What are your beliefs on religion, god?

[magnifier661]

You'll be typing those two words a lot.

You should take some of the advice. Still waiting on your rebuttle on the eternal matter concept.

And at least I said I could agree with his statement. Obviously your thick headedness can't ever admit you are mistaken

 

[crowTrobot]

But there are agendas in Science. We observe, but we hope for certain outcomes.

true, but hope is not faith. in fact hope implies faith is absent.

 

[Denny Crane]

You should take some of the advice. Still waiting on your rebuttle on the eternal matter concept.

And at least I said I could agree with his statement. Obviously your thick headedness can't ever admit you are mistaken

I've corrected myself at least twice in this thread. About "sortof plasma" and "count to infinity."

 

[magnifier661]

true, but hope is not faith. in fact hope implies faith is absent.

If i hope I win the lottery; then utilize odds, by purchasing enough tickets to win; does that guarantee a win?

 

[magnifier661]

I've corrected myself at least twice in this thread. About "sortof plasma" and "count to infinity."

Sort of plasma is just as wrong as saying plasma. The matter must always exist for your concept to be valid. Sorry, there is no way around it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Sort of plasma is just as wrong as saying plasma. The matter must always exist for your concept to be valid. Sorry, there is no way around it.

I don't think anyone but you didn't get my meaning. I corrected it for your benefit.

 

[magnifier661]

I had a pesonal conversation with TripTango. He said something very eloquently to me. He said "In the beginning, there was energy". Then he went on further saying "I call it energy, you call it God"

I may disagree with his idea that there is no God, but that was about the best answer I ever got from someone that doesn't believe God. He believes in eternity, just not an intelligence that's eternal

 

[Further]

Mags, I don't believe that any of this proves or disproves God. So don't go looking for that in this post. But, I thought I would try a different way of explaining before and after the big bang. This is not my forte, so hopefully I don't fall on my face trying to explain something that I hardly grasp.

There are many different types of universes, but by measuring those background echo's from the big bang, theoretical physicists were able to determine that the universe we reside in is a flat universe. This is important because in a flat universe, all positives and negatives add up to zero. So, matter and anti-matter would add up to zero, positive and negative charges add up to zero, and so on.

The reason this matters is because when there is no big bang (I use that phrasing instead of before the big bang, because before and after only happen during time) the natural state is that zero and not zero would both be occurring. So the natural state of “nothing” (which is not nothing as we perceive it, but a different existence outside of our laws of physics) is to be both zero and not zero and then there is the big bang. Everything now exists.

 

[magnifier661]

Mags, I don't believe that any of this proves or disproves God. So don't go looking for that in this post. But, I thought I would try a different way of explaining before and after the big bang. This is not my forte, so hopefully I don't fall on my face trying to explain something that I hardly grasp.

There are many different types of universes, but by measuring those background echo's from the big bang, theoretical physicists were able to determine that the universe we reside in is a flat universe. This is important because in a flat universe, all positives and negatives add up to zero. So, matter and anti-matter would add up to zero, positive and negative charges add up to zero, and so on.

The reason this matters is because when there is no big bang (I use that phrasing instead of before the big bang, because before and after only happen during time) the natural state is that zero and not zero would both be occurring. So the natural state of “nothing” (which is not nothing as we perceive it, but a different existence outside of our laws of physics) is to be both zero and not zero and then there is the big bang. Everything now exists.

I actually like what you are saying, but it still gives me the same pressing question. You wrote "but a different existence outside of our laws of physics". This is the missing piece. What is this existence? Is it God, energy, beings from another universe, etc?

 

[Further]

I actually like what you are saying, but it still gives me the same pressing question. You wrote "but a different existence outside of our laws of physics". This is the missing piece. What is this existence? Is it God, energy, beings from another universe, etc?

For me, “what is this existence” is just the laws of nature, not our nature, but of the bigger non-universe nature. For you, God. As I have said much earlier in this thread, I cannot prove or disprove god, and that task will most likely always be futile. but that does not mean that we can't prove or disprove other things that may be part of the belief structure of a particular god or religion.

I don't ever try and talk people out of believing in god. I do however try and get them to believe in the rules of science and to appreciate what science can teach us. You do not seem to be extremely dogmatic in your beliefs, you believe in god, but not in the earth being only 6k years old. I think you also said you don't believe man and ape have a common ancestor. This is something that could be addressed even if we never touch on god. (not now)

Here is what I know. I love the Blazers, you love the Blazers, and Denny Crane loves to be right. Outside of that, I think it’s good that we have these discussions even if we don’t have a final answer. In this thread, I along with Trip, Denny, Crow and others have been trying to explain the scientific view on ‘everything’, but the problem is that not even Krauss (perhaps Hitchens does) really understands all of it because of the nature of science, we ask questions that we don’t know answers too. We try and formulate a most likely scenario but remain ready to throw it all away the instance better information contradicts our scenario.

 

[tlongII]

I would like to know how a discussion of the historical accuracy of the bible evolved into a discussion of the Big Bang theory?


