Zombie The Next Siakam? Don't Sleep On Zach Collins.

[lawai'a]

Pick ten regardless of team has Zach rated BPA for the majority of teams, the process projects him as better than those chosen later how can any GM justify not taking him at 10? This statement is conjecture only of course.

 

[GDiama]

I think he is the next Anthony Davis actually, so good!

 

[GhostOfPGA]

I think he is the next Anthony Davis actually, so good!

Yeah! And Eliot Williams is just one rehab away from being the next Kobe!

 

[PCmor7]

Zzzzzzzz ... huh? Wha? Sorry, did someone say something about Zach Collins? I must have been sleeping.

 

[Serbian]

Total trash

 

[Orion Bailey]

I have to admit....I lost the track of what your were trying to say.

I mean, for instance: "What info was available on what players?"...my answer would be the info every GM should be responsible for having. That's draft evaluation right there

and: "Hindsight is always 20/20. And thats why looking back in that manner is basically useless." I'm sorry, but in my opinion, that's total abject nonsense. Hindsight is invaluable. We have no other way to evaluate decisions than from hindsight. If you're slicing an onion, and slicing toward your hand, and you cut the shit out of your hand needing stitches, the next time you slice an onion you could make the same dumbass mistake if you don't apply hindsight and cut away from your hand.

if your brother-in-law gives you 3 stock tips, you buy every time and lose money, the next time your brother-in-law has a stock tip you will slap the shit out of him, justifiably....hindsight

if you eat fried eggs from a market in Oaxaca and get food poisoning, you wont eat eggs from a market in Oaxaca again. That's hindsight I personally paid to gain

if your wife and her sister are in your living room and they ask you which one of them has the better hair, you turn around and run away. That's both hindsight and survival instinct. Never answer a question like than...even under torture

If you're a GM and you use a process that tells you Martell Webster has a better future than Chris Paul or a process that tells you Meyers Leonard could be an all-star, then for chrissakes you need to use hindsight and shit-can the processes that led to those decisions

in other words, I think saying "hindsight is 20-20" is a useless bromide...sorry

************************************************************

when I listed those draft results I was talking about each draft, in and of itself. I wasn't gaming future events that would spring from a different choice. It was only something like Draymond Green is better than Meyers or Giannis is better than CJ, or Abedayo is better than Zach

now it you guys are saying that in 2013 if the Blazers had taken Giannis rather than CJ then the subsequent years would have been much different, I have no argument with that. For instance, in 2016-17, Portland would have been better than the worst team in the playoffs, so they wouldn't of had the 15th pick to trade for Zach. They would have almost certainly have had the 20th and 26th picks though and a pick in the 20's to add to them

and if Portland had a Dame/Giannis duo this season, they'd be a lot higher than fighting for the 8th seed. Hell, they might have another championship by now

tl/dr

yes info on players then vs now. The gma didnt have the info you now have when they drafted....

sorry i didn't read the rest. Just too long and my opinion is this debate is as useless as going back and assessing the drafts based on today's info to grade the gm. most of the other gm missed on every scenario you play out as well. So i guess there are very few gm’s that will hit your criteria.

We shall agree to disagree on the significance or irrelevance of your dissection of the past drafts.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

Barkley said Collins is “going to be a star for the next 10 to 15 years.“

 

[wizenheimer]

Barkley said Collins is “going to be a star for the next 10 to 15 years.“

 

[oldmangrouch]

tl/dr

yes info on players then vs now. The gma didnt have the info you now have when they drafted....

sorry i didn't read the rest. Just too long and my opinion is this debate is as useless as going back and assessing the drafts based on today's info to grade the gm. most of the other gm missed on every scenario you play out as well. So i guess there are very few gm’s that will hit your criteria.

We shall agree to disagree on the significance or irrelevance of your dissection of the past drafts.

I take it you are not a fan of learning from past mistakes?

 

[Orion Bailey]

I take it you are not a fan of learning from past mistakes?

i am. However the mistake must be clesrly defined. Reviewing past drafts will never be clearly defined because of all the x factors of redoing the draft.
Every gm misses most of the time. Or all drafted players would become all stars.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I've already explained why I listed it before. But in case you missed it: when GM trades away a 1st round draft pick they are implicitly saying what they are trading for has more value than the pick. Olshey gave up a first and when that first rolled around Pascal Siakam, Malik Beasley, Caris LeVert, Dejounte Murray, & Malcolm Brogdon were all available. And the pick, plus Will Barton, were traded for 28 games of Arron Afflalo

that goes directly to "draft evaluation"...it's practically part of the definition

This feels overly simplistic. It might be accurate to say "when GM trades away a 1st round draft pick, they are implicitly saying what they are trading for has more value for that team at that moment than the pick," and even then it's kind of ignoring the value of immediacy. Had Matthews and Afflalo not both been hurt shortly after that trade went down, there's a legitimate possibility that what that trade could have netted would have been more valuable to this team and city than the eventual future draft pick. And even so, that could simply be that said GM is still a good draft evaluator, but a terrible evaluator of the value of the pieces that might come in return.

Point is, there are enough ways you can critique Olshey's drafting acumen without stretching to add poor trades into the mix, and his trade record is worthy of critique all on its own.

