The summer of silence stops.... NOW. Mixum Returns!

[mook]

Woops! I forgot about Glen Rice. He started for the 99-00 Lakers at SF, and averaged a whopping 15 ppg. They dumped him after that first ring and never really missed him. In fact, I think they were a lot more formidable without him, since you couldn't plan on exploiting his mediocre defense.

 

[MIXUM]

If we play defense like the Pistons did... we wouldn't need 3 scorers. That was an ELITE defensive team. can you name 1 ELIETE defender on the BLazers??? Please dont say Roy lol.

Thats what I thought. Therefore that is an absolute joke of an argument.

Listen, im not a stat guy. you can give me every stat you want. When i watched the blazers last year i noticed we didnt have a 3rd scorer. when roy and aldridge struggled...we usually lost. when one or the other struggled... it was 50/50 on a win. I don't need a billion stats from Kingspeed or Mook. They are stats and dont mean anything to me. When you watch bball wether its college or nba... you can see what a team is lacking. The Blazers lack a 3rd scorer. Its that simple and starting Batum doesnt fix that but makes it worse.

Again... if Batum is the answer and KP loved our offense at the three... why did we whore ourselves out for Hedo? Answer that before giving me Detroit Piston stats.

 

[MIXUM]

look at this way... cause im sick of hearing "you dont need a good sf"

1. PG - Miller/Blake Are either top options at PG or more like average pgs?

2. Roy - Elite player

3. Batum/Webster.... Can you do better or much better?

4. LA - Becoming Elite hopefully.

5. Oden.... DEFENDER with lots of ? marks. Is he a scorer? No.

Now who's going anywhere or getting replaced? Miller just signed for 2 years, They LOVE batum, and I doubt Oden is getting released. Therefore the only spot you cna upgrade is the three and have batum come off bench.
That was the Hedo plan im assuming.

Therefore you have a an AVG PG. You have a decent SF and a non scoring center. All these teams taht were named had very good offensive production without having a good 3. They did have 3 other elite options. We dont. Therefore thats why we arent contenders. Hedo would have done that with a bonus of adding miller.

You guys are saying you dont need a SF to win a title. Thats true but what you do need then is an elite option at PG or Center if your the Blazers. We dont have either. get it?

 

[mook]

Andre Miller averaged 16 ppg last year.

How many of the championship teams in the past decade had a third option who averaged over 16 ppg?

No third option on any of the Laker championship teams did it.
No third option on the Pistons did it.
No third option on the Heat did it.
No third option on the Spurs did it. (Ginobili did it once in a non-championship year.)
Ray Allen averaged 17.4 ppg.

You are claiming that we have to have an 18-20 ppg third scorer to have playoff success, and yet not one of these championship teams had such a scoring option.

Miller is our third scoring option. He has been a second or third option on offense since he entered the league. I can't understand why you think he'll get here and suddenly stop being so, just because he can't hit three pointers.

 

[STOMP]

cause if he (webby) can play soild defense and hit wide open threes (batum cant)

Martell's D is mediocre on a good day but pretty poor more times then not. I wish this wasn't the case.

Martell's career 3 pnt% is 37% (same as Batum's)

STOMP

 

[MIXUM]

so that means we need to really upgrade at the three

i mean... we have pryz. should have drafted durant

miller
roy
durant
la
pryz


title

 

[Masbee]

Andre Miller averaged 16 ppg last year.

How many of the championship teams in the past decade had a third option who averaged over 16 ppg?

No third option on any of the Laker championship teams did it.
No third option on the Pistons did it.
No third option on the Heat did it.
No third option on the Spurs did it. (Ginobili did it once in a non-championship year.)
Ray Allen averaged 17.4 ppg.

You are claiming that we have to have an 18-20 ppg third scorer to have playoff success, and yet not one of these championship teams had such a scoring option.

Miller is our third scoring option. He has been a second or third option on offense since he entered the league. I can't understand why you think he'll get here and suddenly stop being so, just because he can't hit three pointers.

