Ayton (2 Viewers)

[beast blazer]

I don’t disagree Ayton plays (emphasis on PLAYS)soft at all.
Just think using Joel Pryzbilla as your example might not hold much weight.

Why should a guy who is supposed to be an offensive contributer get less FTA than someone who gets excluded from the offense? Not sure why you guys are getting hung up on Joel, it doesn't matter. Joel also got LESS FTA than most other centers. So it was meant to show how bad Ayton is in that respect. If you look at other centers, it makes Ayton look even worse.

 

[kjironman1]

Why should a guy who is supposed to be an offensive contributer get less FTA than someone who gets excluded from the offense? Not sure why you guys are getting hung up on Joel, it doesn't matter. Joel also got LESS FTA than most other centers. So it was meant to show how bad Ayton is in that respect. If you look at other centers, it makes Ayton look even worse.

Like I already said. Joel got hacked during close games because he couldn’t make free throws. That totally throws your stats out the window.
I agree Ayton could play more physical and draw more fouls. He’s a jump shooting center that works more towards a mid range game. He also seems to shoot that fall away hook shot quite a bit. Those shots don’t draw fouls.

 

[beast blazer]

Like I already said. Joel got hacked during close games because he couldn’t make free throws. That totally throws your stats out the window.
I agree Ayton could play more physical and draw more fouls. He’s a jump shooting center that works more towards a mid range game. He also seems to shoot that fall away hook shot quite a bit. Those shots don’t draw fouls.

*facepalm*

 

[PtldPlatypus]

*facepalm*

Just pick another offensively inept starting center who didn't get routinely fouled for possession, and reset the completely valid point.

 

[beast blazer]

Just pick another offensively inept starting center who didn't get routinely fouled for possession, and reset the completely valid point.

Statement: Car A is very slow, it has a maximum speed of only 40MPH. As a comparison, Car B, which is also much slower than normal, could reach a top speed of 60 MPH

Retort: Car B is faster because it weighs less.

That doesn't change the fact that car A is slow (as is car B for that matter). Using a normal car that can get over 100 just makes Car A look even worse. Not to belabor this point, it's just a logic fail. Also, I don't think teams really played hack a joel that much, but to what extend they did, he still didn't get to the line much.

 

[PCmor7]

Ok, let's go over some numbers.
- Ayton is averaging 1.5 FTA per game. Which shows how incredibly soft he is. To put that into context, Joel Pryzbilla, a guy who never sniffed the ball on offense averaged about twice that many.
-Ayton's TS% is not good this year. 55.5%, which is especially not good for a lower usage, more opportunistic scorer. It's 6% under his career average.
-He's only shooting 67% from 0-3. A career low...this is as bad as Nurk


Only thing he really does well is rebound.

We already know you don't like him and have let it impair your objectivity when watching him play. Unlike you, I don't have to marry myself to an all-or-nothing position. Ayton's not perfect, not even the greatest. That he doesn't get to the line more is frustrating, and I hope it's something he improves because he's a solid FT shooter. I'm simply stating, though, that he's a lot better than you and others who just need guys on the team to hate on are willing to realize.

A number of the things I mentioned that are good about him aren't statistically easy to measure. What he can do, does and tries to do makes it easier to put together a winning team. I've sufficiently illustrated that.

After watching this team be forced to defend around our bigs (including Przybilla) for years. You can do a lot more because he can pester guards 40 feet from the basket if he's caught in a mismatch and his threat to consistently make shots from 15-17 feet forces other defenses to play us in ways that will open things up when we have better players to be able to take advantage of it.

Now, about the stats you posted, stats compiled in half a year playing on a team that's trying to lose aren't really an adequate reflection of metrics, either. If we go to two years where this is a definite trend rather than a blip, then I'll worry about it. Of course, I'm not looking at a scapegoat.

But keep dying on this hill.

 

[PCmor7]

Statement: Car A is very slow, it has a maximum speed of only 40MPH. As a comparison, Car B, which is also much slower than normal, could reach a top speed of 60 MPH

Retort: Car B is faster because it weighs less.

