Post-deadline Olshey Keep or Fire

[Minstrel]

It's apparently fashionable to blame Neil right now, not that he deserves zero blame or anything. I blame the players. The players weren't "assets" because they didn't get better.
Vonleh's job was to get better... he sucks.
Bieb's job was to get better... he sucks.
Crabbe's job was to get better... he sucks.
Jake's job was to get better... he sucks.
Harkless's job was to get better... he's mediocre.
Aminu's job was to get better... he's mediocre.
The De-Beastization of Nurk this season is well documented (if he played like the last half of last season, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now).

I don't think Neil's the problem

I think the guy acquiring a bunch of players who (in your words) suck is a problem. Every player's job is to play to the best of their ability--it's completely removing any accountability from the GM to act like every player he acquired could have been great but they just didn't try hard enough or want it enough. Maybe one of those guys "didn't want it enough," but most of those guys probably did improve as much as their talent allows. The same holds true if you simply blame the coaches for not "unlocking their talent." Crabbe has continued to suck away from Portland. Nurkic played at this level in Denver too.

By your logic, how can you ever blame a GM? Just blame the players for "sucking." Cho was great, can't blame him for the players just sucking instead of improving. PatterNash was great, can't blame them for the players just sucking instead of improving.

 

[hoopsjock]

Davis has played more PF in his career than C, so what the fuck are you talking about. Ideally, in the off-season you get rid of Aminu for assets, Davis if he gets too expensive, or Turner and play Aminu almost strictly at SF. That saves at least $6M plus.

What am I talking about? I'm talking about you replacing one of the guys that has actually been really good for us this year in a specific role with a guy who couldn't play on a terrible team and who sucks at defense. On top of that you want to change the role for Davis to something he isn't any good at. All while limiting the minutes of our potential breakout star in Collins just so you can take a flyer on a guy who put up some meaningless stats last year as a rookie.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I think the guy acquiring a bunch of players who (in your words) suck is a problem. Every player's job is to play to the best of their ability--it's completely removing any accountability from the GM to act like every player he acquired could have been great but they just didn't try hard enough or want it enough. Maybe one of those guys "didn't want it enough," but most of those guys probably did improve as much as their talent allows. The same holds true if you simply blame the coaches for not "unlocking their talent." Crabbe has continued to suck away for Portland. Nurkic played at this level in Denver too.

By your logic, how can you ever blame a GM? Just blame the players for "sucking." Cho was great, can't blame him for the players just sucking instead of improving. PatterNash was great, can't blame them for the players just sucking instead of improving.

I would raise the substantial distinction between young players and vets, especially young players with tools.

Vonleh has a fantastic Strength*Athleticism. Great tools, he should have improved more.
Pat has meh tools, understandable if he didn't improve much (but he actually did)
Crabbe has a great shot and prototypical NBA 2G body, but didn't convert it into average NBA player.
Biebs has great Athleticism and 3 point shooting, but isn't an NBA player because he could learn the basic principles of NBA defense or offense.
......

Young Players with great tools need to improve, and if they don't it's on the players themselves and the coaching staff - not the GM.

Where does Neil deserve criticism? Look no farther than Evan Turner. Frankly, the ET signing was a panic move. Without the ET
signing, we're re-signing Vonleh today, and probably would have used our cap flexibility on another player, a la trade for Rolo and trade for Nurk.

The reason this all matters, is that some of these guys were supposed to turn into assets, and by not doing so destroyed not only our competitive, but our ability to consolidate. What are we left with?
1) An expiring contract for a good player in Ed Davis
2) Aminu, who would be a good chip in a multiplayer trade, but no one's going after just him.
3) A first-rounder in 2018.
4) Fat contracts that can be used to match larger salaries.

The team's best player went over Neil's head and said don't trade Davis. IMHO, we should have used our 1st rounder to get a player (e.g. Rodney Hood), but Neil, for whatever reason didn't. 2) and 4) aren't enough to get a good player.

So, yes, my additional criticism of Neil is that he didn't use the 1st this trade deadline. I'll be watching to see what happens to it. If we don't trade it, and end up drafting a player like Justin Jackson, I'll be disappointed/annoyed.

 

[Minstrel]

I would raise the substantial distinction between young players and vets, especially young players with tools.

...

Young Players with great tools need to improve, and if they don't it's on the players themselves and the coaching staff - not the GM.

Tools don't mean a player is destined to be great, or else they just didn't work hard enough. Otherwise, drafting would be easy--just use their measurements (including timed speed, ability to lift, etc). Basketball talent is a lot more than just how fast you can run, how high you can jump, how strong you are, etc.

Virtually every player who makes it to the NBA has some physical tools that you can call a strength, in the way you did with the list of players you gave.