 

[oldmangrouch]

This feels overly simplistic. It might be accurate to say "when GM trades away a 1st round draft pick, they are implicitly saying what they are trading for has more value for that team at that moment than the pick," and even then it's kind of ignoring the value of immediacy. Had Matthews and Afflalo not both been hurt shortly after that trade went down, there's a legitimate possibility that what that trade could have netted would have been more valuable to this team and city than the eventual future draft pick. And even so, that could simply be that said GM is still a good draft evaluator, but a terrible evaluator of the value of the pieces that might come in return.

Point is, there are enough ways you can critique Olshey's drafting acumen without stretching to add poor trades into the mix, and his trade record is worthy of critique all on its own.

So, you are suggesting he didn't undervalue Barton and the draft pick - he just overvalued Afflalo? That's an interesting take, but I'm not sure I buy the distinction. It was still a mistake in player evaluation.

 

[Orion Bailey]

So, you are suggesting he didn't undervalue Barton and the draft pick - he just overvalued Afflalo? That's an interesting take, but I'm not sure I buy the distinction. It was still a mistake in player evaluation.

If I remember correctly we were playing great ball for the five or so games after Afflalo came over but before he got injured.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

So, you are suggesting he didn't undervalue Barton and the draft pick - he just overvalued Afflalo? That's an interesting take, but I'm not sure I buy the distinction. It was still a mistake in player evaluation.

It was, I agree. But since the discussion was about Olshey's skill as a draft evaluator, it's a relevant distinction.

 

[speeds]

Could be the MIP next year but I don't see the Siakam comparison. Maybe more Lauri Markkanen with shot blocking?

 

[James lamphear]

How don't compare him to Siakam to different skill set. As much as I like Zach he will always 4 or 5 option on this team on offense. The real reason he started to see minutes on the floor when he was a rookie until now it's was defense not his offense. Has he been consistent in bubble the answer is no. But he hasn't been trash either.

 

[Drttimmy]

How don't compare him to Siakam to different skill set. As much as I like Zach he will always 4 or 5 option on this team on offense. The real reason he started to see minutes on the floor when he was a rookie until now it's was defense not his offense. Has he been consistent in bubble the answer is no. But he hasn't been trash either.

He did inspire some hope as a rookie. Even though it wasn't that long ago, I struggle to remember what it was, because looking at his rookie year stats I see nothing inspiring. There seemed to be something about the Collins/Ed Davis coupling that made Collins look better. Last year, I attributed his pedestrian looking play with playing with inferior players. Stick him with the starters and he'll look different. Guess not. At this point, I was expecting the outside shot to fall a little more frequently, his shot blocking specifically from the backside in help to become a real weapon, and maybe a developed go-to move or two. Like you say, he's not trash, but at this point he's not played up to his draft position either. We need someone like Quick to provide some real insight into Collins work habits. At this point in his career, he needs to be living in a gym full time playing as much basketball as possible. He's got pretty decent length, but generally can't count on his athleticism the way some players can. He needs to improve his skills and instincts and I'm not seeing a ton of movement in that direction since entering the league.

 

[oldmangrouch]

He did inspire some hope as a rookie. Even though it wasn't that long ago, I struggle to remember what it was, because looking at his rookie year stats I see nothing inspiring. There seemed to be something about the Collins/Ed Davis coupling that made Collins look better. Last year, I attributed his pedestrian looking play with playing with inferior players. Stick him with the starters and he'll look different. Guess not. At this point, I was expecting the outside shot to fall a little more frequently, his shot blocking specifically from the backside in help to become a real weapon, and maybe a developed go-to move or two. Like you say, he's not trash, but at this point he's not played up to his draft position either. We need someone like Quick to provide some real insight into Collins work habits. At this point in his career, he needs to be living in a gym full time playing as much basketball as possible. He's got pretty decent length, but generally can't count on his athleticism the way some players can. He needs to improve his skills and instincts and I'm not seeing a ton of movement in that direction since entering the league.

It may be the dementia talking, but it seems to me the flashes he showed as a rookie mostly came when he played the 5.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

So is Wenyen Gabriel the next NEXT Siakam?

 

[Mediocre Man]

So is Wenyen Gabriel the next NEXT Siakam?

He didn’t go to Gonzaga, so no

 

[Mediocre Man]

I’ve not only slept, but also taken multiple naps as well

 

[hoopsjock]

It may be the dementia talking, but it seems to me the flashes he showed as a rookie mostly came when he played the 5.

His rookie year he almost exclusively only played if Ed Davis was in the game at the same time, so barely any minutes at center. Last year was a mix of both.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I see Collins as our Nick Collison. Picked too high, but does useful bench work and, if he stays around long enough, might become beloved.

 

[e_blazer]

I'll never understand why some folks around here always seem to have to have a player to hate.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'll never understand why some folks around here always seem to have to have a player to hate.

m
I Dont hate any players. Just some posters.

 

[B-Roy]

 

[KSF-ERIC]

This is what I’ve been talking about. You can’t fully judge our team yet as long as we’re playing without our starting PF, the next Siakam.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

No one on our team right now can do what Zach can do:

 

[julius]

No one on our team right now can do what Zach can do:

And what's that? Miss all but 11 games over the last 2 years?

 

[Natebishop3]

Is this checking on his progress or did the fucker get hurt again?