That doesn't change the fact that car A is slow (as is car B for that matter). Using a normal car that can get over 100 just makes Car A look even worse. Not to belabor this point, it's just a logic fail. Also, I don't think teams really played hack a joel that much, but to what extend they did, he still didn't get to the line much.

Huh?

I'm going to call you Simone Biles from now on because the mental gymnastics you are going through to try not to get drug for a weird hate would get you a gold medal if you didn't set such a high degree of difficulty.

 

[PCmor7]

Even with his numbers down this year playing on a team with six rookies and assorted other spare parts, Ayton is just under a career 60% shooter from the field and averages a double-double. Yet his admittedly-frustrating inability to get to the line more -- where he shoots 75% for his career -- is being cited as a reason he's not a good player.

I swear one couldn't make this up. It's a prime example of not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[riverman]

I, for one, don’t miss the lumbering big men getting hacked and shooting a Shaq ton of free throws to win 86-82!
The game has changed and the role of center has changed. On the radio Antonio Harvey said his good friend coached Ayton before the NBA and that the kid was a healthy Greg Oden talent. I’m starting to see that and if he keeps it up he’ll be the best big we’ve had since Oden

 

[kjironman1]

Just pick another offensively inept starting center who didn't get routinely fouled for possession, and reset the completely valid point.

Yeah that's pretty much all I have said. It wasn't rocket science. Totally agree Ayton could be playing tougher around the rim. His point is indeed valid.

 

[kjironman1]

Statement: Car A is very slow, it has a maximum speed of only 40MPH. As a comparison, Car B, which is also much slower than normal, could reach a top speed of 60 MPH

Retort: Car B is faster because it weighs less.

That doesn't change the fact that car A is slow (as is car B for that matter). Using a normal car that can get over 100 just makes Car A look even worse. Not to belabor this point, it's just a logic fail. Also, I don't think teams really played hack a joel that much, but to what extend they did, he still didn't get to the line much.

Now this is an actual *FacePalm*

 

[wizenheimer]

That plus Joel had no jump shot. So all of his shots were right under the basket. Jump shooters get fouled less in general. Same with centers that have a decent jump hook. It seems to me that we often label skilled centers as being soft. I don't think Ayton is soft.

I'm not sure 'soft' is the appropriate label for this

but for a big man, he sure doesn't get the line as much as his big men peers

career FT Rate (this season):

Gobert .716 (.654)
Embiid .555 (.546)
Nick Richards .539 (.445)
Jarrett Allen .457 (.371)
Adebayo .445 (.470)
Mitchell Robinson .443 (.388)
Steven Adams .441 (.490)
Zubac .400 (.342)
Mark Williams .400 (.424)
Eubanks .398 (.396)
Sabonis .375 (.399)
Claxton .398 (.338)
Sengun .377 (.348)
Moritz Wagner .377 (.390)
Nurkic .375 (.364)
W. Carter Jr .341 (.312)
Capela .338 (.349)
Looney .333 (.351)
Jaren Jackson .332 (.370)
Valunciunas .332 (.315)
Ricgaun Holmes .317 (.375)
KAT .325 (.312)
Jokic .329 (.319)
Porzingis .316 (.467)
Myles Turner .312 (.366)
Poeltl .309 (.319)
B. Lopez .297 (.182)
Zach Collins .262 (.259)
Ayton .208 (.132)
Vucevic .142 (.095)

big men who draw fouls and get to the line add a lot of value to a team. If it wasn't for Vucevic, Ayton would be by far the worst at it in the league. So, while it might not actually be a "soft" characteristic of Ayton, it's a definite flaw. And for whatever reason, he's much worse at FT rate in Portland than he was in Phoenix. I don't know if it's the system or the players he's on the floor with or attitude or a combination of factors, it's still another reason to look cross-eyed at his game

 

[Pinwheel1]

I'm not sure 'soft' is the appropriate label for this

but for a big man, he sure doesn't get the line as much as his big men peers

career FT Rate (this season):

