Game Thread 2020 Debate Part 3 - Sept 12 (1 Viewer)

[TorturedBlazerFan]

You really think Walmart, Google, Disney, Lucas Films, McDonald's etc don't have more taxable income? There's a ton of money offshore in tax shelters...sort of what came out of the Mueller report...when someone makes 20 million for making a movie...there's taxable income..Damian Lillard has some taxable income...the entertainment industry is decadent with money and waste.

Im not sure, its not about if I think they have more taxable income, because I do, but do they have enough to sustain 300m people?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

corporations are also going to get taxed under her proposal....who knows...what I do know is most of the ultra wealthy titans are screwing the middle class the way it stands and don't care where they can make a buck...not a nationalist in the lot. Political affiliations aside...it's super wealthy that are scooping up tax shelters and perks...we pay for those now in many ways. She wants school teachers to make a living wage...I like that.

Im not sure why we act like school teachers dont get paid...

I googled this but this is what PPS teachers make on average.

$59,845

The average Public School Teacher salary in Portland, OR is $59,845 as of August 27, 2019, but the range typically falls between $52,241 and $69,087.

How much should they get paid?

Thats basically average salary or greater than everyone else.

I have no interest in not paying people, but a single adult IMO should be able to live off of that, now you bring in kids and a spouse the dynamic changes and I understand that, but I dont think Teachers are extremely under paid.

Also with more googling the average salary by education level, makes it look like teachers at least in PPS are about at the average.

I realize that some places teachers make less, I assume some places teachers make more too.

If you want to make everyones pay go up ok, but Im not sure why teachers in particular need a raise.

 

[riverman]

Im not sure why we act like school teachers dont get paid...

I googled this but this is what PPS teachers make on average.

$59,845

The average Public School Teacher salary in Portland, OR is $59,845 as of August 27, 2019, but the range typically falls between $52,241 and $69,087.

How much should they get paid?

Thats basically average salary or greater than everyone else.

I have no interest in not paying people, but a single adult IMO should be able to live off of that, now you bring in kids and a spouse the dynamic changes and I understand that, but I dont think Teachers are extremely under paid.

Also with more googling the average salary by education level, makes it look like teachers at least in PPS are about at the average.

I realize that some places teachers make less, I assume some places teachers make more too.

If you want to make everyones pay go up ok, but Im not sure why teachers in particular need a raise.

So talented educators are attracted to the profession and the quality of education goes up....you want your staff at school to be the Golden State Warriors or the Charlotte Hornets? You get talent for money in every profession.....great talent leaves the profession for obvious reasons. I value great teaching. I also realize the cost of living for couples starting out now is not what it was when I was starting out...the numbers don't match the wages in the middle class at all. It was addressed by all 3 women in the debate.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

So talented educators are attracted to the profession and the quality of education goes up....you want your staff at school to be the Golden State Warriors or the Charlotte Hornets? You get talent for money in every profession.....great talent leaves the profession for obvious reasons. I value great teaching. I also realize the cost of living for couples starting out now is not what it was when I was starting out...the numbers don't match the wages in the middle class at all. It was addressed by all 3 women in the debate.

Well sort of, yeah you want teachers to get paid, but using your example according to hoops hype Miami had the highest salary in 2018/2019 and that did what exactly? Its not just a problem that simply throwing money at will fix. In fact you may end up attracting some of the wrong type of people. I dont want my educators simply in it for the money.

Sure I want great teachers but it seems like just a political talking point to me, because if you question how much teachers are making or look opposed to that, they can say you don't care about the kids, and their future and all that. I get it Teachers are not making bank, but neither are a lot of professions who probably deserve more than they’re getting.

Teachers always get brought up because they have strong unions that put political pressure on politicians and that it sounds good to parents that they want a better education system for our kids. Theres nothing wrong with that, and yeah I want a good education system, but I also dont know what we mean when we say teachers should get a liveable wage, because most of them do. Yeah it may mean living a modest life style, but it can be done...

 

[Lanny]

Does the 1% have enough money? It sounds great but the 1% as wealthy as they are, Im not sure they can support 300m+ people...

Three people have more wealth than 150 Million out of the total population of about 300 Million people.

 

[Lanny]

Figured it was time to start a new debate thread.

Today was the last day to qualify. None of the people on the bubble - Steyer, Gabbard, Gillibrand, Williamson - made it. So there are only 10 in the debate, so it's just 1 night of fun and frolic.

