Exclusive 2019 Trade Deadline Thread

[Pinwheel1]

I would submit it hasn't been working. Maybe in the regular season it has had a modicum of success but certainly not in the Playoffs. The last time the Blazers won 2 games or more in the 2nd round of a Playoff series was....1999-2000. An occasional 1st round win is nice but you need to at least compete in the 2nd round to have any hopes of being a contender for the most part.

The 'chemistry' isn't doing much.

It still goes back to the same debate we have all been having for 3 years......is the problem in the playoffs Dame and CJ or is the problem the other 10 guys?
Dame sees that the top teams add more and more firepower. So lets see what happens when they give them more. My guess is that in Dame's mind replacing one player for another does not add more fire power.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Stats back it up.

Of all the 2 man lineups that have played at least 100 mins this season, here are the best duos with either Dame/CJ on the court:

CJ + Seth -- +13.9
Dame + Seth -- +11.5
Dame + Nurk -- +9.1
CJ + Nurk -- +8.7
CJ + Jake -- +7.5
Dame + Jake -- +7.3
Dame + Aminu -- +6.0
Dame + Moe-- +5.8
Dame + CJ -- +5.4

So pretty much the worst duo among all the starters. And also one that has played the most minutes together this season.

I don't think anyone is disputing your statement that Dame/CJ don't have great (good?) on-court chemistry; just your suggestion that when Dame is talking about chemistry, that he isn't talking about CJ. We know that they don't maximize each other when out there together, but I don't think he sees it the same way we do.

 

[illmatic99]

I don't think anyone is disputing your statement that Dame/CJ don't have great (good?) on-court chemistry; just your suggestion that when Dame is talking about chemistry, that he isn't talking about CJ. We know that they don't maximize each other when out there together, but I don't think he sees it the same way we do.

Yup. There is no synergy, and until Dame actually plays in a different system with a different coach, or Neil trades CJ, and Dame gets another complementary player, I don't think he'll realize it. Stats are alarming-- Both CJ and Dame are nearly twice as efficient with Nurk on the court rather than each other.

 

[CupWizier]

I don't think anyone is disputing your statement that Dame/CJ don't have great (good?) on-court chemistry; just your suggestion that when Dame is talking about chemistry, that he isn't talking about CJ. We know that they don't maximize each other when out there together, but I don't think he sees it the same way we do.

and who's opinion should we go with? The one that is one of the best players in the NBA or some guys hanging out in a basketball team forum? I think Dame's sentiment extends well beyond just the team as many other analysts and those in the NBA seem to see things similar to Lillard.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Stats back it up.

Of all the 2 man lineups that have played at least 100 mins this season, here are the best duos with either Dame/CJ on the court:

CJ + Seth -- +13.9
Dame + Seth -- +11.5
Dame + Nurk -- +9.1
CJ + Nurk -- +8.7
CJ + Jake -- +7.5
Dame + Jake -- +7.3
Dame + Aminu -- +6.0
Dame + Moe-- +5.8
Dame + CJ -- +5.4

So pretty much the worst duo among all the starters. And also one that has played the most minutes together this season. Obviously some flaws to this stat as there are 3 other guys on the floor, but there's enough sample size here to take away something.

You can't compare CJ and Seth to CJ and Dame. It's not just the other 3 guys on the floor that makes it flawed, but the opposing 5 as well.
Regardless we are talking about what Dame said. I just don't believe he was talking about "role guys who might not be in the league if traded to another team"

 

[Pinwheel1]

I would submit that just because Dame sees it a certain way doesn't mean it is correct. Dame things Stotts is a 'great' coach. Serious misuse of the word.

Agreed players don't make good GM's or coaches. But again I am just commenting on what I believe is Dame's mind set on the subject. I could be wrong though.

 

[SwissBlazer]

I do whatever I want with it, too bad if Quick doesn’t like it. And if the mods have a problem with it, they can delete it.

Too bad you are not sensitive at my argument. But i stand by my point. Journalism is expensive. And if we want it to remain it must be a effort to pay for it.

 

[Hoopguru]

Anyone See Dames comments in HoppsH about the team and competing against the mega talent teams?
He also comments on his feelings about influencing trades and how it's not his way.

I really like his attitude about the team!

 

[Hoopguru]

I’m going to go out there and get to the playoffs and put my best foot forward before I go out there and say (clicks his tongue) ‘Man, you need to go out there and get him instead of him.’ Because that’s not who I am,” Lillard said. “And I don’t care what nobody has to say about it. I’m not going to be the person to say I want to win a ring so bad and all I care about is winning. “Because at the end of the day, I know in my heart I want to win. I want to win a championship for this city, but I’m not willing to put somebody under the bus to do it. That means more to me than saying ‘I won a championship!’ but now this guy has been traded to a bad situation, and now his team don’t like him as much and he might be out of the league in a year. I’m not going to have that. I’m not going to have that on me.”
– via The Athletic

 

[PtldPlatypus]

and who's opinion should we go with? The one that is one of the best players in the NBA or some guys hanging out in a basketball team forum?