Gobert .716 (.654)
Embiid .555 (.546)
Nick Richards .539 (.445)
Jarrett Allen .457 (.371)
Adebayo .445 (.470)
Mitchell Robinson .443 (.388)
Steven Adams .441 (.490)
Zubac .400 (.342)
Mark Williams .400 (.424)
Eubanks .398 (.396)
Sabonis .375 (.399)
Claxton .398 (.338)
Sengun .377 (.348)
Moritz Wagner .377 (.390)
Nurkic .375 (.364)
W. Carter Jr .341 (.312)
Capela .338 (.349)
Looney .333 (.351)
Jaren Jackson .332 (.370)
Valunciunas .332 (.315)
Ricgaun Holmes .317 (.375)
KAT .325 (.312)
Jokic .329 (.319)
Porzingis .316 (.467)
Myles Turner .312 (.366)
Poeltl .309 (.319)
B. Lopez .297 (.182)
Zach Collins .262 (.259)
Ayton .208 (.132)
Vucevic .142 (.095)

big men who draw fouls and get to the line add a lot of value to a team. If it wasn't for Vucevic, Ayton would be by far the worst at it in the league. So, while it might not actually be a "soft" characteristic of Ayton, it's a definite flaw. And for whatever reason, he's much worse at FT rate in Portland than he was in Phoenix. I don't know if it's the system or the players he's on the floor with or attitude or a combination of factors, it's still another reason to look cross-eyed at his game

Wow, I did not realize how flawed Kat, Jokic, and Porzingis are this season. Over 20 centers are better at getting to the line. I can see why Minnesota, Denver, and Boston are struggling.

 

[wizenheimer]

Wow, I did not realize how flawed Kat, Jokic, and Porzingis are this season. Over 20 centers are better at getting to the line. I can see why Minnesota, Denver, and Boston are struggling.

sorry...I must have misspoke and said FT Rate is the only gauge for judging a big man

 

[Pinwheel1]

sorry...I must have misspoke and said FT Rate is the only gauge for judging a big man

Yeah, it isn't even my top 5 things I care about from our big man. Now I do care if our center can shoot free throws in order to stay on the floor at the end of games, but I just don't care that much about how good they are at drawing fouls. Not when they have a career FG % of close to 60%

 

[sheed30]

Proving the haters wrong!

Lmao. After one game? I’m not bashing Ayton, just that guys were so damn hard in Nurk and giving Ayton passes so far is odd.

I guess the new shinny thing to do here is bash Billups, and complain about Ant.

maybe if one day Billups is fired you guys will turn to Ayton as the new shinny thing to bash.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Lmao. After one game? I’m not bashing Ayton, just that guys were so damn hard in Nurk and giving Ayton passes so far is odd.

I guess the new shinny thing to do here is bash Billups, and complain about Ant.

maybe if one day Billups is fired you guys will turn to Ayton as the new shinny thing to bash.

I am pretty sure that has already started

 

[sheed30]

Even with his numbers down this year playing on a team with six rookies and assorted other spare parts, Ayton is just under a career 60% shooter from the field and averages a double-double. Yet his admittedly-frustrating inability to get to the line more -- where he shoots 75% for his career -- is being cited as a reason he's not a good player.

I swear one couldn't make this up. It's a prime example of not seeing the forest for the trees.

Man there is games in there he just coasts.

yes he does some good things, but I’m just baffled at how many of you were bashing Nurkic over and over and are now praising Ayton when he has many of the same qualities.

even last night, either in OT or 4th, someone took a shot, and he was just standing out by the out of bounds under the hoop. The ball danced on the rim for a little bit and Ayton just stood there staring at it instead of getting back into the play and trying to get the offensive rebounds.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Man there is games in there he just coasts.

yes he does some good things, but I’m just baffled at how many of you were bashing Nurkic over and over and are now praising Ayton when he has many of the same qualities.

even last night, either in OT or 4th, someone took a shot, and he was just standing out by the out of bounds under the hoop. The ball danced on the rim for a little bit and Ayton just stood there staring at it instead of getting back into the play and trying to get the offensive rebounds.

At some point, I think all fans on all teams feel the same about their bigs.