I'm not sure I should have used the word "evolved" in the above sentence though.

 

[magnifier661]

I would like to know how a discussion of the historical accuracy of the bible evolved into a discussion of the Big Bang theory?


I'm not sure I should have used the word "evolved" in the above sentence though.

Denny started ranting about how right he was! Then used the earth isn't 6,000 years old crap; knowing I don't believe that! Hahaha

 

[magnifier661]

For me, “what is this existence” is just the laws of nature, not our nature, but of the bigger non-universe nature. For you, God. As I have said much earlier in this thread, I cannot prove or disprove god, and that task will most likely always be futile. but that does not mean that we can't prove or disprove other things that may be part of the belief structure of a particular god or religion.

I don't ever try and talk people out of believing in god. I do however try and get them to believe in the rules of science and to appreciate what science can teach us. You do not seem to be extremely dogmatic in your beliefs, you believe in god, but not in the earth being only 6k years old. I think you also said you don't believe man and ape have a common ancestor. This is something that could be addressed even if we never touch on god. (not now)

Here is what I know. I love the Blazers, you love the Blazers, and Denny Crane loves to be right. Outside of that, I think it’s good that we have these discussions even if we don’t have a final answer. In this thread, I along with Trip, Denny, Crow and others have been trying to explain the scientific view on ‘everything’, but the problem is that not even Krauss (perhaps Hitchens does) really understands all of it because of the nature of science, we ask questions that we don’t know answers too. We try and formulate a most likely scenario but remain ready to throw it all away the instance better information contradicts our scenario.

I love Denny, trip and everyone else here. I love this debating. I'm not taking anything personal

 

[magnifier661]

Oh and tlong; Jesus loves you!

 

[TripTango]

I had a pesonal conversation with TripTango. He said something very eloquently to me. He said "In the beginning, there was energy". Then he went on further saying "I call it energy, you call it God"

ACTUALLY, I said "you give the energy a name and a personality". Subtle, but important difference there.

Obviously, whatever happened at the Big Bang was unlike anything that we've experienced directly in human history. Our existing scientific toolbox may not be capable yet (or ever) of explaining all aspects of the event. The details are mysterious, but then so were lightning storms in the eyes of the cavemen. I love the mysteries, and I love the unknowns -- I just don't feel the need to fill in all the blanks with a magic man watching from the clouds.

 

[magnifier661]

ACTUALLY, I said "you give the energy a name and a personality". Subtle, but important difference there.

Obviously, whatever happened at the Big Bang was unlike anything that we've experienced directly in human history. Our existing scientific toolbox may not be capable yet (or ever) of explaining all aspects of the event. The details are mysterious, but then so were lightning storms in the eyes of the cavemen. I love the mysteries, and I love the unknowns -- I just don't feel the need to fill in all the blanks with a magic man watching from the clouds.

Correction! Mr. Gray Bearded Magic Man to you g

 

[TripTango]

Here is what I know. I love the Blazers, you love the Blazers, and Denny Crane loves to be right. Outside of that, I think it’s good that we have these discussions even if we don’t have a final answer. In this thread, I along with Trip, Denny, Crow and others have been trying to explain the scientific view on ‘everything’, but the problem is that not even Krauss (perhaps Hitchens does) really understands all of it because of the nature of science, we ask questions that we don’t know answers too. We try and formulate a most likely scenario but remain ready to throw it all away the instance better information contradicts our scenario.

Word -- well put.

 

[TripTango]

Correction! Mr. Gray Bearded Magic Man to you g

Maybe your dude's beard is gray. My dude's beard is golden and sparkly.

 

[TripTango]

Sooooooo I think our work here is done. I'm heading home.

 

[magnifier661]

Maybe your dude's beard is gray. My dude's beard is golden and sparkly.

I thought your dude is Khaaaaaaaaaaan!

 

[tlongII]

Oh and tlong; Jesus loves you!

Jesus at the local taqueria?

 

[magnifier661]

Jesus at the local taqueria?

Yeah told me that you left your 12" fist sex toy in the bathroom

 

[MadeFromDust]

ACTUALLY, I said "you give the energy a name and a personality". Subtle, but important difference there.

Obviously, whatever happened at the Big Bang was unlike anything that we've experienced directly in human history. Our existing scientific toolbox may not be capable yet (or ever) of explaining all aspects of the event. The details are mysterious, but then so were lightning storms in the eyes of the cavemen. I love the mysteries, and I love the unknowns -- I just don't feel the need to fill in all the blanks with a magic man watching from the clouds.

No one claims a magic man in the clouds except skeptics and nonbelievers strawmenning theists.

Theists believe there is a being and a reality that transcends this universe and our senses that created this world, as well as all of our unique attributes. We as Christians believe that being is revealed in the biblical prophets and ultimately in the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. If you want to discuss the evidence for Christianity I would be happy to discuss that, but I tend to look at the problems of non-theism. Evolution is a mechanism for survival and if we merely evolved by a happen of chance, then how can we know that we evolved in such a way that we are perceptive to all forms of ultimate reality? Not all animals share our senses and we don't have the amazing senses that some animals possess, how can we even trust anything around us if we are just mere self-replicating organic machines meant for survival and nothing more?

