don't think the # of abortions that are just 'oops, didn't mean for that to happen' are has prevalent as others do.

Pro choice doesn't just mean 'abortion or not', in simple black or white terms (abortion on its own, isn't a black or white issue). There are health concerns you have to consider, both the mothers and the babies.

There are also people who are pro choice but would rather people put babies up for adoption if they can (i.e., healthy enough etc). But if you take away pro-choice, you pretty much make everyone who gets pregnant have to carry their pregnancy to full term.

In an ideal world, yeah, that would be good. but in the real world, no it's not.

I have two anecdotal cases here. A family friend was in her 40's when she got pregnant. It was a planned pregnancy, but she knew with her age (at the time) it could lead to health issues for the baby. She had the test done to see if there were any health issues with the baby, and there was (the baby would have down syndrome).

She chose to to have an abortion and while I didn't personally agree with her choice I supported her right to make the choice. As much as I didn't like the choice, nor felt comfortable with it, the pressure she was under (both in her own mind and her family) dwarfed any issues I had with it. What she needed was my support, and help. What she didn't need was me telling her that she can't make a choice on what to do with her own body.

Another case is a 2nd cousin of mine who had to have an abortion, because she had an ectopic pregnancy. Had she not had the abortion, she would've died.

In that case, I supported her choice and was glad it was a choice she was legally allowed to make.


I would never want to make that choice, but I would really never want to be denied the right to make that choice.

So thats why I think saying you're "pro choice" is not the same as saying you're "pro abortion". It's not the same, and it's just a simple way to demonize the argument.
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I agree with just about all of this.
 
BrianFromWA said:
My question was about the supporting-the-choice-equaling-supporting-the-act. If you supported someone having the choice for Act X, then it seems logically that you support their exercise of Act X.
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exactly, you want people to burn the flag

got it
 
julius said:
Again, thats a heaping pile of horse shit (it's now been upgraded from bull)

Examples:

I'm not pro war, but I'm pro military.

I'm not pro drug use, but I'm not pro drug war.

You can be for one thing (pro choice) but not for what the choice is, because I believe it is not my choice to decide what others should do.

For fucks sake, for a "libertarian" you should be all for this. Just because I don't agree with something doesn't mean everyone else has to abide by my rules.

Try this one on for size.

I'm pro hunting, but I'm against killing animals.

I think if you want to hunt animals, you can. thats your choice, and I'm not going to do something to stop you from doing it. But I don't think you should kill animals, for we can get food at local stores.

Of course, this opens a whole other issue about hunting for sport, hunting for necessity or hunting for cruelty. for sake of my argument, and since it's my argument I'm picking what version of hunting I'm using, I'm talking about hunting for sport.

I don't think hunting should be banned, but I don't like it and don't do it. Don't really see the point in it (if not for food/survival). I believe you have the choice to hunt if you want.

I don't think abortions should be banned, but I don't like it and hope to never have to do it. Don't really see the point in it (if not for survival of mother,rape/incest). I believe in giving women (or couples/families) the CHOICE of doing it if it is necessary.

But please, feel free to tell me that i'm wrong and that I'm apparently a proponent of abortions or in favor of them.
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You asked.

You are for killing animals.

And if you really want women to carry babies to term and put them up for adoption, you aren't pro-choice.

I happen to believe that if a 15 year old girl gets pregnant and wants an abortion, the abortion is almost certainly a great thing for her and everyone closely involved. So I am FOR the abortion, pro abortion.

Unlike you, I have no preference about whether women should carry babies to term and put them up for adoption. I figure if they want to they can, my preference is irrelevant. For whatever reason they CHOOSE to have an abortion, it's a good enough reason.
 
3RA1N1AC said:
:lol:

okie dokie
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I'm also against illegal drug use. I'm not "pro-choice to smoke up" or "pro-choice to steal from a pharmacy". I'd want anyone doing those acts stopped from doing them. I am NOT against burning flags, because as soon as I tell someone they can't burn a flag I can be stopped from telling them I don't like that they're doing so. I am not against hunting, even though I don't hunt, and I don't want to stop someone from shooting a deer.
 
no, i understand that you think they should have the right to, why do you want them to
 
If you're for gay rights that means you're gay!
 
you want them to burn the flag because they choose to?

not following
 
3RA1N1AC said:
you want them to burn the flag because they choose to?

not following
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Abortions.

