Require parents who don’t want a child vaccinated to get a science lesson

[ABM]

My step daughter....

Dang, you got married??

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Dang, you got married??

Her mother and I have been together for many a year. Step daughter might not be a legal term but it would be the most accurate description.

 

[ABM]

Her mother and I have been together for many a year. Step daughter might not be a legal term but it would be the most accurate description.

Good enough. I'll now start calling her your wife. Losing the "girlfriend" moniker. 'Bout time.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

A recommendation for anyone interested. Neil Degrasse Tyson has a podcast called Startalk where they look at different science issues from a new or approachable perspective. The last two episodes were "Zombie Apocolypse" parts 1 and 2. Zombies were used as analogies for viruses, so the real topic is viruses. I enjoyed part two more, but both were interesting.
StarTalk Podcast website

Zombie Apocalypse Part 1

Zombie Apocalypse Part 2

LOL! I just now saw this post. I've been listening to Star Talk for years. Fun show. I sometimes get tired of the comedians he has on there. Such a fascinating person and he's interviewing Joan Rivers. Weird. But for the most part he does get some great guests.

I also listen to Michio Kaku's weekly podcast.

 

[Denny Crane]

Bravo, I rep you sir.

The answer is simple, if all the parameters were as you have set forth, I would, without hesitation, force you to give up the money. It sounds cold, it sounds wrong, but I weigh life much heavier than money.

Jews who are devout and practice full kosher, are permitted to eat pork, or break other kosher laws, if their life depends on it.

Lord of the Flies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies

Lord of the Flies is a novel by Nobel Prize-winning English author William Golding about a group of British boys stuck on an uninhabited island who try to govern themselves with disastrous results. Its stances on the already controversial subjects of human nature and individual welfare versus the common good earned it position 68 on the American Library Association’s list of the 100 most frequently challenged books of 1990–1999.[2] In 2005 the novel was chosen by TIME magazine as one of the 100 best English-language novels from 1923 to 2005.[3] It was awarded a place on both lists of Modern Library 100 Best Novels, reaching number 41 on the editor's list, and 25 on the reader's list. In 2003, the novel was listed at number 70 on the BBC's survey The Big Read.[4]

...

Jack and his band of "savages" decide that they should possess Piggy's glasses, the only means of starting a fire on the island, so they raid Ralph's camp, confiscate the glasses, and return to their abode on Castle Rock. Ralph, now deserted by most of his supporters, journeys to Castle Rock to confront Jack and secure the glasses. Taking the conch and accompanied only by Piggy, Sam, and Eric, Ralph finds the tribe and demands that they return the valuable object. Turning against Ralph, the tribe takes Sam and Eric captive while Roger drops a boulder from his vantage point above, killing Piggy and shattering the conch. Ralph manages to escape, but Sam and Eric are tortured until they agree to join Jack's tribe.

 

[Further]

LOL! I just now saw this post. I've been listening to Star Talk for years. Fun show. I sometimes get tired of the comedians he has on there. Such a fascinating person and he's interviewing Joan Rivers. Weird. But for the most part he does get some great guests.

I also listen to Michio Kaku's weekly podcast.

I like Startalk, but too many segments. I really wish he would delve a little deeper sometimes, but it's a fun show and gives a great taste of different topics.

Michio Kaku's podcast I listened to a couple times, one was fascinating, the next was boring. So in a " what have you done for me lately" move, I never listened again. I just put it back on my iPhone and ill try it again. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Further]

Lord of the Flies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies

Lord of the Flies is a novel by Nobel Prize-winning English author William Golding about a group of British boys stuck on an uninhabited island who try to govern themselves with disastrous results. Its stances on the already controversial subjects of human nature and individual welfare versus the common good earned it position 68 on the American Library Association’s list of the 100 most frequently challenged books of 1990–1999.[2] In 2005 the novel was chosen by TIME magazine as one of the 100 best English-language novels from 1923 to 2005.[3] It was awarded a place on both lists of Modern Library 100 Best Novels, reaching number 41 on the editor's list, and 25 on the reader's list. In 2003, the novel was listed at number 70 on the BBC's survey The Big Read.[4]

...

I was being honest if it were affecting me, this is not to say its the best policy for government.

It reminded me of Dukakis being asked about the rape and murder of Kitty. You can answer honestly, which opposes your strategy, or you can answer with a lie, that makes you look like a lying, gutless dick. I answered that I'd like Kitty's rapest shot right between the eyes.

