OT Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.

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SlyPokerCat said:
Yet the earned income tax credit has a massive rate of being wrong.

And as I already stated. Even though Intuit lobbies, there are multiple free to file programs through the IRS website for low income folks to file free.
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My proposal had nothing to do with being free.
And the fact they they are getting it wrong very often supports my position that the system should be streamlined.
 
Phatguysrule said:
What I said was:


Again, you've changed what I said in order to make it easier for you to argue against it...
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What information do they have to tell that I have more money than a single mom of 3? I'm curious of your thought process here.
 
Phatguysrule said:
My proposal had nothing to do with being free.
And the fact they they are getting it wrong very often supports my position that the system should be streamlined.
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Run for congress and simplify it. I believe in you.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I don't know. You're apparently not talking about the same person I am.
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Come on now. Explain how the IRS can determine someone has more money than another outside of their personal income tax return for that year. You can use any examples of persons.

My bad it wasn't 3 kids but 3 jobs. And she has to have at least 1 kid as a mom.

Still. Explain.
 
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SlyPokerCat said:
Come on now. Explain how the IRS can determine someone has more money than another outside of their personal income tax return for that year. You can use any examples of persons.

My bad it wasn't 3 kids but 3 jobs. And she has to have at least 1 kid as a mom.

Still. Explain.
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A person working 3 jobs, making $15k per year at each, probably doesn't have a trust fund.
 
Phatguysrule said:
A person working 3 jobs, making $15k per year at each, probably doesn't have a trust fund.
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People can have multiple w-2s for many reasons. Some include only working part time jobs. Maybe they teach Zumba classes at multiple gyms. Maybe they recently retired and are doing this part time. Perhaps they own multiple corporations and pay themselves little wages out of those corporations. Maybe they previously won the lottery and just do part time jobs now. They could be getting alimony and child support.

That doesn't tell them anything for their wealth.
 
Phatguysrule said:
A person working 3 jobs, making $15k per year at each, probably doesn't have a trust fund.
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Yes, but the $7B in her account at Cayman National Bank Ltd is a bit of a red flag.

barfo
 
These new tax auditors will hit the small evaders because they know collectively it ads up to a significant amount and without much of a fight.
They will be on power trips like many were during depression going after people homes and such. But going after the wealthy isnt as easy and many are to0 politically connected.
Between the CIA, FBI & IRS they should go after those laundering drug money and cartels both outside and inside the country.
 
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SlyPokerCat said:
People can have multiple w-2s for many reasons. Some include only working part time jobs. Maybe they teach Zumba classes at multiple gyms. Maybe they recently retired and are doing this part time. Perhaps they own multiple corporations and pay themselves little wages out of those corporations. Maybe they previously won the lottery and just do part time jobs now. They could be getting alimony and child support.

That doesn't tell them anything for their wealth.
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Ok
 
Phatguysrule said:
Yeah, nobody suggesting cutting back on audits or getting rid of deductions.

There is a place that we need to increase audits, and it's not on the poor (who are audited about 10x more than everybody else, and SHOULD be audited less), and it's not even the middle class (who are having enough trouble staying middle class as it is). There has been a very clear drop off on audits of millionaires and above, and THAT'S where the audit focus needs to be.

figure3.png


The gains made by auditing millionaires more should be put toward making tax filing for the poor as easy as approving the amount of their return. A simple web page that shows your income and what you are projected to get back based on what you've earned thus far would do it, and would eliminate the need to almost EVER audit the poor.
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Do you have a graph for under 1mill? That would be needed in comparison, to validate your point. Have those also dropped? If so, then there hasn't been a drop in the way you are suggesting.

I could be totally wrong, but i bet that the total revenue loss accumulated by intentional or unintentional, innacurate filings of the middle class, is larger than the loss from the millionaires and above. This could be another potential reason for their focus if the other graph shows no decline in audits.
 
Hoopguru said:
Oh, why dont we go after all the fentanyl that generates billions at the cost of young people lives and really a cancer more detrimental than busting some for tax evasion.
Where is the fucking priorities ,not addressing the biggest issue facing us as a society sickens me personally.
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While I agree with you that the homeless, drugs, and Trumpeteers are some of the biggest problems, the IRS has been ravaged over the last decade and badly need to be modernized. They collect the money to be able do a lot of things that we do as a country and therefore they need to be supported, not shit on like the Republicans have been doing for years.
 
BlazerBender said:
Do you have a graph for under 1mill? That would be needed in comparison, to validate your point. Have those also dropped? If so, then there hasn't been a drop in the way you are suggesting.

I could be totally wrong, but i bet that the total revenue loss accumulated by intentional or unintentional, innacurate filings of the middle class, is larger than the loss from the millionaires and above. This could be another potential reason for their focus if the other graph shows no decline in audits.
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My point wasn't that it had dropped more than others. Just that it had dropped among millionaires since 2016.

