OT Was Robert E. Lee really all that evil?

[lawai'a]

That's because he's NOT. I guarantee you that half the morons protesting his statue don't even know that he was an officer in the Union Army (US Army) before he was a Confederate. They probably think that he just woke up one day and boom...Confederate.

If they think he's evil, I'd like to know what they think of Oskar Schindler. He actually profited, for a time, off of Jewish slave labor for the Nazi regime, and he was, until Germany's surrender, a member of the Nazi Party.

I don't think Schindler was evil. Nor do I think General Lee is the American Anti-Christ that the Left is making him out to be. Of all the things that they could choose to focus on that were bad about the Civil War, Lee should not be one of them.

i think your perception is wrong. its not that he was evil in and of itself, but that the statues of lee, most of which were erected during the Jim Crow period of our history, represent the force that defended slavery, the confederate army.

 

[lawai'a]

if it was a statue of Lee, out of uniform and representing him as president of Washington college, i doubt the KKK would be there to protest taking it down nor would it likely have been counter protested, hell, no one would have wanted it down in the first place.

 

[MarAzul]

I'm talking about Robert E Lee. I have been reading about him in this thread. He's a bad dude.

It would be preferable to him continuing to lead the South.

Ok.

 

[barfo]

That's because he's NOT. I guarantee you that half the morons protesting his statue don't even know that he was an officer in the Union Army (US Army) before he was a Confederate. They probably think that he just woke up one day and boom...Confederate.

So how do you feel about Benedict Arnold? He also was an officer in the Army before he defected to the enemy. Is he also good?

How about if, say, Gen. John Nicholson, currently in Afghanistan, defects to the Taliban. Would you be in favor of putting up statues of him?

Lee probably wasn't evil personally. But he fought against the United States.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

i think your perception is wrong. its not that he was evil in and of itself, but that the statues of lee, most of which were erected during the Jim Crow period of our history, represent the force that defended slavery, the confederate army.

Or honor. Lee was one of the great military leaders of his time, prior to the civil war. A war hero in previous wars. In those times, there was more allegiance to state than to country. We were the United States, not a big country but actual united states. He saw it as his duty to defend his state.

Most of the people from the South that I've seen write about their feelings about the flag and statues say that race has nothing to do with their POV. It's about pride to them - being proud to be from the South.

Senators and congressmen who had the confederate flag on the wall in their offices quite recently (maybe until recently) are ones who are denouncing the KKK and neo nazis (etc.). If these extreme groups mattered, or these elected leaders felt the flag was about race, I see no reason why they wouldn't come out and say so.

Clearly for some people, the flag represents something else. This is the debate, and a fair one.

 

[Denny Crane]

So how do you feel about Benedict Arnold? He also was an officer in the Army before he defected to the enemy. Is he also good?

How about if, say, Gen. John Nicholson, currently in Afghanistan, defects to the Taliban. Would you be in favor of putting up statues of him?

Lee probably wasn't evil personally. But he fought against the United States.

barfo

You parrot talking points quite well.

This is the spin that's on TV the past couple of days.

Have any original thoughts?

 

[barfo]

You parrot talking points quite well.

This is the spin that's on TV the past couple of days.

Have any original thoughts?

Really? The TV speculated on the defection of Gen. Nicholson to the Taliban? I'd be interested to know what show you saw that on, it sounds like a good one!

barfo

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Ok.

I was joking. You know, like someone here wants the President dead as it is preferable to him being President?

 

[Denny Crane]

Really? The TV speculated on the defection of Gen. Nicholson to the Taliban? I'd be interested to know what show you saw that on, it sounds like a good one!

barfo

The whole "no moral equivalency between the two" bit is spin. Your analogy notwithstanding.

The US flag flew over the country for nearly a century of slavery.

Washington was a traitor to his country (England). He fought for a new country that had lawful slavery, while the country he defected from had outlawed it several decades earlier. He owned slaves and didn't free any (or maybe a very small number).

Even after the Civil War, statues were erected in the victorious North and in D.C. The United States (it was one nation at that point) erected statues to a traitor?