 

[MARIS61]

I agree up to a point. These "rights" are noble and should be upheld as much as possible, but there are times where my rights and your rights clash. Is your right to not be poked with a needle if you don't want it greater than my right to not be killed or harmed by a pathogen? I just don't think it's as easy of a situation as you make it out to be.

If you're afraid of un-vaccinated people, stay in your fucking bubble. Then everybody is happy.

 

[MARIS61]

And here are FOURTY-ONE studies that show there is no link between vaccines and autism.

Please post the part that shows there is no link between vaccines and autism. I couldn't find it, just a bunch of empty paid opinions saying "I looked and didn't see a link".

 

[MARIS61]

Just to point out, the literal crippling effects of polio were everywhere when it was not mandated. The few hundreds of deaths from not vaccinating are just starting to get noticed within the last year.

Flu deaths have ballooned worldwide since the implementation of the flu vaccine.

 

[MARIS61]

But, aside from that, if you live in a community, you benefit from the community, there may be requirements to remain in the community. For some communities, that means that you can't paint your front door red (a neighborhood community) while in others it might mean that you may not tattoo your body (Amish community). It is your choice to remain part of that community or to leave that community. If having a red door is important to you, move across town. If having a tattoo is important, then leave the Amish. Likewise, if you are in a city and they determine that for the safety and well-being of the society vaccinations are required, then I agree that you should be able to opt out, but there may be repercussions like being forced out of the city. It's your body, but the disease you may carry and mutate will affect everyone around you. They should have the right to protect their bodies from you.

They have the right to move away.

In your first examples, you knowingly join a community with certain rules.

In the last example, part of the community changes the rules against your wishes and tries to force your compliance.

 

[MARIS61]

And rights have conditions all the time. The right to arms is limited in scope, no private nukes for example. The right to free speech, except cases like yelling fire in a movie theater or inciting violence. Right to assembly, unless it is in the way of something else. Right to representation unless you are a felon. There are all sorts of limits on our rights. Too many I think, but they are common as can be. There is no difference why in the case of preventing the deaths of millions that this might be a time to limit those rights.

You are referring to laws, most of which are meaningless, unnecessary and unenforceable.

Rights are a birthright, but only as long as you're willing to defend them.

They can only infringe upon your rights as much as you allow them to.

And there are no laws against yelling fire in a theater (unless you're lying about the fire).

If there is a fire in a theater, and you don't yell fire, you may be in violation of the Good Samaritan Law in some states.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

 

[crandc]

Flu deaths have ballooned worldwide since the implementation of the flu vaccine.

Hmm, apparently the well educated Maris is unaware of the 1918 influenza pandemic?

What is your source?
Absolute numbers may have increased, after all, the world's population has increased and more of us are living in cities. What about relative numbers?

For the record, I support the right to birth control and abortion and yes childbirth not because I think a woman's body is her property but because I think a woman has the right to make her own choices. Even those I personaly disagree with. It's not a property question, it's a human rights question.

Papa G, if everyone was opposed to rape, we would not have so many rapes, so many rape victims being demonized while the rapists are excused, so many jokes about how funny rape is, et al.

And back to the original, no one is being forced to vaccinate. They are being made to get information. Again, why is informed consent such a bad thing?

Here is a thought experiment. Was Harriet Tubman a hero or a criminal? She stole property from its lawful owners. No question. Admittedly. Very valuable property. Slaves were as much property as a house, a horse, land, furniture, whatever. And a prime young adult was worth a lot of money. If property rights are your starting point, was she a criminal for stealing all that property? The property that was human beings?

 

[Denny Crane]

Hmm, apparently the well educated Maris is unaware of the 1918 influenza pandemic?

What is your source?
Absolute numbers may have increased, after all, the world's population has increased and more of us are living in cities. What about relative numbers?

For the record, I support the right to birth control and abortion and yes childbirth not because I think a woman's body is her property but because I think a woman has the right to make her own choices. Even those I personaly disagree with. It's not a property question, it's a human rights question.

Papa G, if everyone was opposed to rape, we would not have so many rapes, so many rape victims being demonized while the rapists are excused, so many jokes about how funny rape is, et al.

And back to the original, no one is being forced to vaccinate. They are being made to get information. Again, why is informed consent such a bad thing?

Here is a thought experiment. Was Harriet Tubman a hero or a criminal? She stole property from its lawful owners. No question. Admittedly. Very valuable property. Slaves were as much property as a house, a horse, land, furniture, whatever. And a prime young adult was worth a lot of money. If property rights are your starting point, was she a criminal for stealing all that property? The property that was human beings?

Your "human rights" question is a property rights question.