Do you get the feeling you are talking to yourself?

I already told Mixum that Andre is a legit 3rd option. He didn't even bother responding.

Numbers from last season.

Lakers:
Gasol: 18.9 pts; 22.2 PER; 126 Offensive Rating
Kobe: 26.8 pts; 24.4 PER; 115 Offensive Rating
Odom: 11.3 pts; 16.6 PER; 110 Offensive Rating

Blazers:
Roy: 22.6 pts; 24.0 PER; 123 Offensive Rating
Aldridge: 18.1 pts; 19.1 PER; 115 Offensive Rating
Miller: 16.3 pts; 18.6 PER; 115 Offensive Rating

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2009.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html

Not saying were are a better team than the Lakers - we are not. But we have a better 3rd scorer than they had last season.

 

[MIXUM]

miller is at best an avg 3rd option.... he cant take over a game like hedo, carter, or jefferson

miller is blake by a few more points. ho hum

however..miller has been a blazer killer throughout his career. anyone have an average for miller in his career vs portland? i bet its very good.

 

[STOMP]

so that means we need to really upgrade at the three

hopefully Batum's 2nd year will be an upgrade on his rookie year. Given that he was only 19, barely spoke any english, rail thin, and that quality players performance often takes a significant step forward in their 2nd year there is good reason for this hope.

I'm going to side with the organization and against your feeling that we/the Trailblazers need a different SF. Batum is nice

STOMP

 

[Masbee]

miller is at best an avg 3rd option.... he cant take over a game like hedo, carter, or jefferson

miller is blake by a few more points. ho hum

however..miller has been a blazer killer throughout his career. anyone have an average for miller in his career vs portland? i bet its very good.

Vince Carter sure. RJ? Eh. But, you keep going on about Turk. Do you know what he did last season compared to Miller?

Miller: 16.3 pts; 18.6 PER; 115 Offensive Rating

Hedo: 16.8 pts; 14.8 PER; 107 Offensive Rating

Can't "take over a game"? You do know that Miller carried his Philly team for long stretches in the playoffs last season (21.2pt average - more than Hedo's 15.8avg)? You know that now.

So, let me get this straight: Miller can't "take over a game" like Hedo, but Hedo scored 15.8 in the playoffs, below his average, and Miller scored 21.2 in the playoffs, above his average? Is that about right?

 

[mook]

Do you get the feeling you are talking to yourself?

Pretty much.

Still, though, it's been an interesting exercise. I hadn't really thought before about how so many good teams kind of sucked in the "3rd option" department.

Goes to show how important the star players and defense are in winning a championship.

 

[Denny Crane]

Andre Miller averaged 16 ppg last year.

How many of the championship teams in the past decade had a third option who averaged over 16 ppg?

No third option on any of the Laker championship teams did it.
No third option on the Pistons did it.
No third option on the Heat did it.
No third option on the Spurs did it. (Ginobili did it once in a non-championship year.)
Ray Allen averaged 17.4 ppg.

You are claiming that we have to have an 18-20 ppg third scorer to have playoff success, and yet not one of these championship teams had such a scoring option.

Miller is our third scoring option. He has been a second or third option on offense since he entered the league. I can't understand why you think he'll get here and suddenly stop being so, just because he can't hit three pointers.

Miller wasn't 3rd option on Philly last season. It's dubious he'll score 16 as 3rd option on the Blazers.

Ginobili has only averaged 30 minutes a game once in his career. That might be a factor in his lower PPG.

Other than that, nice research

 

[mook]

Miller wasn't 3rd option on Philly last season.

True. He was actually the second option, if you go by PPG or FGA.

It's dubious he'll score 16 as 3rd option on the Blazers.

If Portland needs him to, I have no doubt he could. I suspect his numbers will be down a little, though, because, as I demonstrated, a lot of really high quality teams don't have third options that score that much.