There's still a chance for the above people to make it into the October debate, but for September they are out.

Can't say I'll miss them, because I won't.

The ten debaters: Biden, Booker, Harris, Warren, Buttigieg, Yang, Sanders, Klobuchar, Castro, O'Rourke

barfo

The others should drop out. They're effectively finished.

 

[ABM]

The others should drop out. They're effectively finished.

.....and Joe's just Biden his time.

 

[riverman]

Its not just a problem that simply throwing money at will fix.

Good teachers earn that money....nobody throws money at teachers hoping for success....everytime you buy a movie ticket you're paying for some multi millionaire's private jet....what people don't complain about throwing money at is entertainment....sports franchises....movies...while teachers are being told to become armed guards on public school grounds. Priorities....we are falling behind in education. My daughter works in a dental insurance clinic answering phones makes more than I made teaching for a wage. Good teachers figure out they can work there without correcting homework all evening at home and dealing with your kids. Choices. Had I taken on graduate school debt of about 250k....I could have made about 4 dollars an hour more.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Good teachers earn that money....nobody throws money at teachers hoping for success....everytime you buy a movie ticket you're paying for some multi millionaire's private jet....what people don't complain about throwing money at is entertainment....sports franchises....movies...while teachers are being told to become armed guards on public school grounds. Priorities....we are falling behind in education. My daughter works in a dental insurance clinic answering phones makes more than I made teaching for a wage. Good teachers figure out they can work there without correcting homework all evening at home and dealing with your kids. Choices. Had I taken on graduate school debt of about 250k....I could have made about 4 dollars an hour more.

My kids are home schooled, now I realize thats not for everyone. Im not asking teachers to do anything for “my kids”.

People complain about throwing money at entertainment all the time. The food is too expensive, the tickets too expensive, cable too expensive, etc, etc.

To me you can make an argument that the average means for the middle class should be elevated, I just don't think teachers have it as bad as its portrayed in the political spectrum. They tend to make about average salaries for the schooling they have. -I googled this for like an hour last night so not the best research but everything I found on government websites tended to point towards this. -

If they don't want to teach they simply don't have too. There are others who do want too.

We are falling behind on education but that problem in my opinion isn't solved by just giving teachers unions more money.

 

[riverman]

I just don't think teachers have it as bad as its portrayed in the political spectrum.

you can google all you like and you'll find someone who supports your narrative about teaching...have you ever taught public school? I'm not a politician but I've been a teacher...In asia teachers are as high up in society as doctors..and the results are demonstrable....here we don't have that value system...you can make more money if you have a 90mph fast ball or sell people shit they don't need..education is what makes a country great....entertainment just makes people compulsive consumers if they have the ways and means

 

[barfo]

My kids are home schooled, now I realize thats not for everyone. Im not asking teachers to do anything for “my kids”.

People complain about throwing money at entertainment all the time. The food is too expensive, the tickets too expensive, cable too expensive, etc, etc.

To me you can make an argument that the average means for the middle class should be elevated, I just don't think teachers have it as bad as its portrayed in the political spectrum. They tend to make about average salaries for the schooling they have. -I googled this for like an hour last night so not the best research but everything I found on government websites tended to point towards this. -

If they don't want to teach they simply don't have too. There are others who do want too.

We are falling behind on education but that problem in my opinion isn't solved by just giving teachers unions more money.

Why are your kids home-schooled?

I think you hear a lot about teacher salaries (rather than any other profession) because they are paid by the public, so it's everyone's business how much they get paid, and they are by far the largest group of public employees, so you hear a lot more about teachers than, say, NASA workers.

Saying that teacher pay is 'just giving teachers unions more money' is not exactly an unbiased take.

As for teachers making an average wage for their education level - even if that's so, do you want an average person teaching your kids, or do you want an excellent person?

barfo

 

[Hoopguru]

My wife loved teaching and it was her calling no doubt about it.
The superintendent that was 75 years old was making $150k a year and his home provided rent free. Teachers in that same district were not payed very well as compared to his contribution.
Towards the end of her career class rooms were way to heavy and special need kids were thrown in with regular class’s and not every teacher was able to address their needs, which is to bad.
Teachers should be able to make more than they do but it should be based on performance and tenure.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

you can google all you like and you'll find someone who supports your narrative about teaching...have you ever taught public school? I'm not a politician but I've been a teacher...In asia teachers are as high up in society as doctors..and the results are demonstrable....here we don't have that value system...you can make more money if you have a 90mph fast ball or sell people shit they don't need..education is what makes a country great....entertainment just makes people compulsive consumers if they have the ways and means

I wasnt looking for opinion pieces on my “narrative”, I was looking at factually what do teachers make, and what do other professions make, and what level of education is required, and what the average salary for that level of education is. Results tended to show that teachers were average to slightly above average.