You cannot wish away the reliance of one on the other.

The OP talks about a state law requiring immunizations.

"SALEM — On a party-line vote, the Oregon Senate approved on Thursday a bill that will make it more difficult for parents to opt out of state-required immunizations for their children when they enter schools or group child care. "

 

[Eastoff]

Please post the part that shows there is no link between vaccines and autism. I couldn't find it, just a bunch of empty paid opinions saying "I looked and didn't see a link".

That's funny, I see a person who admits to be not a real person. Then shits on everyone else's opinion without giving any sources. Long story short, why don't you throw away your laptops and cellphones too, because those might be causing you cancer. Or are you just afraid to admit that autism might be caused by the parents bad genes and life decisions at fault?

 

[Denny Crane]

That's funny, I see a person who admits to be not a real person. Then shits on everyone else's opinion without giving any sources. Long story short, why don't you throw away your laptops and cellphones too, because those might be causing you cancer. Or are you just afraid to admit that autism might be caused by the parents bad genes and life decisions at fault?

It wouldn't surprise me if there has always been a consistent rate of people with autism. The fact that we identify more people doesn't mean there's more of it, just that we're better at identifying people who have it.

 

[Eastoff]

It wouldn't surprise me if there has always been a consistent rate of people with autism. The fact that we identify more people doesn't mean there's more of it, just that we're better at identifying people who have it.

without a doubt there have always been "That boy is off." And there are more people thus raising the number of autism cases (assuming it's a percent of the population) Additionally there are studies (as I posted previously) that show there are links to the father being older and the mother being obese. These factors have also gone up.

 

[Further]

I biked this morning with a scientist from OHSU and we discussed the vaccine issue. His belief is that you should be able to opt out, but that once you do so the kid should not be allowed to attend public school, fly or ride on public planes and buses, and basically be ostracized from group settings. We live in cities and part of that is managing disease. If people aren't willing to do their part in that management, and are in turn putting everyone else at risk of sickness or death, they should not be allowed to be members of that population. It sounds tough, and likely it is too much at this time, but there is little doubt that already we have some deaths due to insufficient vaccinations. At what point do those deaths become too high? 5 deaths a year? 50? 50,000 deaths, 5 million deaths? If five million people a year die as a result of people not getting vaccinations, is that enough to make it mandatory. Don't forget, not getting vaccinated doesn't just affect that person, it affects other non-vaccinated, as well as potentially all vaccinated people as well because they may serve as the pathogen host during a mutation that could make vaccinations no longer effective.

TB is on a comeback right now, especially in certain jails and confined areas around the world. But what is scary is that this new TB has mutated so whereas it used to be fully treatable, now most treatments do not work and a high percentage of those who get this mutated strain die as a result even if they receive treatment. The common flu kills a half million a year, mostly old and young. If the flu vaccinations were mandatory, we would likely be able to limit the threat and possibly be able to eradicate it. Of course some of those half mil would still die, or would die soon after because they are the weak in our society, but lets say 1 in ten survived and were able to live a healthy life, thats 50,000 lives saved.

 

[magnifier661]

I biked this morning with a scientist from OHSU and we discussed the vaccine issue. His belief is that you should be able to opt out, but that once you do so the kid should not be allowed to attend public school, fly or ride on public planes and buses, and basically be ostracized from group settings. We live in cities and part of that is managing disease. If people aren't willing to do their part in that management, and are in turn putting everyone else at risk of sickness or death, they should not be allowed to be members of that population. It sounds tough, and likely it is too much at this time, but there is little doubt that already we have some deaths due to insufficient vaccinations. At what point do those deaths become too high? 5 deaths a year? 50? 50,000 deaths, 5 million deaths? If five million people a year die as a result of people not getting vaccinations, is that enough to make it mandatory. Don't forget, not getting vaccinated doesn't just affect that person, it affects other non-vaccinated, as well as potentially all vaccinated people as well because they may serve as the pathogen host during a mutation that could make vaccinations no longer effective.

TB is on a comeback right now, especially in certain jails and confined areas around the world. But what is scary is that this new TB has mutated so whereas it used to be fully treatable, now most treatments do not work and a high percentage of those who get this mutated strain die as a result even if they receive treatment. The common flu kills a half million a year, mostly old and young. If the flu vaccinations were mandatory, we would likely be able to limit the threat and possibly be able to eradicate it. Of course some of those half mil would still die, or would die soon after because they are the weak in our society, but lets say 1 in ten survived and were able to live a healthy life, thats 50,000 lives saved.

Population control man!

 

[Further]

Population control man!