Like I said, I believe biblical Christianity fits the world we live in like a glove. In a world of pain, loss and suffering, that God would come down to suffer with us and for us in order to ultimately redeem us and bring us back to Him makes sense to me and is an amazing act of grace. It's almost like this is God's story being played out. I was thinking that if it's true that God exists in a higher dimension than our three dimensional world, then Him being able to create a three dimensional universe is not something inconceivable. We give birth to two-dimensions all the time like books and movies and cartoons and every type of media or entertainment we invent. There is no question that we are utterly unique in the world as human beings. I tend to think there would be more to things than some random cosmic accident.

 

[tlongII]

No one claims a magic man in the clouds except skeptics and nonbelievers strawmenning theists.

Theists believe there is a being and a reality that transcends this universe and our senses that created this world, as well as all of our unique attributes. We as Christians believe that being is revealed in the biblical prophets and ultimately in the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. If you want to discuss the evidence for Christianity I would be happy to discuss that, but I tend to look at the problems of non-theism. Evolution is a mechanism for survival and if we merely evolved by a happen of chance, then how can we know that we evolved in such a way that we are perceptive to all forms of ultimate reality? Not all animals share our senses and we don't have the amazing senses that some animals possess, how can we even trust anything around us if we are just mere self-replicating organic machines meant for survival and nothing more?

Like I said, I believe biblical Christianity fits the world we live in like a glove. In a world of pain, loss and suffering, that God would come down to suffer with us and for us in order to ultimately redeem us and bring us back to Him makes sense to me and is an amazing act of grace. It's almost like this is God's story being played out. I was thinking that if it's true that God exists in a higher dimension than our three dimensional world, then Him being able to create a three dimensional universe is not something inconceivable. We give birth to two-dimensions all the time like books and movies and cartoons and every type of media or entertainment we invent. There is no question that we are utterly unique in the world as human beings. I tend to think there would be more to things than some random cosmic accident.

Biblical Christianity fits the world we live in like a glove? Seriously? That couldn't be further from the truth in my opinion.

 

[TripTango]

No one claims a magic man in the clouds except skeptics and nonbelievers strawmenning theists.

Of course not -- NOW. Back in the day it was the clouds, today it's "other dimensions". Who knows where you will hide your magic man next!

 

[TripTango]

Biblical Christianity fits the world we live in like a glove? Seriously? That couldn't be further from the truth in my opinion.

Like a glove.

 

[Eastoff]

Of course not -- NOW. Back in the day it was the clouds, today it's "other dimensions". Who knows where you will hide your magic man next!

"Back in the day they hid their god in other dimensions, we've explored them all. Now we know he is a time traveler from the past!" -the future.

 

[crowTrobot]

Evolution is a mechanism for survival and if we merely evolved by a happen of chance, then how can we know that we evolved in such a way that we are perceptive to all forms of ultimate reality? Not all animals share our senses and we don't have the amazing senses that some animals possess, how can we even trust anything around us if we are just mere self-replicating organic machines meant for survival and nothing more?

this is an interesting topic in itself, but given that you don't think we are just the the product of evolution it's also moot. if there is something more to reality that we aren't able to sense you would obviously have to say it is because god intended us to be that way. god apparently likes to cheat at hide and seek.

Like I said, I believe biblical Christianity fits the world we live in like a glove. In a world of pain, loss and suffering, that God would come down to suffer with us and for us in order to ultimately redeem us and bring us back to Him makes sense to me and is an amazing act of grace. It's almost like this is God's story being played out.

are you saying because the christian redemption narrative makes sense to you and moves you emotionally, that is evidence it must be true? if so, the end of Jedi must be true for me (sans Ewoks).

I was thinking that if it's true that God exists in a higher dimension than our three dimensional world, then Him being able to create a three dimensional universe is not something inconceivable. We give birth to two-dimensions all the time like books and movies and cartoons and every type of media or entertainment we invent.

you're just arguing for the possible existence of a higher dimensional alien here, not an omnipotent god.

There is no question that we are utterly unique in the world as human beings.

aspects of human cognizance and behavior exist in reduced capacity elsewhere in the animal kingdom, so 'utterly' is probably overstating things a bit.

I tend to think there would be more to things than some random cosmic accident.

false dichotomy. a god-free universe doesn't have to be random or accidental.

 

[TripTango]

"Back in the day they hid their god in other dimensions, we've explored them all. Now we know he is a time traveler from the past!" -the future.

"And we even know his name, thanks to recovered fragments of ancient holy images (referred to as 'movies' by people at the time) captured by actual eyewitnesses! Behold, an excerpt from the first Book of Zemeckis. Glory to McFly!"

 

[magnifier661]

"And we even know his name, thanks to recovered fragments of ancient holy images (referred to as 'movies' by people at the time) captured by actual eyewitnesses! Behold, an excerpt from the first Book of Zemeckis. Glory to McFly!"

Okay this is funny! Kudos!!!