Education is what makes a country great? I mean this is maybe partially true, but theres a lot more that goes into a great country than simply education. No ones saying education and educators are unimportant, or don't deserve to be paid, but just the fact they’re “teachers” doesn't entitle them to simply just “make more money” in my opinion at least.

There are a lot of jobs out there that are important for a society.

Im not sure what me having not taught public school has to do with it. All jobs have stress, everyone think’s they’re under paid and under appreciated for the most part.

 

[calvin natt]

There’s a huge misconception that teachers work like 8-3 and have holidays off and summers etc so they get paid appropriately. When it’s more like 7-4, then work at home and/or weekends to finish off what isn’t done in the classroom. Never mind the sheer critically important work they do with children. Then add on the schooling, the desire we all have to attract top talent, etc. I don’t think anyone is advocating we pay public school teachers $200,000 a year. But I think it’s very reasonable to say they should get near $100,000, they deserve it and it would make college kids think twice about getting into that career vs being an accountant, sales rep, etc. Nothing wrong with those jobs at all, but teaching would be a viable option for many talented young people who just want to make a better living than $50k

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Why are your kids home-schooled?

I think you hear a lot about teacher salaries (rather than any other profession) because they are paid by the public, so it's everyone's business how much they get paid, and they are by far the largest group of public employees, so you hear a lot more about teachers than, say, NASA workers.

Saying that teacher pay is 'just giving teachers unions more money' is not exactly an unbiased take.

As for teachers making an average wage for their education level - even if that's so, do you want an average person teaching your kids, or do you want an excellent person?

barfo

My kids are home schooled because my wife and I dont want to depend on the school system to educate our children. We have the means for her to stay at home be responsible for their education and she has a college education and wants to do it. They’re our kids and our responsibility not the governments.

is any take unbiased? Teachers unions are powerful though bias or not.

Yeah excellent teachers would be great but also then demand higher standards for teachers. Make them all go get doctorates. Simply paying them more does not mean that the level of teaching will just go up in the process. It just means more people will want to do it.

 

[calvin natt]

Raising wages would also give us the chance to raise the bar for better teachers. I also don’t love the whole idea of ‘tenure’ and think there has to be a better way to evaluate performance of teachers. As much respect as i have for teachers, there are some out there that are flat out just riding it out to retirement.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

There’s a huge misconception that teachers work like 8-3 and have holidays off and summers etc so they get paid appropriately. When it’s more like 7-4, then work at home and/or weekends to finish off what isn’t done in the classroom. Never mind the sheer critically important work they do with children. Then add on the schooling, the desire we all have to attract top talent, etc. I don’t think anyone is advocating we pay public school teachers $200,000 a year. But I think it’s very reasonable to say they should get near $100,000, they deserve it and it would make college kids think twice about getting into that career vs being an accountant, sales rep, etc. Nothing wrong with those jobs at all, but teaching would be a viable option for many talented young people who just want to make a better living than $50k

I never said anything about their work hours, or how much they work. Though I probably should put that into consideration when talking about average salaries.
Im not advocating paying them less, a lot of people in the middle struggle though, and many of them probably should make more, not just teachers.

 

[riverman]

No ones saying education and educators are unimportant, or don't deserve to be paid,

You've chosen to homeschool....and you sort of are saying teachers are well paid ...we simply disagree. For a teacher in Nebraska the cost of living is a bit different from the teacher in New York City....The big picture is we need to attract talent to the profession and dump the idea that there are those who "do" and those who "teach"...….which happens...people who suck at their field of expertise can always teach because all in all....it's a thankless job. It's how we ended up where we are.....of all the teachers I had I'd say 3 of them were talented teachers. I'd like to see that change. You can let Louis Montero be your point guard on a budget but if you want to win it all you sign Damian Lillard…...choices....ways and means...I'd rather see us invest in our children's future than another missile or tank. I don't think tenure is helping the cause...too many tenured teachers tend to mail it in without teaching for the next contract.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

You've chosen to homeschool....and you sort of are saying teachers are well paid ...we simply disagree. For a teacher in Nebraska the cost of living is a bit different from the teacher in New York City....The big picture is we need to attract talent to the profession and dump the idea that there are those who "do" and those who "teach"...….which happens...people who suck at their field of expertise can always teach because all in all....it's a thankless job. It's how we ended up where we are.....of all the teachers I had I'd say 3 of them were talented teachers. I'd like to see that change. You can let Louis Montero be your point guard on a budget but if you want to win it all you sign Damian Lillard…...choices....ways and means

Im saying that teachers are making enough to get by which the term used to begin with is a liveable wage. I dont think they get paid “well”, but I dont think that most of the middle and lower class get paid well. They get paid the minimum amount the overlords can get away with and it does suck, but its sucks for a vast majority of people.