It's generally understood that those inside a situation cannot analyze it as objectively as those outside. YMMV.

I think Dame's sentiment extends well beyond just the team as many other analysts and those in the NBA seem to see things similar to Lillard.

Link?

 

[jlprk]

It's generally understood that those inside a situation cannot analyze it as objectively as those outside.

"You can't see the forest from the trees."
Also, if you want to hold your job, you don't tell the boss what to do.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Interesting article. A couple observations.

First, a team this wildly inconsistent trying to sell "continuity" as a strategy? That is somewhere between "facepalm" and "hold your head and weep."

Second, Turner blurts out a hard truth. A team that is supposedly trying to win now should not be drafting "prospects" instead of players. Does Olshey actually have a consistent plan?

 

[illmatic99]

Interesting article. A couple observations.

First, a team this wildly inconsistent trying to sell "continuity" as a strategy? That is somewhere between "facepalm" and "hold your head and weep."

All of that continuity stuff came from Dame. Which is interesting.

Second, Turner blurts out a hard truth. A team that is supposedly trying to win now should not be drafting "prospects" instead of players. Does Olshey actually have a consistent plan?

Someone had to say this. Dame is too selfless -- he cares more about Simons' development than how Simons (or someone instead of him) could help Dame.

Here was what he said about Simons before the season:

 

[CupWizier]

It's generally understood that those inside a situation cannot analyze it as objectively as those outside. YMMV.


Link?

Generally understood? So you would value opinions of some posters in an anonymous forum over Lillard? Lillard seems to me to be one of the most level headed and genuine players in the league, but I have no link to prove it. Just an opinion.

I have no link for things that I have seen on various NBA programming on TV.

 

[TBpup]

Too bad you are not sensitive at my argument. But i stand by my point. Journalism is expensive. And if we want it to remain it must be a effort to pay for it.

Wouldn't be the first time in Portland someone wanted something for free that someone else worked for.

 

[hoopsjock]

Interesting article. A couple observations.

First, a team this wildly inconsistent trying to sell "continuity" as a strategy? That is somewhere between "facepalm" and "hold your head and weep."

Second, Turner blurts out a hard truth. A team that is supposedly trying to win now should not be drafting "prospects" instead of players. Does Olshey actually have a consistent plan?

All of that continuity stuff came from Dame. Which is interesting.


Someone had to say this. Dame is too selfless -- he cares more about Simons' development than how Simons (or someone instead of him) could help Dame.

Here was what he said about Simons before the season:

Who could we have drafted instead of Simons that would be helping us out this year? Gary Trent Jr was supposed to be pretty NBA ready for a one and done 2nd round pick and he hasn't played a single meaningful minute this season.

The Collins pick was definitely on potential versus helping Dame now but Olshey drafted Swanigan as more of a ready now pick and that turned out to be a terrible choice.

I think in the draft you just gotta pick whatever player you think will have the best career. Need should only come into play if two players have a similar grade.

 

[Scalma]

Too bad you are not sensitive at my argument. But i stand by my point. Journalism is expensive. And if we want it to remain it must be a effort to pay for it.

I do pay for it. If I want to share what I pay for, that’s up to me.

 

[illmatic99]

Who could we have drafted instead of Simons that would be helping us out this year? Gary Trent Jr was supposed to be pretty NBA ready for a one and done 2nd round pick and he hasn't played a single meaningful minute this season.

The Collins pick was definitely on potential versus helping Dame now but Olshey drafted Swanigan as more of a ready now pick and that turned out to be a terrible choice.

I think in the draft you just gotta pick whatever player you think will have the best career. Need should only come into play if two players have a similar grade.

We have had 4 first round picks over the past two drafts and only got one contributor to the current roster. And these weren't all shit picks either. 15/20/26 in 2017, and 24 in 2018.

You don't think we could have gotten at least more rotational players for those picks in a trade? This has nothing to do with whom we picked, rather what else we could have done with those picks.

 

[hoopsjock]

We have had 4 first round picks over the past two drafts and only got one contributor to the current roster. And these weren't all shit picks either. 15/20/26 in 2017, and 24 in 2018.

You don't think we could have gotten at least more rotational players for those picks in a trade? This has nothing to do with whom we picked, rather what else we could have done with those picks.

Well Olshey did admit he should've been more aggressive last year with using the pick in a trade (see Mirotic). He has used the pick in the past for a trade when he acquired Plumlee so I am guessing he tried to do the same this year with it. He referred to it as the "Plumlee Model".