Ginobili has only averaged 30 minutes a game once in his career. That might be a factor in his lower PPG.

So? I've averaged even less. I don't see your point.

 

[Denny Crane]

True. He was actually the second option, if you go by PPG or FGA.



If Portland needs him to, I have no doubt he could. I suspect his numbers will be down a little, though, because, as I demonstrated, a lot of really high quality teams don't have third options that score that much.

I don't doubt he could, either. He may get his points anyhow.

So? I've averaged even less. I don't see your point.

So I would argue that San Antonio had one helluva 3rd option, and still does.

I think Mixum is right about teams needing 3pt threats on the court. The 6 time champion Bulls had several 3pt threats, including Kukoc, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Hodges, and possibly the first one of modern times, Rory Sparrow.

Even in the days before zone was allowed, teams could effectively run a zone by switching fast enough. I also found Celtics and Lakers basketball of the time really boring because both teams played mostly zone.

Even so, back then the teams focused on getting a good 2 point shot almost every play. These days, the game has devolved to drive and kick for a 3pt shot or pass around the perimeter for a 3pt shot.

Mixum's specific point was shooting over zones. I've seen enough games the past several years to see that teams will go zone and often disrupt the other team. They'll run the zone until the offense proves they can shoot over it.

Even if the D isn't playing zone, they can more easily cheat off of a perimeter player who's not a good outside threat.

I mean, inside/outside game is well known to be a good balance.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I apologize for not foraging through the spew and crap already posted regarding NIXUM....but what does he mean he's back? I thought he (aka ODENISGOD) just got banned??

 

[LOTBfan]

that was the best thread i have read in a month... i feel dirty.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

that was the best thread i have read in a month... i feel dirty.

That's cuz you are, ya Rickroller!!

 

[STOMP]

I think Mixum is right about teams needing 3pt threats on the court. The 6 time champion Bulls had several 3pt threats, including Kukoc, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Hodges, and possibly the first one of modern times, Rory Sparrow.

Even in the days before zone was allowed, teams could effectively run a zone by switching fast enough. I also found Celtics and Lakers basketball of the time really boring because both teams played mostly zone.

Even so, back then the teams focused on getting a good 2 point shot almost every play. These days, the game has devolved to drive and kick for a 3pt shot or pass around the perimeter for a 3pt shot.

Mixum's specific point was shooting over zones. I've seen enough games the past several years to see that teams will go zone and often disrupt the other team. They'll run the zone until the offense proves they can shoot over it.

Even if the D isn't playing zone, they can more easily cheat off of a perimeter player who's not a good outside threat.

I mean, inside/outside game is well known to be a good balance.

I read all this and wonder whether you're aware that the Blazers shot 0.388 from deep... thats 4th best in the league. They were also 9th in the league in 3s made making 7.3 a game. 3 point shooting is a strength not a weakness.

STOMP

 

[mook]

Yup. The big criticism of our team's offense was that it was too slow and took too many jump shots. Miller fixes the speed issue. Miller's penetration and post up ability also fixes a lot of the jump shot problems.

It's not like by adding Miller we suddenly lose all ability to shoot. Of our top 10 players, the only guys I don't want to see ever taking 18 footers are Oden, Przybilla and Miller. Everybody else can spread the floor.

Even with Miller on the court, we'll always have two guys on the court who can hit threes at a reasonable clip.

 

[Wheels]

miller is at best an avg 3rd option.... he cant take over a game like hedo, carter, or jefferson

miller is blake by a few more points. ho hum

however..miller has been a blazer killer throughout his career. anyone have an average for miller in his career vs portland? i bet its very good.

vs. POR 27 33:23 5.3 10.6 50.2 0.2 0.5 30.8 3.1 4.1 75.7 0.8 2.7 3.6 6.4 2.7 1.2 0.1 1.7 13.9

BLAZER KILLER!

