Game Thread GAME# 17: BLAZERS @ CAVALIERS - NOVEMBER 23, 2019 - SATURDAY, 5:00 PM, NBCSNW

[JDC]

he had a PER of 9.2, a winhare/48 of .048 (9th on the team); and a box plus/minus of -2.8 (8th on the team). And as far as his supposed strength, defense, he was 8th on the team in defensive box plus/minus, and 13th in defensive rating. He isn't the reason Portland was 2-1

sure, ridiculously small sample size, and I think he's better than those numbers. But too many people are talking like he was the 2nd best player on the team. But then, we've reached the any-excuse-in-the-storm phase of the season

yes, roster turnover, injuries, and lots of road games are factors. But those aren't the only factors at work with this team

Any stat worth a damn says we were better when Zach was on the floor on both ends.

His injury was crippling.

 

[Blazers1977]

Again they didnt trade or cut him, he was a Free Agent, who got more in Orlando then the Blazers could pay him.

Maybe it wasn’t practical to keep him, I don’t know. But if we could have, we should have.

 

[Propagandist]

Even though I know this is happening, I still can't believe this is happening.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Shane Battier. Udonis Haslem circa 2006. Trevor Ariza.

Edit: you don’t see the statistical argument, says the guy making excuses about stats from 6/7 of his playoff series... right

You’re not even really making an argument, but whatever.

Trevor Ariza is maybe a decent comparison, can fit in certain systems not in others.

Im going to bed, lets beat Chicago and get some wins.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Maybe it wasn’t practical to keep him, I don’t know. But if we could have, we should have.

IIRC it wasnt really an option, but there are people with better cap knowledge than I.

 

[Blazers1977]

So do you want olshey fired?

I don’t know enough about the financial side of things to judge. All I know is aminu was underrated by fans and in general. His defense was awesome. He could force the other teams best player into a hard shot almost every possession, that is invaluable.

 

[Blazers1977]

You’re not even really making an argument, but whatever.

Trevor Ariza is maybe a decent comparison, can fit in certain systems not in others.

Im going to bed, lets beat Chicago and get some wins.

The argument is aminu was a great defender and even an adept scorer in the playoffs, per his playoff stats, and the fact that he was often on the weak side when doubles were drawn to dame doesn’t change that.

aminu played his dick off for this team and he is spoken of like an average scrub after one bad series. Sigh.

 

[JDC]

We could actually rebound with Zach+Whiteside on the floor.

Gave us a mobile 5 option vs downsized lineups that could spread the floor, cover ground, protect the rim and switch pnr...

I'm admittedly a Zach stan, but his value to this team goes so far beyond his box score based stats.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

The argument is aminu was a great defender and even an adept scorer in the playoffs, per his playoff stats, and the fact that he was often on the weak side when doubles were drawn to dame doesn’t change that.

aminu played his dick off for this team and he is spoken of like an average scrub. Sigh.

I really need to get my kids to bed, but when I say average NBA role player that doesnt make you a scrub... A scrub is the guys who don't belong on the court. Aminu does and can have a role for a good team. My issue with the last few years was that Harkless and Aminu combo as starting forwards just did not provide enough consistent offense. They both belong in the NBA, and an average NBA role player is still among the best in the whole world, theres nothing at all wrong with being an average NBA role player. All that said to me Aminu is also sort of replaceable, at least easier to replace then a star or borderine star like CJ has been.

If they couldve kept Aminu ok, but you either have him on the bench or pair him with a guy like Hood who can be a more consistent threat.

 

[BonesJones]

Yes bc Kawhi is a “role player”

Thanks for engaging with my actual argument and not a strawman you made up in an attempt to make me sound dumb. I can always count on you to elevate discussions to a higher level.

Aminu's only a role player? Why are you shitting on him like that?

 

[BonesJones]

Great defender who never got a vote for all-defensive team. Hmmm...

 

[BonesJones]

Any stat worth a damn says we were better when Zach was on the floor on both ends.

His injury was crippling.

For sure. Problem is, it shouldn't be fatal.

 

[JDC]

For sure. Problem is, it shouldn't be fatal.

When you start Dame-CJ-Hood and your two other 5's are slow reacting sloth's, it isn't far off.