Scene from Airplane:

Joey : Wait a minute. I know you. You're Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. You play basketball for the Los Angeles Lakers.

Roger Murdock : I'm sorry, son, but you must have me confused with someone else. My name is Roger Murdock. I'm the co-pilot.

Joey : You are Kareem! I've seen you play. My dad's got season tickets.

Roger Murdock : I think you should go back to your seat now, Joey. Right, Clarence?

Captain Oveur : Nahhhhhh, he's not bothering anyone. Let him stay here.

Roger Murdock : But just remember, my name is...

[showing his nametag]

Roger Murdock : ROGER MURDOCK. I'm an airline pilot.

Joey : I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense.

[Kareem gets angry]

Joey : And he says that lots of times, you don't even run down court. And that you don't really try... except during the playoffs.

Roger Murdock : [breaking character] The hell I don't! LISTEN, KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night! Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!

 

[PCmor7]

Man there is games in there he just coasts.

yes he does some good things, but I’m just baffled at how many of you were bashing Nurkic over and over and are now praising Ayton when he has many of the same qualities.

even last night, either in OT or 4th, someone took a shot, and he was just standing out by the out of bounds under the hoop. The ball danced on the rim for a little bit and Ayton just stood there staring at it instead of getting back into the play and trying to get the offensive rebounds.

You seem to be talking about not recklessly going all out every possession rather than hustling in general throughout the game. Last night there were multiple examples of him hustling and making plays or hustling and forcing the other team to adjust which made plays for others.

Let's just mention another. There was a play in the second half where Ayton got stuck on VanVleet way outside. FVV kept trying to use his quickness and ability to create space to lose Ayton and couldn't, and it ended up being a 3-second violation on the Rockets.

Also, Segun with his unorthodox offensive game was able to score on Ayton pretty well in the second half. Except, late in the game, Ayton adjusted, manned up and stopped Segun when it mattered most.

If your benchmark for hustling and being a good player is going after every single play even when you have essentially no mathematical chance of making it and then wearing yourself out when there's a hustle play you can make, you probably could find examples negating any player in NBA history including Prime Jordan from being good. Ayton played more than 40 minutes, had 18-17, was like plus-11 or something and we won on the road in a back-to-back against what might be a playoff team.

I can understand disappointment in a player or maybe in their play versus their pay, but some of you guys are trying too hard and it shows. You're holding Ayton to a standard that not even Bill Russell or Wilt could reach.

 

[PCmor7]

At some point, I think all fans on all teams feel the same: Scene from Airplane:

Joey : Wait a minute. I know you. You're Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. You play basketball for the Los Angeles Lakers.

Roger Murdock : I'm sorry, son, but you must have me confused with someone else. My name is Roger Murdock. I'm the co-pilot.

Joey : You are Kareem! I've seen you play. My dad's got season tickets.

Roger Murdock : I think you should go back to your seat now, Joey. Right, Clarence?

Captain Oveur : Nahhhhhh, he's not bothering anyone. Let him stay here.

Roger Murdock : But just remember, my name is...

[showing his nametag]

Roger Murdock : ROGER MURDOCK. I'm an airline pilot.

Joey : I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense.

[Kareem gets angry]

Joey : And he says that lots of times, you don't even run down court. And that you don't really try... except during the playoffs.

Roger Murdock : [breaking character] The hell I don't! LISTEN, KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night! Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!

As I recall, Roger Murdock was a complete non-factor in saving that flight, too. Guy practically slept through the end.

 

[PCmor7]

I just love these takes. Ayton isn't as good as Embiid and Jokic which makes him worse than Hassan Whiteside and Joel Przybilla. Talk about bizarre arguments.

 

[PCmor7]

Pinwheel: "Surely, you can't be serious."

Sheed30: "I am serious. And stop calling me 'Shirley.'"

 

[PCmor7]

sorry...I must have misspoke and said FT Rate is the only gauge for judging a big man

I think his response had more to do with you seeming to put a lot of value in that stat, and that the bigger argument going on right now is that at least one poster is using that stat and that stat alone as a dismissal of Ayton's value.