 

[MIXUM]

seems like whenever he plays.... he plays well

 

[elcap15]

I read all this and wonder whether you're aware that the Blazers shot 0.388 from deep... thats 4th best in the league. They were also 9th in the league in 3s made making 7.3 a game. 3 point shooting is a strength not a weakness.

STOMP

But you will be replacing Blake ( a good 3pt shooter) with Miller ( a bad 3pt shooter). Will they still be that good with Miller on the floor.

 

[DaRizzle]

But you will be replacing Blake ( a good 3pt shooter) with Miller ( a bad 3pt shooter). Will they still be that good with Miller on the floor.

Ouch, good point:

From 3:

Blake: 42.7% last year
Miller: 28.3% last year

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

But you will be replacing Blake ( a good 3pt shooter) with Miller ( a bad 3pt shooter). Will they still be that good with Miller on the floor.

Miller doesn't take the shot that he knows he can't make...so percentage shouldn't really be effected. (he took 53 3's last year, about 5% of his shots...I'd wager he shoots even fewer than that this year)

The number of threes taken/made likely teamwide will go down a bit just because some percentage of offensive possessions will be taken by MIller. But the Blazers may get more/better looks at 3's when he's out there because the defense is going to need to account for Miller inside (unlike Blake).

 

[DaRizzle]

Miller doesn't take the shot that he knows he can't make...so percentage shouldn't really be effected. (he took 53 3's last year, about 5% of his shots...I'd wager he shoots even fewer than that this year)

Cmon, look at the other side of the coin. Either way Miller goes by shooting a bad % or choosing not to shoot the 3 at all severely reduces the outside threat and defense will be able to sag in.

The number of threes taken/made likely teamwide will go down a bit just because some percentage of offensive possessions will be taken by MIller. But the Blazers may get more/better looks at 3's when he's out there because the defense is going to need to account for Miller inside (unlike Blake).

Roy produced the SAME kickouts to 3 point shooters last year...only one person can drive to the basket at a time.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

Cmon, look at the other side of the coin. Either way Miller goes by shooting a bad % or choosing not to shoot the 3 at all severely reduces the outside threat and defense will be able to sag in.

At the same time we're going to be taking some minutes away from Batum and giving them to Webster who takes and makes a lot of 3s...and the drive comment assumes Miller / Roy are always on the court together...who knows how that will play out.

I think all this stuff may minimally decrease the reliance on the 3 but I don't see it SEVERELY reducing the outside threat.

 

[blazerboy30]

Cmon, look at the other side of the coin. Either way Miller goes by shooting a bad % or choosing not to shoot the 3 at all severely reduces the outside threat and defense will be able to sag in.

I'll gladly take more drive-and-dish threat, postups and alley-oops for Oden instead of somebody standing at the 3pt line that can make a higher percentage.

And the "defense will be able to sag in" is a pretty lame argument. Andre has been very successful in the league for a long time, even with defenses supposedly "sagging in".

 

[DaRizzle]

And the "defense will be able to sag in" is a pretty lame argument. Andre has been very successful in the league for a long time, even with defenses supposedly "sagging in".

And this is an even lamer argument because Miller was playing on a completely different team, assembled completely different than the Blazers.

 

[mook]

Tony Parker can hit threes at only 29%. I guess that makes Blake a better PG than Tony Parker.

Look, I think there are some basic rules of thumb that apply to any upper echelon team's starting lineup:

You can live with one nutcase, but not two.

You can live with one mediocre defender, but not two.

You can live with two decent three point shooters, but not one.

We'll definitely be in that last category this year whenever Miller starts. It's not ideal, but if he were even a decent three point shooter he wouldn't have been available.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Orlando goes to the finals shooting a lot of treys - so now everybody is supposed to follow along. If Orlando loses in the first round, would people still be getting woodies over guys like Hedo and Blake?

Relying on the three is "dumb luck" basketball. It is the equivalent of an NFL team that throws 60 yard passes every down. If Houston didn't teach Blazer fans that lesson - I'm not sure what will.