 

[BonesJones]

When you start Dame-CJ-Hood and your two other 5's are slow reacting sloth's, it isn't far off.

The offense should be top 10, if not top 5 with those guys though.

And we shouldn't be this bad defensively. Stotts sucks.

 

[JDC]

The offense should be top 10, if not top 5 with those guys though.

And we shouldn't be this bad defensively. Stotts sucks.

We are not playing well at all, that's clear. And Stotts plays a part in that.

But an already unbalanced roster became so much more so with Zach going down plus the corresponding Melo addition (I don't think it happens if Zach's healthy).

Killed our lineup flexibility.

 

[wizenheimer]

We could actually rebound with Zach+Whiteside on the floor.

rebound rate:

Hassan Whiteside 21.5
Skal Labissière 15.4
Mario Hezonja 13.0
Nassir Little 12.0
Carmelo Anthony 10.5
Kent Bazemore 9.5
Anthony Tolliver 9.3
Gary Trent 7.0
Zach Collins 7.0

defensive rebound rate (something killing the Blazers):

Hassan Whiteside 29.3
Mario Hezonja 22.4
Kent Bazemore 17.6
Skal Labissière 17.5
Carmelo Anthony 17.0
Nassir Little 16.1
Anthony Tolliver 14.5
Damian Lillard 11.6
Gary Trent 10.5
Rodney Hood 9.8
CJ McCollum 9.7
Zach Collins 9.3

 

[JDC]

rebound rate:

Hassan Whiteside 21.5
Skal Labissière 15.4
Mario Hezonja 13.0
Nassir Little 12.0
Carmelo Anthony 10.5
Kent Bazemore 9.5
Anthony Tolliver 9.3
Gary Trent 7.0
Zach Collins 7.0

defensive rebound rate (something killing the Blazers):

Hassan Whiteside 29.3
Mario Hezonja 22.4
Kent Bazemore 17.6
Skal Labissière 17.5
Carmelo Anthony 17.0
Nassir Little 16.1
Anthony Tolliver 14.5
Damian Lillard 11.6
Gary Trent 10.5
Rodney Hood 9.8
CJ McCollum 9.7
Zach Collins 9.3

Zach + Whiteside = 82nd percentile Dreb rate

We currently rank last in Dreb rate for the season.

Not sure what else needs to be said.

 

[wizenheimer]

Zach + Whiteside = 82nd percentile Dreb rate

We currently rank last in Dreb rate for the season.

Not sure what else needs to be said.

I think that stat is extremely debatable as long as you attribute it to Zach; he can't have had those bad of rebounding rates and been a primary factor in rebounding, especially on the defensive glass. I mean for chrissakes CJ was out-rebounding Zach on the defensive boards. So yeah, there's plenty more that needs to be said.

I get that you are a big fan of Zach, but he's simply not a good rebounder. Maybe he will become one, maybe he won't. But he sure as hell was not a good rebounder in the first 3 games

by the way, I'm not sure where you're getting those rebond rates? in the first 3 games, Portland had defensive rebounding rates of 76.1%, 72.9%, 77.4%. Hard to get to 82% from there, and if there's a stat of just those 2 guys, it's essentially useless without knowing who the other 3 guys were and what they were doing on the glass

 

[kjironman1]

I’m not gonna lie though, if we continue down this road I’m afraid Dame will not want to be a part of yet another rebuild.

Why not? It's all part of the game. Take the players that are solid and build a good team. It can happen very fast with the core players they have.

 

[JDC]

I think that stat is extremely debatable as long as you attribute it to Zach; he can't have had those bad of rebounding rates and been a primary factor in rebounding, especially on the defensive glass. I mean for chrissakes CJ was out-rebounding Zach on the defensive boards. So yeah, there's plenty more that needs to be said.

I get that you are a big fan of Zach, but he's simply not a good rebounder. Maybe he will become one, maybe he won't. But he sure as hell was not a good rebounder in the first 3 games

There's a lot more that goes into rebounding at a team level than just who grabs the rebound.

What type of shots are you giving up? How often does your defense break down? Are shot attempts happening during emergency help situations?