Id agree attracting people who want to teach and are talented teachers is a good thing, money can certainly be a part of that. Just in my opinion overall money is tight for a lot of people.

 

[Chris Craig]

There’s a huge misconception that teachers work like 8-3 and have holidays off and summers etc so they get paid appropriately. When it’s more like 7-4, then work at home and/or weekends to finish off what isn’t done in the classroom. Never mind the sheer critically important work they do with children. Then add on the schooling, the desire we all have to attract top talent, etc. I don’t think anyone is advocating we pay public school teachers $200,000 a year. But I think it’s very reasonable to say they should get near $100,000, they deserve it and it would make college kids think twice about getting into that career vs being an accountant, sales rep, etc. Nothing wrong with those jobs at all, but teaching would be a viable option for many talented young people who just want to make a better living than $50k

More like 7-5...even 6. Your right there is a misconception here. Teachers are often sitting at their desks hours after school working. They bring it home too...grading papers, making lesson plans, etc. There are many no school days when the teacher is there working. It is a lot of work, especially with class sizes going up.

 

[Chris Craig]

My kids are home schooled because my wife and I dont want to depend on the school system to educate our children. We have the means for her to stay at home be responsible for their education and she has a college education and wants to do it. They’re our kids and our responsibility not the governments.

is any take unbiased? Teachers unions are powerful though bias or not.

Yeah excellent teachers would be great but also then demand higher standards for teachers. Make them all go get doctorates. Simply paying them more does not mean that the level of teaching will just go up in the process. It just means more people will want to do it.

Why don't you want to depend on the school system? I know you have the means and that is cool you can do that for your kids. I am curious what other reasons you have?

 

[MarAzul]

There are Supplemental plans to add to your Medicare. Why didn’t you get one of those? And there are $0 premium Medicare Advantage plans that would have increased benefits to regular Medicare. For very little money, once you turn 65, assuming you have Medicare, you are in pretty good shape. It’s the people who aren’t working anymore, and are 60, 62 etc years old that are royally screwed. They have no Medicare and buying a plan on their own is a boatload of money.

You don't say!
Take another run at what I posted, it appears you missed a bit.

 

[Chris Craig]

There is a saying, teachers don't go into teaching for the money. They do it because it is their passion. There are good arguments for teachers being paid more. But, there are other issues at hand too in the education system that need to be fixed.

Every year the funding for our schools shrink. The numbers of teachers are dwindling because the money isnt there to pay them. They are laid off. There is no money for supplies and books. Teachers are paying out of pocket as well as parents now.

With less students, class sizes are climbing. There are some teachers with 35- 40 kids in their class. Crowded classrooms make it harder to teacher, make it harder for students to learn. Students benefit from 1 on 1 time and don't get that in large classes. Many students are failing and dropping out because of this.

School buildings are closing because funding is so bad. We can't hire enough staff to keep them open. Every year I see a school close. Our education system is falling apart because we aren't investing in our kids. They are the future.

 

[MarAzul]

She wants school teachers to make a living wage..

Sound good, hey!
But check it out, through out your own State. In most of the small towns though out the state, the schools teachers are the best paid of the residents. Well except perhaps the dentists.
The retired teachers are even in better shape compared to the other retirees. Go to some of the small towns where things are so cheap, it has mostly retirees, but teachers don't retire there. Bandon it pretty popular though.

 

[riverman]

In most of the small towns though out the state, the schools teachers are the best paid of the residents.

the manager of your local fast food franchise probably makes more than your kid's teacher. My son's classmate in a small town dropped out of school and went into his parents fast food biz.....makes 25 k more a year than my son who graduated with honors and works in his field handling medical insurance accounts. In all fairness that kid would have been a terrible, lazy teacher if he'd chosen that path.