If you want to be carefree about tens of thousands of dead people, then sure.

 

[crandc]

I wonder if all these "carefree" folks would be so carefree if their own very young (pre-vaccination) age child got measles or god forbid polio from the school age child of someone who opposed vaccines.

Polio is also starting to come back. Criminal.

 

[Denny Crane]

I biked this morning with a scientist from OHSU and we discussed the vaccine issue. His belief is that you should be able to opt out, but that once you do so the kid should not be allowed to attend public school, fly or ride on public planes and buses, and basically be ostracized from group settings. We live in cities and part of that is managing disease. If people aren't willing to do their part in that management, and are in turn putting everyone else at risk of sickness or death, they should not be allowed to be members of that population. It sounds tough, and likely it is too much at this time, but there is little doubt that already we have some deaths due to insufficient vaccinations. At what point do those deaths become too high? 5 deaths a year? 50? 50,000 deaths, 5 million deaths? If five million people a year die as a result of people not getting vaccinations, is that enough to make it mandatory. Don't forget, not getting vaccinated doesn't just affect that person, it affects other non-vaccinated, as well as potentially all vaccinated people as well because they may serve as the pathogen host during a mutation that could make vaccinations no longer effective.

TB is on a comeback right now, especially in certain jails and confined areas around the world. But what is scary is that this new TB has mutated so whereas it used to be fully treatable, now most treatments do not work and a high percentage of those who get this mutated strain die as a result even if they receive treatment. The common flu kills a half million a year, mostly old and young. If the flu vaccinations were mandatory, we would likely be able to limit the threat and possibly be able to eradicate it. Of course some of those half mil would still die, or would die soon after because they are the weak in our society, but lets say 1 in ten survived and were able to live a healthy life, thats 50,000 lives saved.

How many vaccines should be required? 1? 2? for 100 diseases that might get people ill?

Who decides?

 

[Further]

I wonder if all these "carefree" folks would be so carefree if their own very young (pre-vaccination) age child got measles or god forbid polio from the school age child of someone who opposed vaccines.

Polio is also starting to come back. Criminal.

To be fair, I think Magnifier was just making a joke. But it's a joke that too many in our society actually do believe. And I think it's interesting that the atheist (me) is taking the side of helping secure the safety and health of the meek and infirm in our society and the one who believes in Jesus (Mags) makes a statement like "population control man!" from Mags or "Culling the herd. Who is mankind to mess with natural controls of human population?" by PapaG

 

[Eastoff]

To be fair, I think Magnifier was just making a joke. But it's a joke that too many in our society actually do believe. And I think it's interesting that the atheist (me) is taking the side of helping secure the safety and health of the meek and infirm in our society and the one who believes in Jesus (Mags) makes a statement like "population control man!" from Mags or "Culling the herd. Who is mankind to mess with natural controls of human population?" by PapaG

it all depends on who you think you have to answer to in existance. God or the other humans or whatever papag worships (I think it's Ulag the great Troll. ;]

 

[Further]

How many vaccines should be required? 1? 2? for 100 diseases that might get people ill?

Who decides?

I was stating what the thoughts of a scientist that I bike with in the morning, not mine exactly, but I do lean closer to his viewpoint than yours. Who decides? I would suggest the decision would have to be made by people with great expertise in the subject, so a group of virologists, microbiologists, bioinformaticists, population biologists, and other specialists who can understand the issues at play and design an optimal plan. That group may be in the govnment, or they may be private sector, But basically a bunch a smart people with years and years of specialization in the appropriate fields.

 

[Denny Crane]

Also, GOD, your buddy has it right.

No vaccination, no public school.

Fine. It's a choice to attend public school as well as it is to get the vaccination.

 

[PapaG]

To be fair, I think Magnifier was just making a joke. But it's a joke that too many in our society actually do believe. And I think it's interesting that the atheist (me) is taking the side of helping secure the safety and health of the meek and infirm in our society and the one who believes in Jesus (Mags) makes a statement like "population control man!" from Mags or "Culling the herd. Who is mankind to mess with natural controls of human population?" by PapaG

True sarcasm doesn't need green font. My kids are vaccinated.

 

[Further]

True sarcasm doesn't need green font. My kids are vaccinated.

Green font is not for the sighted author, but the blind reader.

 

[RR7]

Polio is also starting to come back. Criminal.

From the WHO:

Polio cases have decreased by over 99% since 1988, from an
estimated 350 000 cases then, to 223 reported cases in 2012. The reduction is the result of the global effort to eradicate the disease.

Don't call it a comeback?