Young players need to work hard. How much they improve depends on their talent level (which is not the same thing as their physical tools). It's entirely possible that Olshey simply did a poor job of finding good/great basketball talent and these players did improve to the extent that their talent level allowed (not much).

 

[CupWizier]

Interesting theory..... go take a look at the Hornets roster and let me know if you'd like to swap teams.

No kidding. Charlotte is definitely not an example I would like to see thew Blazers follow.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'll be mildly surprised if he's not fired before the draft.
I'll be SHOCKED if he's not fired immediately after the draft if he doesn't make a huge change to the roster on draft day.
Draft day is the absolute drop dead date, IMO - he certainly doesn't deserve another Free Agency period.

Year three of a 3-5 year rebuild.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be on the hot seat, but I doubt PA fires him until he sees the 5 years plan is lost.
And it isn't lost yet.

We just did better coming out of the gate at the base of the mountain, but its still a fricken mountain to climb when you lose 4 of your 5 starters.

This is kinda like asking why sprinters cant keep their pace for a long run when they gun it out of the gate. Come one.. you cant figure that out?

Moves arent done, rebuild isnt done, NO is not done.

If its truly a 5 year plan to emerge as GSW fades, then we are in perfect position in a year or two to package our overpaid expirings with whatever else to take a top dollar star back.

NO, Dame and CJ wont be past their prime in two years ( some people seem to think a prime is a six month span or something when its closer to a ten years span).

I think this also bodes well for us to have solid vets on the team along with our new young future bigs and then the x factor that NO makes a trade for when our overpaid guys become valuable expiring contracts for other teams ot rid the books of.

People need to calm down.

Barfo said.... Waited 40 years so far.. what the hell is another year or two gonna do to kill ya?

In this instant world, there is just too little patience. Plain and simple.

 

[mook]

The key fact for me is that 2.5 years ago our franchise player walked for nothing, basically right after he promised he wouldn't. I don't blame Olshey for that.

But also Matthews limped on one ankle into a $70m free agency contract with the Mavs. I certainly don't blame Olshey for that.

And we let the Knicks sign Lopez for a $50m deal, which I'm glad we aren't on the hook for as well (especially given how the league has gone).

In hindsight the Batum trade didn't yield anything special for us, which is pretty disappointing and is definitely something you can pin on Olshey. But those other three guys were more in the "shit happens" bucket than anything else. When your franchise player plus 2 really good starters leave because shit happens, well, I can't blame the GM for not putting better pieces around Dame quickly.

We have that classic problem where you have a really good franchise player, a really good second banana, and so you don't get great draft picks. We also have never been able to attract free agents, so that option is out.

So Olshey is left picking through the bargain bin and working trades, which every other team in the league can do just as well. Olshey has to be elite at this if the Blazers are going to go anywhere, while other GM's just have to be decent at it. Is Olshey elite? Not really. But he's certainly better than most. I'm not optimistic that we're going to find another GM who can do those things better.

 

[LayneStaley]

We have one of the richest owners in sports, why can’t he buy one of the best front offices. It’s not like there’s a salary cap or any financial restrictions. Throw 10+ mil at Danny Ainge, general managers can resign to switch franchises, worst case he breaks his current contract and has to pay back some money, im sure Allen could cover any losses in his new deal. Seems to me there are about 4-5 gm that are superior to the rest, why we don’t have one with Allen owning the team baffles me...I mean we had Cho for fucks sake.

 

[Jade Falcon]

Year three of a 3-5 year rebuild.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be on the hot seat, but I doubt PA fires him until he sees the 5 years plan is lost.
And it isn't lost yet.

We just did better coming out of the gate at the base of the mountain, but its still a fricken mountain to climb when you lose 4 of your 5 starters.

This is kinda like asking why sprinters cant keep their pace for a long run when they gun it out of the gate. Come one.. you cant figure that out?

Moves arent done, rebuild isnt done, NO is not done.

If its truly a 5 year plan to emerge as GSW fades, then we are in perfect position in a year or two to package our overpaid expirings with whatever else to take a top dollar star back.

NO, Dame and CJ wont be past their prime in two years ( some people seem to think a prime is a six month span or something when its closer to a ten years span).

I think this also bodes well for us to have solid vets on the team along with our new young future bigs and then the x factor that NO makes a trade for when our overpaid guys become valuable expiring contracts for other teams ot rid the books of.

People need to calm down.

Barfo said.... Waited 40 years so far.. what the hell is another year or two gonna do to kill ya?

In this instant world, there is just too little patience. Plain and simple.

We're impatient because we're not likely to see another Damian Lillard fall into our laps in a very long time. He's our best chance to do something meaningful with. And he's not gonna stay young forever.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I

We have one of the richest owners in sports, why can’t he buy one of the best front offices. It’s not like there’s a salary cap or any financial restrictions. Throw 10+ mil at Danny Ainge, general managers can resign to switch franchises, worst case he breaks his current contract and has to pay back some money, im sure Allen could cover any losses in his new deal. Seems to me there are about 4-5 gm that are superior to the rest, why we don’t have one with Allen owning the team baffles me...I mean we had Cho for fucks sake.