 

[MarAzul]

the manager of your local fast food franchise probably makes more than your kid's teacher. My son's classmate in a small town dropped out of school and went into his parents fast food biz.....makes 25 k more a year than my son who graduated with honors and works in his field handling medical insurance accounts. In all fairness that kid would have been a terrible, lazy teacher if he'd chosen that path.

Fast Food!
Wow, there are none of those in Bandon. No burgerking, Mac D... Can you imagine running one of those? Hell, I never go to one. No I don't think the local school teachers in Bandon are looking up to that gang. Or in Coquille, Toledo....

 

[riverman]

Fast Food!
Wow, there are none of those in Bandon. No burgerking, Mac D... Can you imagine running one of those? Hell, I never go to one. No I don't think the local school teaches in Bandon are looking up to that gang. Or in Coquille, Toledo....

This kid owns a Subway....no competition...place makes a fortune. I don't eat fast food but they get a lot of students and teacher's lunch money daily. I brown bagged my lunch when I was working....Americans buy food before they buy almost anything else...to the point where overeating has pretty much become exclusively an American disease...diabetes and heart failure is rare in Asian countries. Here you can literally eat yourself to death

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Why don't you want to depend on the school system? I know you have the means and that is cool you can do that for your kids. I am curious what other reasons you have?

A few things I guess. My experience in public schools was negative, teachers that didnt care, teachers that didnt make learning interesting, classrooms that were crowded. My wife was home schooled as were her siblings and she had good experiences with it and so did her brothers and sisters, so experience was part of it. The worst was actually when I left portland, I was in a bunch of TAG classes (I think thats what they called them back then), then when we moved to a smaller town, I got stuck in classes that I had basically graduated out of like 3-4 years prior to that, it’s just thats what they had. It was almost like torture to a (TorturedBlazerFan) person who needs challenged in order for things to remain interested. If we move someday I dont want to risk making them reset their education.

Then there are other things. Im responsible for these kids, Im responsible for their actions, and people generally fall on that side of it. So in my opinion if Im responsible for all of what they do for the next 18ish years, then I want to teach them and know what Im putting in their minds so to speak. I absolutely understand that some people don't have that option, and that public schools work for others, Im not looking down my nose at them. Its just how we've decided to do it in our home. As long as kids are being educated and prepared for adult hood thats the important part.

If our kids have or have special needs, and need professional help we will either explore hiring someone to help us, or private / public schools that have people trained to help them. Most parents want whats best for their kids, just many of us make different decisions on what will work best for their kids, and their families.

 

[calvin natt]

You don't say!
Take another run at what I posted, it appears you missed a bit.

There aren’t any MA or Supp plans in your county? Is it Coos county?

 

[riverman]

A few things I guess. My experience in public schools was negative, teachers that didnt care, teachers that didnt make learning interesting, classrooms that were crowded. My wife was home schooled as were her siblings and she had good experiences with it and so did her brothers and sisters, so experience was part of it. The worst was actually when I left portland, I was in a bunch of TAG classes (I think thats what they called them back then), then when we moved to a smaller town, I got stuck in classes that I had basically graduated out of like 3-4 years prior to that, it’s just thats what they had. It was almost like torture to a (TorturedBlazerFan) person who needs challenged in order for things to remain interested. If we move someday I dont want to risk making them reset their education.

Then there are other things. Im responsible for these kids, Im responsible for their actions, and people generally fall on that side of it. So in my opinion if Im responsible for all of what they do for the next 18ish years, then I want to teach them and know what Im putting in their minds so to speak. I absolutely understand that some people don't have that option, and that public schools work for others, Im not looking down my nose at them. Its just how we've decided to do it in our home. As long as kids are being educated and prepared for adult hood thats the important part.

If our kids have or have special needs, and need professional help will either explore hiring someone to help us our private / public schools that have people trained to help them. Most parents want whats best for their kids, just many of us make different decisions on what will work best for their kids, and their families.

I understand this but to me...you do both...allowing your children to learn in the community they live in develops social skills homeschooling may not address...there's more to school than academics but at the same time you need to homeschool if you're a parent no matter if your children attend public or private school...I taught my son everyday at home and he went to public school....growing up on a dairy farm in rural Iowa, I loved school....if I wasn't in class discovering things I'd be on the farm mucking out stalls or weeding soybeans. I loved the library.....place I could shut off the world and learn without distractions. School introduced me to literature, theater and music in a way I wouldn't have experienced staying on the farm...no youtube when I was that age for tutoring