This goes back to Dame's point though. Making those type of trades makes the team a little better but who you'd get for the 24th pick still doesn't put you on the same level talent wise as some of those other teams. In the long run it might still end up working better having guys like Collins and Simons versus trading for a guy like Trevor Ariza (or whatever, you get my point).

 

[illmatic99]

Well Olshey did admit he should've been more aggressive last year with using the pick in a trade (see Mirotic). He has used the pick in the past for a trade when he acquired Plumlee so I am guessing he tried to do the same this year with it. He referred to it as the "Plumlee Model".

This goes back to Dame's point though. Making those type of trades makes the team a little better but who you'd get for the 24th pick still doesn't put you on the same level talent wise as some of those other teams. In the long run it might still end up working better having guys like Collins and Simons versus trading for a guy like Trevor Ariza (or whatever, you get my point).

The picks were perfect assets to use in a trade if Dame were scared of getting rid of people already on the team. Hell, if you think about it, they had a lot more value before we made the Collins or Simons' picks but rather as the 10th pick or the 24th pick. You think Collins will fetch a lottery pick now? Will Simons land us another first rounder? I'm completely ignoring the 0 that is Caleb. These are all assets that he lost value on.

He salary dumped Crabbe, and then squandered a trade exception that he said he was one of our best assets. And he salary dumped Noah for nothing. And in two weeks, that trade exception will also expire and more excuses will be made.

All this makes me sad for Dame. Neil doesn't deserve Dame's loyalty.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Who could we have drafted instead of Simons that would be helping us out this year? Gary Trent Jr was supposed to be pretty NBA ready for a one and done 2nd round pick and he hasn't played a single meaningful minute this season.

The Collins pick was definitely on potential versus helping Dame now but Olshey drafted Swanigan as more of a ready now pick and that turned out to be a terrible choice.

I think in the draft you just gotta pick whatever player you think will have the best career. Need should only come into play if two players have a similar grade.

How about Shamet - a guy getting 20 MPG for a Philly team with higher play-off hopes than Portland? Or if you don't see anybody you actually want, trade it for a future pick. One of the few things Olshey seems to be good at is dumpster diving, so why not use that roster spot for a vet instead of a rook who your coach refuses to play? (actually, that's what he should have done with the Leonard pick - but that's another discussion)

As for his failures with Trent and Swanigan - that just proves either our scouts are bozos or Olshey doesn't listen to them. I say that as someone who *liked* the Trent pick - but I was obviously wrong. The difference is that I am not a paid professional talent scout.

 

[illmatic99]

and who's opinion should we go with? The one that is one of the best players in the NBA or some guys hanging out in a basketball team forum? I think Dame's sentiment extends well beyond just the team as many other analysts and those in the NBA seem to see things similar to Lillard.

Dame himself is quoted saying that we don't have the firepower or talent to compete with three other western teams. Can't just ignore that.

 

[RR7]

Dame himself is quoted saying that we don't have the firepower or talent to compete with three other western teams. Can't just ignore that.

It's somewhat telling to me that he mentions OKC. They're not "loadaed" with stars ala GS. They're a big 2 with a very good role playing C. And some decent fitting role players around their big 2.
I'm not trying to manufacture fake controversy between him and CJ, but I know he likely considers himself on Westbrook's level, so it can come across as, with CJ as our #2, we're not good enough, so hopefully chemistry gets us there.

 

[hoopsjock]

The picks were perfect assets to use in a trade if Dame were scared of getting rid of people already on the team. Hell, if you think about it, they had a lot more value before we made the Collins or Simons' picks but rather as the 10th pick or the 24th pick. You think Collins will fetch a lottery pick now? Will Simons land us another first rounder? I'm completely ignoring the 0 that is Caleb. These are all assets that he lost value on.

He salary dumped Crabbe, and then squandered a trade exception that he said he was one of our best assets. And he salary dumped Noah for nothing. And in two weeks, that trade exception will also expire and more excuses will be made.

All this makes me sad for Dame. He doesn't deserve Dame's loyalty.

We were discussing draft picks, not trade exceptions. I'm not going to argue that Olshey has failed to put the best possible team around Dame, because he probably has.

However you can't cherry pick things Olshey didn't do while not accounting for the fact that some of those things are because of Dame's loyalty. Last year we should've traded Ed or Shabazz to get under the cap instead of Vonleh but Dame wanted Ed to stay. The two years prior Dame openly stated to "keep the team together" and not make moves at the deadline. Dame also has shown support of coach Stotts. His close friend is CJ. If you want to contend that Olshey shouldn't be considering Dame's thoughts in personnel decisions fine but you can't say that someone who actually has been loyal to Dame doesn't deserve loyalty back. Olshey may not deserve to keep his job for some poor moves but that doesn't mean that Dame can't appreciate that he's tried to appease him.