And I posted a link showing millionaires and above hide 20% if their holdings from the IRS.

Nobody else has enough holdings to do that, so that's obviously the chunk that should be getting most of our increased attention.

Keep in mind the wealthiest 1% earn about $588k

Accounting for that 20% would boost the treasury by $175b per year.

https://fortune-com.cdn.ampproject....lever-ways-to-hide-their-wealth-from-the-irs/
 
Phatguysrule said:
My point wasn't that it had dropped more than others. Just that it had dropped among millionaires since 2016.

And I posted a link showing millionaires and above hide 20% if their holdings from the IRS.

Nobody else has enough holdings to do that, so that's obviously the chunk that should be getting most of our increased attention.

Keep in mind the wealthiest 1% earn about $588k

Accounting for that 20% would boost the treasury by $175b per year.

https://fortune-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/fortune.com/2021/03/23/americas-richest-have-found-some-clever-ways-to-hide-their-wealth-from-the-irs/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#amp_tf=From %1$s&aoh=16601861445282&csi=1&referrer=https://www.google.com&ampshare=https://fortune.com/2021/03/23/americas-richest-have-found-some-clever-ways-to-hide-their-wealth-from-the-irs/
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But if under 1 mill is dropping too, then it isn't as what seemed to be portrayed by your post, in that the irs is focused more on the middle class. To show that, you would have to show a graph without a decline on the middle class, that indicates the irs is indeed focusing on the middle class more.

I am not debating the rich should be audited more. It just seemed to read as though you think the irs is intentionally targeting the middle class more. If so, Im saying you would need another graph to show that is all.
 
Hoopguru said:
Oh, why dont we go after all the fentanyl that generates billions at the cost of young people lives and really a cancer more detrimental than busting some for tax evasion.
Where is the fucking priorities ,not addressing the biggest issue facing us as a society sickens me personally.
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We have to be able to do more than one thing at a time as a country, we have more than one problem.

And collecting more tax revenue can help pay for drug interdiction/treatment/however you want to address the fentanyl problem.

barfo
 
BlazerBender said:
But if under 1 mill is dropping too, then it isn't as what seemed to be portrayed by your post, in that the irs is focused more on the middle class. To show that, you would have to show a graph without a decline on the middle class, that indicates the irs is indeed focusing on the middle class more.

I am not debating the rich should be audited more. It just seemed to read as though you think the irs is intentionally targeting the middle class more. If so, Im saying you would need another graph to show that is all.
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Pretty sure I posted a link showing the IRS targets the poor far more than the wealthy.

Here is another.

https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/latest/682/
 
Since their are far more people in the $0-$25k group than the wealthy the IRS is spending far too much on the wrong group...

That's a problem IMO. I'd suggest streamlining the process so that it's very rarely needed and we can focus our resources on getting the real money the wealthy owe us.


A recent analysis of FY2021 tax data by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC) at Syracuse University found that the IRS audits low-income families with less than $25,000 in gross receipts at five times the rate of everyone else.
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https://www.warren.senate.gov/overs...geting-of-low-income-americans-for-tax-audits

https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/latest/679/
 
Phatguysrule said:
Since their are far more people in the $0-$25k group than the wealthy the IRS is spending far too much on the wrong group...

That's a problem IMO. I'd suggest streamlining the process so that it's very rarely needed and we can focus our resources on getting the real money the wealthy owe us.



https://www.warren.senate.gov/overs...geting-of-low-income-americans-for-tax-audits

https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/latest/679/
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The IRS averages approximately 300,000 EITC audits per year out of the universe of 25 million. The total universe of tax year 2015 returns in income categories of $1 to $5 million, $5 million to $10 million and $10 million and over was 478,772. It is important to look at the percentage of filers audited in each income category rather than merely the number of audits in each income category.
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One may ask, whether regardless of the audit rates, should the IRS simply audit fewer lower-income taxpayers receiving EITC? Here’s the challenge with doing that: Error rates on tax returns claiming EITC are around 50%, and the improper payment rate involving EITC claims is more than $17 billion each year. There are several factors behind why the improper payment rate is at that level – some of this is that, despite significant guidance provided by the IRS and others, people (including tax preparers) simply misunderstand the complex EITC rules, and others involve misreporting income. Each year, at the start of the tax filing season, IRS participates in EITC Awareness Day events throughout the country in an effort to increase participation by eligible people and enhance the rate of compliance.
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Get rid of the EITC credit and that number would plummet. However, you would have to find another avenue to give these low income folks this money.

https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/irs-audit-rates-significantly-increase-as-income-rises
 
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