Yes, a part of it is who Zach's being replaced with. Some think Skal should play PF, but I'm not sure how anybody can't watch him move and react on the floor and think that would be a good idea.

 

[wizenheimer]

There's a lot more that goes into rebounding at a team level than who grabs the rebound.

sure...but it's crazy for you to track down one statistic and use that to justify saying Zach is essential to defensive rebounding rate when CJ out-rebounds him. We're both dealing with a ridiculously small sample size, but you were the one that tried to make something out of a 3 game sample

we can look at last season for guidance:

* when Zach was on the floor, Portland had a 27.1% offensive reb rate; off the floor, Portland had a 31.1% rate; -4.0

* when Zach was on the floor, Portland had a 73.9% defensive reb rate; off the floor, Blazers had a 75.6% rate; -1.7

* Zach on the floor, a total reb rate of 50.5%; off the floor, 53.4% rate; -2.9

* last season, Zach's offensive reb rate was 8.8% vs this season at 4.7%

* last season, Zach's defensive reb rate was 16.5% vs this season 9.3%

putting all those numbers together logically makes your assertion shaky beyond belief. The potential of 'blocking out' isn't worth that much

http://www.82games.com/1819/18POR15.HTM

 

[wizenheimer]

by the way, I caught just a few snippets of the game during commercials of the Duck debacle

every time I saw Dame use a screen (about 3-4 times) I say the Cavs jump the screen and double Dame. Did they do that all night?

 

[JDC]

sure...but it's crazy for you to track down one statistic and use that to justify saying Zach is essential to defensive rebounding rate when CJ out-rebounds him. We're both dealing with a ridiculously small sample size, but you were the one that tried to make something out of a 3 game sample

we can look at last season for guidance:

* when Zach was on the floor, Portland had a 27.1% offensive reb rate; off the floor, Portland had a 31.1% rate; -4.0

* when Zach was on the floor, Portland had a 73.9% defensive reb rate; off the floor, Blazers had a 75.6% rate; -1.7

* Zach on the floor, a total reb rate of 50.5%; off the floor, 53.4% rate; -2.9

* last season, Zach's offensive reb rate was 8.8% vs this season at 4.7%

* last season, Zach's defensive reb rate was 16.5% vs this season 9.3%

putting all those numbers together logically makes your assertion shaky beyond belief. The potential of 'blocking out' isn't worth that much

http://www.82games.com/1819/18POR15.HTM

Different role on a different roster. We were also a dominant rebounding team with Hark-Aminu-Nurk (all 3 of which Zach rarely played with) so there's a bit of context missing in those one off numbers.

But yes, Zach struggles on the boards when he's the only big / rim protector and alongside no other above average defensive rebounder.

If we had an adequate replacement, it wouldn't be nearly the issue it is.

 

[BonesJones]

We are not playing well at all, that's clear. And Stotts plays a part in that.

But an already unbalanced roster became so much more so with Zach going down plus the corresponding Melo addition (I don't think it happens if Zach's healthy).

Killed our lineup flexibility.

Sounds like we agree.

 

[hoopsjock]

What I mainly don't get is, he keeps choosing to play Tolliver and Carmelo together as their "bigs" neither can play defense and both are way undersized against other teams bigs. At least play Moses Brown, or Skal more... Or I dunno Little since he is at least strong enough and plays with enough energy to cause some sort of damage down there.

I've been saying the last two games Melo and Tolliver started that Little should play the SF in those situations so at least we have 3 bigger forwards if there isn't going to be a center.

For some reason Little is only allowed to play PF. Sound familiar? It's the same thing Stotts did with Aminu.

 

[SIeepwalker]

If we lose this I’ll guarantee Terry Stotts would be fired

I wish

 

[SIeepwalker]

Our offense is so fucking ugly

You know how in practice sometimes you have those drills where you're not allowed to dribble ? Stotts probably has drills where you're not allowed to pass instead

 

[SIeepwalker]

Thompson was really good, looked lik an all-star ! I wonder why !

 

[SIeepwalker]

Simons with 14 minutes.

When you're a young player playing under Stotts you better not have 2 not great game in a row or you can go fuck yourself

If you're CJ though you're good don't worry about it

 

[kjironman1]

This one pretty much sucked.