This is yet another laughable bit of spin by the media and those who are duped by it.

 

[Sedatedfork]

I will be honest. Like Denny, I don't really care if the statues stay or go. However, I can understand how some or even many might feel as though it glorifies the South and its system of slavery during and before the Civil War. And if they want them down, that's perfectly fine with me. In fact, maybe they are right. What I don't understand is the willingness of some to argue with any conviction for their continued presence. Like, why do you care?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[barfo]

The whole "no moral equivalency between the two" bit is spin. Your analogy notwithstanding.

The US flag flew over the country for nearly a century of slavery.

Yes, and? I'm not sure I see your point. I didn't deny that slavery existed in the US.

Washington was a traitor to his country (England).

Are there a lot of statues of Washington in England? [I googled it - there is one.]

He fought for a new country that had lawful slavery, while the country he defected from had outlawed it several decades earlier. He owned slaves and didn't free any (or maybe a very small number).

Yeah, so? I wasn't suggesting Washington didn't own slaves.

Even after the Civil War, statues were erected in the victorious North and in D.C. The United States (it was one nation at that point) erected statues to a traitor?

Yes we did.

This is yet another laughable bit of spin by the media and those who are duped by it.

Not sure what you are saying is spin? The idea that Lee fought against the US? He did, it's a fact.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

LOL at the weak sauce, barfo.

You posted that all that stuff matters somehow, then you post your agreement with my points.

Fine by me. We can agree that the spin that there is no moral equivalence between Washington and Lee is utter bullshit.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[barfo]

LOL at the weak sauce, barfo.

You posted that all that stuff matters somehow, then you post your agreement with my points.

Fine by me. We can agree that the spin that there is no moral equivalence between Washington and Lee is utter bullshit.

I'm still a little confused as to why you thought I made some argument about moral equivalence between Washington and Lee, when I never mentioned Washington at all?

You wouldn't have been making strawmen again, would you?

barfo

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Look, I'm English, I don't give a shit about George Washington. But are the statues of George Washington celebrating him AS A SLAVE OWNER? Then they need to come down. Are the celebrating him as a founder of the USA? Okay, they can stay. Now, are the statues of Robert E. Lee celebrating him as a FIGHTER FOR THE CONFEDERACY? They can come down. Are they on his descendants' private property as reminders of their flawed ancestors? Fine, keep 'em.

The VAST MAJORITY of the statues of people like Lee and Jackson were always intended as a warning to black people not to get uppity. That's why white people liked 'em. Heritage my ass. You think Jeffrey Dahmer's family is going to be putting up statues to him?

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm still a little confused as to why you thought I made some argument about moral equivalence between Washington and Lee, when I never mentioned Washington at all?

You wouldn't have been making strawmen again, would you?

barfo

Not a straw man.

You are paroting the talking points in the media and are making an argument about moral equivalence. Why statue of one deserves to stand while the other must be removed. If that's not about moral equivalence, feel free to actually correct what you are talking about.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Also: is there anyone in the world who thinks Donald Trump is the person to go to about (a) history and (b) art?

 

[Denny Crane]

Look, I'm English, I don't give a shit about George Washington. But are the statues of George Washington celebrating him AS A SLAVE OWNER? Then they need to come down. Are the celebrating him as a founder of the USA? Okay, they can stay. Now, are the statues of Robert E. Lee celebrating him as a FIGHTER FOR THE CONFEDERACY? They can come down. Are they on his descendants' private property as reminders of their flawed ancestors? Fine, keep 'em.

The VAST MAJORITY of the statues of people like Lee and Jackson were always intended as a warning to black people not to get uppity. That's why white people liked 'em. Heritage my ass. You think Jeffrey Dahmer's family is going to be putting up statues to him?

He was a slave owner. He fought to establish a country of slavery.

Typically, statues are erected to celebrate the things the person did. For establishing the country and peaceful (until 2016) transition from one administration to another, being a war hero, Washington gets statues. For being a war hero, a man of honor, the man who made peace at the end of the Civil War, for defending the people against Sherman (who burned farms to the ground across the South), Lee got his statues erected.