Why does it baffle you? If we can toss contracts out to players like parsons and they pass and everyone believes we can’t get free agents hen why do you think money can buy out the elite gms and front office???
They wouldn’t want to be here for the same reasons right??


Listen

I’ll say it like tony Ziegler from West wing once said.

You have a problem?

Okay. What’s your solution?

You have none?

Don’t come to me without our a solution!!! Don’t come to me with half a thing!!!

If you don’t have a solution then you do not fully understand your problem!!! Go back and study more and Come back to me with a solution before you bitch about a problem!!!

 

[Shaboid]

I


Why does it baffle you? If we can toss contracts out to players like parsons and they pass and everyone believes we can’t get free agents hen why do you think money can buy out the elite gms and front office???
They wouldn’t want to be here for the same reasons right??


Listen

I’ll say it like tony Ziegler from West wing once said.

You have a problem?

Okay. What’s your solution?

You have none?

Don’t come to me without our a solution!!! Don’t come to me with half a thing!!!

If you don’t have a solution then you do not fully understand your problem!!! Go back and study more and Come back to me with a solution before you bitch about a problem!!!

I use this exact Toby quote in my day job very often.

 

[LayneStaley]

I


Why does it baffle you? If we can toss contracts out to players like parsons and they pass and everyone believes we can’t get free agents hen why do you think money can buy out the elite gms and front office???
They wouldn’t want to be here for the same reasons right??


Listen

I’ll say it like tony Ziegler from West wing once said.

You have a problem?

Okay. What’s your solution?

You have none?

Don’t come to me without our a solution!!! Don’t come to me with half a thing!!!

If you don’t have a solution then you do not fully understand your problem!!! Go back and study more and Come back to me with a solution before you bitch about a problem!!!

Are you serious? Because paying players and front offices is no where close to the same! The pay scale for an nba gm is between 1-3mil per year, that’s right the top ones make 3 mil per year, triple that for the best and see if their current team matches to keep them, I doubt it. As far as coming here, money talks, ask Evan Turner. The difference between parsons and an elite gm coming here would be that there were other teams offering Parsons a max, if you triple the going rate for an elite gm I doubt anyone else beats your offer.

For the record my solution in both my replies were to overpay for a top 5 gm, significantly overpay if you have to.

 

[LayneStaley]

Why did Neil choose pdx after being in LA? M O N E Y

 

[CupWizier]

Olshey could've done many other things along with that Vonleh trade and stayed under the tax. He didn't.

Such as?

 

[BonesJones]

Such as?

Hernangomez. Which shows me that there were probably others as well.

 

[hoopsjock]

Hernangomez. Which shows me that there were probably others as well.

We need wings!

 

[CupWizier]

Hernangomez. Which shows me that there were probably others as well.

Exactly my point. No need for another big man project when we have more pressing needs and we weren't likely going to win a championship this season.

 

[riverman]

I don’t think Neil has a good eye for talent, in 2016 before the horrible signings Parsons and Howard were the main targets! Imagine if we had landed both of those guys, lol.

Parsons was not a target...they did due diligence but didn't have another conversation...Neil wanted ET...we weren't trying to get Parsons...that isn't how it went down...Neil talked to all the agents...we did go after Enis Kanter...

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

We need a new soap opera star. I think this girl in a movie I just saw was in one. Tell HER no on a trade.

 

[BonesJones]

Exactly my point. No need for another big man project when we have more pressing needs and we weren't likely going to win a championship this season.

Dude isn't a project. He's as good as Davis and close to Burks level, he just needs 20mpg. He's signed for $1.4M for the next two years. Would give us additional flexibility for decision making going into the off-season. We just got rid of a big man project too. If Davis walks or gets offered $10M+ were fucked at backup C.

 

[BonesJones]

We need wings!

If you can improve the team you do it. We need wings but were not going to acquire one we need with two 2nds. We could've had our backup C for the next 5 years if we made that trade. Would allow us flexibility in deciding what to do with Davis.

We're in a position where we have to improve our team even if it's marginally and not at the most pressing need. Hernangomez was the type who, with additional playing time, could showcase his talent enough to become a big piece in a trade down the road for a wing.

 

[Propagandist]

Parsons was not a target...they did due diligence but didn't have another conversation...Neil wanted ET...we weren't trying to get Parsons...that isn't how it went down...Neil talked to all the agents...we did go after Enis Kanter...

We offered Parsons a max deal, and he turned it down to play for the same amount in Memphis. He was our top free agent target.