I have no particular problem with burning the flag - it's a form of free speech. But like free speech, if you verbally assault someone, you might get punched in the face in response.
 
do you want people to burn the flag?

or do you just support their right to do it
 
Denny, you are confusing your world view with other world views, and are assuming the same motives for making decisions from other people that you have.

I could probably be considered "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice" but they are not the same thing.

I am pro-abortion because, for the most part, someone who would have an abortion is likely doing it from a perspective that they are unfit to be a parent at that moment, and we don't need more unwanted children. And I think overpopulation is becoming an issue, so thinning the herd is OK by me.

I am pro-choice because I believe there is only one person who is in the best position to assess their own life and make the decision if they are capable of having or raising a child. Government, the parents, and even the father should not be able to determine the outcome. I have no problem with others providing their opinion, but the final decision is the responsibility of only the pregnant woman. And I especially don't want the government making choices that should be an individuals.

So, feel free to call me pro-abortion, but that is not e same thing as being pro-choice. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not necessarily a square.
 
GOD said:
Denny, you are confusing your world view with other world views, and are assuming the same motives for making decisions from other people that you have.

I could probably be considered "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice" but they are not the same thing.

I am pro-abortion because, for the most part, someone who would have an abortion is likely doing it from a perspective that they are unfit to be a parent at that moment, and we don't need more unwanted children. And I think overpopulation is becoming an issue, so thinning the herd is OK by me.

I am pro-choice because I believe there is only one person who is in the best position to assess their own life and make the decision if they are capable of having or raising a child. Government, the parents, and even the father should not be able to determine the outcome. I have no problem with others providing their opinion, but the final decision is the responsibility of only the pregnant woman. And I especially don't want the government making choices that should be an individuals.

So, feel free to call me pro-abortion, but that is not e same thing as being pro-choice. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not necessarily a square.
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God has spoken.
 
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I like the rectangle/square analogy. So we may as well call an orange a blue as if the name makes any difference.

Because abortion is legal and because women do have a choice, there are between 500,000 and 1.5M abortions a year. Every one of them for good reason.

Which ones don't you favor?

I favor every one of them, as long as the woman freely chooses.
 
Denny Crane said:
I like the rectangle/square analogy. So we may as well call an orange a blue as if the name makes any difference.
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Not quite, a rectangle/square does not equal your blue orange analogy.what I was trying to say was that some pro-choice people (rectangles) are also pro-abortion (squares) but some pro-choice people (other rectangles) are not pro-abortion (squares).

Here is an example I made up to demonstrate:

Susie is a constitutional lawyer.
Susie believes in the constitution and its interpretation by the Supreme Court.
Susie believes in a woman's right to choose.

Susie is also a Catholic.
Susie believes in the bible and its interpretation by the Pope.
Susie would never get an abortion and prays that other women won't either.

Susie is pro-choice and anti-abortion

People are dichotomous and often have many beliefs at the same time that butt up against each other. Sure, this is an extreme example, but it is just used to illustrate my point.

Because abortion is legal and because women do have a choice, there are between 500,000 and 1.5M abortions a year. Every one of them for good reason.

Which ones don't you favor?

I favor every one of them, as long as the woman freely chooses.
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Favor is the wrong term for me, I couldn't give a shit about any of them that are outside my circle of friends and family as long as they are not forced (either way). As far as those inside my circle, well that would depend on how it would affect my loved ones. I would care, and might even give advice, but I would not presume to be the one that should make the decision.
 
GOD said:
Not quite, a rectangle/square does not equal your blue orange analogy.what I was trying to say was that some pro-choice people (rectangles) are also pro-abortion (squares) but some pro-choice people (other rectangles) are not pro-abortion (squares).

Here is an example I made up to demonstrate:

Susie is a constitutional lawyer.
Susie believes in the constitution and its interpretation by the Supreme Court.
Susie believes in a woman's right to choose.

Susie is also a Catholic.
Susie believes in the bible and its interpretation by the Pope.
Susie would never get an abortion and prays that other women won't either.

Susie is pro-choice and anti-abortion

People are dichotomous and often have many beliefs at the same time that butt up against each other. Sure, this is an extreme example, but it is just used to illustrate my point.


Favor is the wrong term for me, I couldn't give a shit about any of them that are outside my circle of friends and family as long as they are not forced (either way). As far as those inside my circle, well that would depend on how it would affect my loved ones. I would care, and might even give advice, but I would not presume to be the one that should make the decision.
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I think I dated Susie in college.
 
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