Nazis built the concentration camps. Those weren't razed at the end of the war or since. The reasons these things stand change over time.

 

[barfo]

Not a straw man.

You are paroting the talking points in the media and are making an argument about moral equivalence. Why statue of one deserves to stand while the other must be removed. If that's not about moral equivalence, feel free to actually correct what you are talking about.

You seem confused. Maybe that rock you are pushing up the hill is feeling a bit heavier today?

Feel free to go back and read my posts if you actually want to know what they say.

barfo

 

[Rastapopoulos]

He was a slave owner. He fought to establish a country of slavery.

Yes, he was a slave owner. But did he fight to establish a COUNTRY OF SLAVERY? That was the whole point? So the constitutions was just "all white people must be allowed to own black people otherwise what's the point" I feel like if that's true then (a) more kids need to be taught that, and (b) fine, bring down the fucking Washington statues too.

Isn't it amazing how Trump has brought about a complete reversal of the Reagan "Shining City On A Hill" stuff? Now Trump's method is to say "we're just as shitty as the rest of them, in fact, we may be worse!" It's sort of refreshing. Maybe at this rate when the US crumbles nobody will miss it.

Typically, statues are erected to celebrate the things the person did.

So now we DON'T celebrate what they did, they can be UN-erected? Fine by me!

 

[Denny Crane]

So how do you feel about Benedict Arnold? He also was an officer in the Army before he defected to the enemy. Is he also good?

How about if, say, Gen. John Nicholson, currently in Afghanistan, defects to the Taliban. Would you be in favor of putting up statues of him?

Lee probably wasn't evil personally. But he fought against the United States.

barfo

These are talking points from TV and other lefty sources.

Especially the bolded part.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/...e-lee-george-washington-thomas-jefferson.html

Mr. Trump’s comments drew strongly negative reactions on Twitter from many historians, who condemned his “false equivalence” between the white nationalists and the counterprotesters.

But “where does it stop?” — and what counts as erasing history — is a question scholars and others have asked, in much more nuanced ways, as calls have come to remove monuments not just to the Confederacy, but to erstwhile liberal heroes and pillars of the Democratic Party like Andrew Jackson (a slave owner who, as president, carried out Native American removal) and Woodrow Wilson (who as president oversaw the segregation of the federal bureaucracy).​

http://www.thedailybeast.com/donald...ce-between-george-washington-and-robert-e-lee

Donald Trump’s Immoral Equivalence Between George Washington and Robert E. Lee

-- Plus the 24/7 TV nonsense making the same claims.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, he was a slave owner. But did he fight to establish a COUNTRY OF SLAVERY? That was the whole point? So the constitutions was just "all white people must be allowed to own black people otherwise what's the point" I feel like if that's true then (a) more kids need to be taught that, and (b) fine, bring down the fucking Washington statues too.

In terms maybe you can understand. Without any filter.

 

[Denny Crane]

Interesting tidbit

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...r-robert-e-lee-statue/?utm_term=.460059021617

There is little polling of public opinion over what to do with Confederate monuments. An NPR/PBS surveyconducted on Monday and Tuesday by Marist College found that 62 percent said statues honoring Confederate leaders should remain as a historical symbol; 27 percent said they should be removed because they are offensive to some people.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

So, presumably Denny would be fine with this:

because, (a) it's not a person, and (b) it's in FUCKING MONTANA, so there's not even a pretense of it celebrating the state's heritage?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

In terms maybe you can understand. Without any filter.

Isn't it cute when Denny thinks he's got a point? It's kind of like when a kindergartener thinks they've made great art.

 

[barfo]

In terms maybe you can understand. Without any filter.

It is somewhat believable that Trump learned what he knows about history from looking at statues.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Isn't it cute when Denny thinks he's got a point? It's kind of like when a kindergartener thinks they've made great art.

Isn't it cute when Rasta is hoisted by his own petard?

 

[Denny Crane]

It is somewhat believable that Trump learned what he knows about history from looking at statues.

barfo

They made this for you!