He doesn't get to the line as much as we think he could/should. I don't think I've seen even his advocates disputing that. Some people are trying to make the perfect the enemy of the good here, though, to the point that DA actually having a good game makes them angry and coming out even more critical of him that usual.

 

[wizenheimer]

Yeah, it isn't even my top 5 things I care about from our big man. Now I do care if our center can shoot free throws in order to stay on the floor at the end of games, but I just don't care that much about how good they are at drawing fouls. Not when they have a career FG % of close to 60%

most C's have career 2ptFG% and eFG% around 60%. I'm not sure that's much of an accomplishment

but I think you are being a little too dismissive about the value of a big man's FT rate. You mentioned Jokic's seemingly low rate for a C. Well, Jokic is currently averaging 3.6 more points/game from the FT line than Ayton. That is a substantial margin for one component of one player's contribution to a team score. More than the raw points though, is the value of getting the team into the bonus earlier in a quarter. That's going to generate more FT points than just those scored by the C. And, there's the value of potentially getting the other team's best rim protector in foul trouble and having him on the bench

 

[PCmor7]

most C's have career 2ptFG% and eFG% around 60%. I'm not sure that's much of an accomplishment

I'd dispute that.

There are nine players in the NBA shooting above that mark right now. A whopping two of them average 10 shots per game. And Giannis is one of those nine, so he's not even a C.

 

[maxiep]

When it comes to offense, I don't really care. I want my center rebounding and anchoring the interior. Ayton does a reasonable job of it.

 

[wizenheimer]

I'd dispute that.

There are nine players in the NBA shooting above that mark right now. A whopping two of them average 10 shots per game. And Giannis is one of those nine, so he's not even a C.

yeah, I shouldn't have added eFG%. But when it comes to 2ptFG%:

Daniel Gafford .692
Jakob Poeltl .685
Moritz Wagner .675
Jarrett Allen .663
Ivica Zubac .655
Kristaps Porziņģis .649
Jalen Duren .641
Brook Lopez .640
Nic Claxton .638
Rudy Gobert .637
Nikola Jokić .635
Domantas Sabonis .629
Chet Holmgren .625
Myles Turner .622
Jonas Valančiūnas .616
Naz Reid .589
Zach Collins .583
Alperen Şengün .577
Anthony Davis .576
Joel Embiid .568
Clint Capela .567
Jusuf Nurkić .555
Nikola Vučević .541
Victor Wembanyama .540
Deandre Ayton .535

now, this is Ayton's worst season so that's probably fairly skewed. His career mark is .599 which would put him right behind Valunciunas

when it comes to gauging the impact FT's have on efficiency, then TS% is the go-to gauge. Ayton Career make of .617 compared to C's this season

Daniel Gafford .713
Jarrett Allen .688
Jakob Poeltl .675
Moritz Wagner .666
Ivica Zubac .665
Nikola Jokić .660
Kristaps Porziņģis .658
Rudy Gobert .652
Onyeka Okongwu .652
Joel Embiid .651
Jalen Duren .650
Domantas Sabonis .648
Nic Claxton .640
Chet Holmgren .639
Jonas Valančiūnas .639
Myles Turner .628
Dario Šarić .625
Anthony Davis .624
Naz Reid .620
Deandre Ayton .617 (career)

I wish bbref hadn't put a lot of searches behind a paywall. Used to be I could have sorted for career TS% for C's

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Who knew that Daniel Gafford has been one of the best offensive centers this season? He's also leading the league in Ortg, while on one of the worst teams in the league.

 

[Pinwheel1]

When it comes to offense, I don't really care. I want my center rebounding and anchoring the interior. Ayton does a reasonable job of it.

Me too. I mean it would be nice to have Embiid or Jokic to dominate games on offense, but I am ok with a long center (with decent hops) like Ayton who can catch a pass 10-12 feet from the basket when the shot clock is winding down and who actually has a decent chance of making the shot without putting the ball on the floor. Nothing drives me crazy more than a center who turns the ball over. (traveling offensive fouls, forced passes) Especially down the stretch of a tight game. Plus he has a decent jump hook as well.