As for the picks, once again I'm not arguing that there weren't better options for those picks. However, we don't yet know what Collins and Simons will become so we can't completely dismiss them as wasted picks yet. I am 100% confident that whatever vet we picked up for trading the 24th pick wouldn't have been enough to make us title contenders though.

 

[illmatic99]

It's somewhat telling to me that he mentions OKC. They're not "loadaed" with stars ala GS. They're a big 2 with a very good role playing C. And some decent fitting role players around their big 2.
I'm not trying to manufacture fake controversy between him and CJ, but I know he likely considers himself on Westbrook's level, so it can come across as, with CJ as our #2, we're not good enough, so hopefully chemistry gets us there.

Not to get too pedantic and nitpick because Dame was probably speaking off the cuff, but Paul George is very clearly the #1 in OKC. I think he has a shot at first team all NBA this year over Kawhi/KD/Lebron. Westbrook has fallen off a cliff this year, but he's still better than our #2 (whether that's CJ or Nurk).

Also interested in when these quotes were taken because we have caught up with OKC in the standings-- I don't think they're better than us.

Maybe it's Melo on his mind. He probably still considers him a "star," and he chose OKC and then HOU over POR.

 

[hoopsjock]

How about Shamet - a guy getting 20 MPG for a Philly team with higher play-off hopes than Portland? Or if you don't see anybody you actually want, trade it for a future pick. One of the few things Olshey seems to be good at is dumpster diving, so why not use that roster spot for a vet instead of a rook who your coach refuses to play? (actually, that's what he should have done with the Leonard pick - but that's another discussion)

As for his failures with Trent and Swanigan - that just proves either our scouts are bozos or Olshey doesn't listen to them. I say that as someone who *liked* the Trent pick - but I was obviously wrong. The difference is that I am not a paid professional talent scout.

Shamet is a good example, but as you and I both point out it doesn't really matter because in theory Trent can do most of the same things Shamet does and he hasn't sniffed the court yet.

Shamet is exactly what I'm referring to though. If he was on this team and playing those same 20 minutes per game would that really make that much of a difference to close the talent gap? Even if he was helping the team this year, is that slight bump in productivity to help now better than if Simons turns out to be better in 3 years? Say we traded the 24th pick for Kelly Oubre (just trying to think of a realistic one) at the draft. Is that the type of move that would've vaulted us before the season started into GS and Houston range?

 

[oldmangrouch]

Shamet is a good example, but as you and I both point out it doesn't really matter because in theory Trent can do most of the same things Shamet does and he hasn't sniffed the court yet.

Shamet is exactly what I'm referring to though. If he was on this team and playing those same 20 minutes per game would that really make that much of a difference to close the talent gap? Even if he was helping the team this year, is that slight bump in productivity to help now better than if Simons turns out to be better in 3 years? Say we traded the 24th pick for Kelly Oubre (just trying to think of a realistic one) at the draft. Is that the type of move that would've vaulted us before the season started into GS and Houston range?

True enough. The best case is the Plumlee scenario, and you can't count on something like that happening every time!

 

[hoopsjock]

True enough. The best case is the Plumlee scenario, and you can't count on something like that happening every time!

I'm not a fan of Rondae Hollis-Jefferson and I'm glad we traded that pick but there were a lot of fans at the time that would have wanted to keep him instead of trading him for Plumlee.

 

[dviss1]

As a journalist I am always a bit annoyed by the copy/paste of pay content to websites. Happens to me all the time. I mean, if we still want some coverage why not paying for it? And to be honnest, you can't say the subscription to The Athletic is THAT expensive, isn't it?

We're charged for everything in this country. Everything is expensive. I'm glad @Scalma posted it because I wanted to read and didn't want to pay.

 

[dviss1]

Stats back it up.

Of all the 2 man lineups that have played at least 100 mins this season, here are the best duos with either Dame/CJ on the court:

CJ + Seth -- +13.9
Dame + Seth -- +11.5
Dame + Nurk -- +9.1
CJ + Nurk -- +8.7
CJ + Jake -- +7.5
Dame + Jake -- +7.3
Dame + Aminu -- +6.0
Dame + Moe-- +5.8
Dame + CJ -- +5.4

So pretty much the worst duo among all the starters. And also one that has played the most minutes together this season. Obviously some flaws to this stat as there are 3 other guys on the floor, but there's enough sample size here to take away something.

These numbers are subjective.

Why?

Ask yourself this:

At what point in the game are CJ and Seth on the floor at the same time and who are they matched up against?

No need to answer. They certainly aren't matched up against starters.

Neither are Dame and Seth when they share the floor.

So these numbers are dependent on matchups.

Therefore these numbers alone don't tell the whole story.