 

[CupWizier]

Dude isn't a project. He's as good as Davis and close to Burks level, he just needs 20mpg. He's signed for $1.4M for the next two years. Would give us additional flexibility for decision making going into the off-season. We just got rid of a big man project too. If Davis walks or gets offered $10M+ were fucked at backup C.

Lol. we're fucked at back up center? You mean there is not ever going to be another opportunity to find a back up center? We also haven't had the best luck with Spaniards either. By the way, Davis loves it here and I have a strong suspicion he will be in Portland next year.

 

[BonesJones]

Lol. we're fucked at back up center? You mean there is not ever going to be another opportunity to find a back up center? We also haven't had the best luck with Spaniards either. By the way, Davis loves it here and I have a strong suspicion he will be in Portland next year.

I feel like he'll be back too but he and Hernangomez can play together. We'll have the taxpayer MLE next year so yeah, we could find someone for ~$5M, I just don't think we can pay Davis a ton because of our financial situation and if he gets offered a better contract from elsewhere, I don't know if he'll stay here.

But Hernangomez is better than Davis. This dude is straight up legit. I'm all about trading for guys the other team undervalues, because hypothetically, if you make enough trades for players that our better than the package you're sending out, you can turn a 2nd round pick into a legit starter. (ex. We traded a heavily protected 2nd for Bazz and Moe, you could potentially trade those for a good starter who's undervalued by his team, get that guy performing up to his capabilities [think someone like Tobias Harris this year], and then flip him for a star [Blake Griffin]).

We have to increase our asset level. Hernangomez would've done that. I'm sure that there's others that would've done that that might not have been as good but would've fit better with our rotation.

 

[Propagandist]

I was reflecting while reading through these posts that Olshey has actually gotten really lucky on his misses. Guys he's gone after oftentimes are actual garbage: Parsons, ET, Hibbert, Enis Kanter (relative to his contract and he's having an alright year in NY), freaking Greg Monroe, Afflalo...the list goes on. We'd be hating life if he'd been more "successful." I mean, if Olshey hadn't drafted Damian Lillard, he'd have been fired already. Dame is his one gem and has buoyed Olshey along (I know CJ is good, but if just CJ Olshey is fired, and if just Dame he's probably still got a job).

 

[CupWizier]

We need a new soap opera star. I think this girl in a movie I just saw was in one. Tell HER no on a trade. View attachment 18574

Reading through this forum there is plenty to choose from to become a new soap opera star.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Reading through this forum there is plenty to choose from to become a new soap opera star.

Ain't none of them look like that. If there is, lemme know.

 

[CupWizier]

I feel like he'll be back too but he and Hernangomez can play together. We'll have the taxpayer MLE next year so yeah, we could find someone for ~$5M, I just don't think we can pay Davis a ton because of our financial situation and if he gets offered a better contract from elsewhere, I don't know if he'll stay here.

But Hernangomez is better than Davis. This dude is straight up legit. I'm all about trading for guys the other team undervalues, because hypothetically, if you make enough trades for players that our better than the package you're sending out, you can turn a 2nd round pick into a legit starter. (ex. We traded a heavily protected 2nd for Bazz and Moe, you could potentially trade those for a good starter who's undervalued by his team, get that guy performing up to his capabilities [think someone like Tobias Harris this year], and then flip him for a star [Blake Griffin]).

We have to increase our asset level. Hernangomez would've done that. I'm sure that there's others that would've done that that might not have been as good but would've fit better with our rotation.

We will be under the luxury tax going into the off season next year which adds more flexibility.

 

[BonesJones]

We will be under the luxury tax going into the off season next year which adds more flexibility.

And Hernangomez could potentially keep us under the luxury tax for next season as well depending on the moves we make. He'll be $6M cheaper than Davis, younger with more upside, and just as good.

 

[CupWizier]

I feel like he'll be back too but he and Hernangomez can play together. We'll have the taxpayer MLE next year so yeah, we could find someone for ~$5M, I just don't think we can pay Davis a ton because of our financial situation and if he gets offered a better contract from elsewhere, I don't know if he'll stay here.

But Hernangomez is better than Davis. This dude is straight up legit. I'm all about trading for guys the other team undervalues, because hypothetically, if you make enough trades for players that our better than the package you're sending out, you can turn a 2nd round pick into a legit starter. (ex. We traded a heavily protected 2nd for Bazz and Moe, you could potentially trade those for a good starter who's undervalued by his team, get that guy performing up to his capabilities [think someone like Tobias Harris this year], and then flip him for a star [Blake Griffin]).

We have to increase our asset level. Hernangomez would've done that. I'm sure that there's others that would've done that that might not have been as good but would've fit better with our rotation.

HermanGomez averages 9mpg for a team that is 10 games under .500. If he couldn't get time in New York, why would he get time here?