GT: New Jersey Nets vs. Phoenix Suns

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Not to single you out, but this is the kind of statement that really annoys me because it reflects a total lack of understanding (or at least acknowledgment) of team defensive concepts and that those shots opened up because Phoenix bigs (O'Neal especially) completely overmatched our bigs. Bell's sensational 3-point shooting night has almost nothing to do with VC's individual defense (which has been quite good this season). You have to look at what Vince's other responsibilities were, where he had gone to help immediately before Bell shot, and who had the responsibility of rotating to Bell on a particular open shot. Without checking my Tivo, I can think of only one instance where a Bell 3 was Vince's fault, and it was the one where VC overreacted to left baseline penetration to close the lane, wound up double covering with Yi and leaving Bell open in the opposite corner, who of course had the ball swung to him from the penetrating player and swished a wide open 3. That's a mistake by the guy guarding Bell but at least one committed out of alert (and legitimate) concern for an advantage that was being gained on the opposite side of the floor.

Dont worry about it! Yeah, VC may not have been responsible for all 6 shots, but once you take a look at your TIVO will notice that atleast 3 of 6 shots was because VC lost Bell.

I am not against being a fan of ONE player, but VC has always had a bad habit of losing his man.
 
Dont worry about it! Yeah, VC may not have been responsible for all 6 shots, but once you take a look at your TIVO will notice that atleast 3 of 6 shots was because VC lost Bell.

I am not against being a fan of ONE player, but VC has always had a bad habit of losing his man.

I am absolutely certain that he didn't give up ANY 3 point shots to Bell because he "lost his man" in the sense of not paying attention or not giving effort to keep up with him. I don't even need to check Tivo for that.

But you're glossing over the point I was making, namely that defense is a TEAM responsibility and that if Vince "lost" Bell, it was because he was deliberately helping someone else who either lost their man or was at a serious disadvantage in a matchup or floor situation. It then becomes the responsibility of someone else on the team to identify Bell as open and get to him in time to bother his shot. No single defender can be two places at once, and it's not fair to expect a player who rotated to the lane stop a pick and roll or collapsed in transition to stop a layup/dunk to also be able to recover out to the 3 point line when the ball is immediately swung.

Slamming VC's defense is the easy, knee-jerk, mindless thing to do. It's been done so long by others that it must reflect truth, right? It's certainly much easier than critically watching games and seeing that Vince has actually been this team's best defender since February and that, despite many poor defensive performances in his NJ tenure, he has also had any number of excellent defensive performances. It's legitimate to look at his career and observe that he has played lazy defense on a lot of possessions in the past and has frequently not been physical in negotiating screens. But it's also legitimate to observe that he has been focused, attentive, physical, intelligent, and consistently diligent on the defensive end since he took on the leadership role of the team post Kidd trade. He's not flawless defensively but I find little fault with his effort or individual defense.
 
I am absolutely certain that he didn't give up ANY 3 point shots to Bell because he "lost his man" in the sense of not paying attention or not giving effort to keep up with him. I don't even need to check Tivo for that.
But you're glossing over the point I was making, namely that defense is a TEAM responsibility and that if Vince "lost" Bell, it was because he was deliberately helping someone else who either lost their man or was at a serious disadvantage in a matchup or floor situation. It then becomes the responsibility of someone else on the team to identify Bell as open and get to him in time to bother his shot. No single defender can be two places at once, and it's not fair to expect a player who rotated to the lane stop a pick and roll or collapsed in transition to stop a layup/dunk to also be able to recover out to the 3 point line when the ball is immediately swung.

Slamming VC's defense is the easy, knee-jerk, mindless thing to do. It's been done so long by others that it must reflect truth, right? It's certainly much easier than critically watching games and seeing that Vince has actually been this team's best defender since February and that, despite many poor defensive performances in his NJ tenure, he has also had any number of excellent defensive performances. It's legitimate to look at his career and observe that he has played lazy defense on a lot of possessions in the past and has frequently not been physical in negotiating screens. But it's also legitimate to observe that he has been focused, attentive, physical, intelligent, and consistently diligent on the defensive end since he took on the leadership role of the team post Kidd trade. He's not flawless defensively but I find little fault with his effort or individual defense.

Sorry Man, but He did!!!! On more then one occasion.

If you feel that way, then I guess Harris would be off limites too.
 
well i just finished watchin the game... lol... well it was a solid first 3 quarters... but then we just died... btw... we need to finish quarters off BETTER....

Somewhere Doug Collins is nodding his head in agreement.

Regarding VC losing his man, he definitely did, and that was a deficiency with him last year. It's one thing to help down low, but he often half-asses when he doubles down low and serves no purpose down there. Obviously some of it is scheme, but he doesn't recover well, and you are supposed to do that. Plus, you have to recognize when a dude gets hot. I remember he left his guy last year in a game which led to a game tying 3. I wanna say it was that tough N. Orleans loss at home and mo pete was his man (that was the Collins game where twin completely screwed up everything with a 3-shot foul).
 
Back to the game and here is my take: Even though i predicted 52 wins this game was one that i had penciled in as a loss. Last year this was a 55 win team and i say they will win close to 60 this year. This is an elite team from the west, and the nets with their rookie front line isn't prepared or ready for such a contest and expect them to win.

Simply put Ryan Anderson, Lopez, or Yi haven't played against such a good nba front line, with yi getting a brief example in the olympic vs the dream team.

Shaq and Almare are no match for the nets rookie front line. Then to add to it they shoot a un godly figure of like 68% from the 3 and overall shooting. I'm real interested in seeing the stat coach frank keeps on contested shots. If the sun shot that high percentage on a high % of contested shots, well there is nothing you can do when a team is that hot.

It was one of those nights for the suns last night, and only duplicate a shooting exhibition like that once or twice a season. Wasn't the nets night, but the rookies played well thru the adversity and were impressive at times. If the suns shot a normal 50 or 45% could have been a much closer game. But they were hot, nothing else.


oh yeah go nets!!!
 
I am absolutely certain that he didn't give up ANY 3 point shots to Bell because he "lost his man" in the sense of not paying attention or not giving effort to keep up with him. I don't even need to check Tivo for that.

But you're glossing over the point I was making, namely that defense is a TEAM responsibility and that if Vince "lost" Bell, it was because he was deliberately helping someone else who either lost their man or was at a serious disadvantage in a matchup or floor situation. It then becomes the responsibility of someone else on the team to identify Bell as open and get to him in time to bother his shot. No single defender can be two places at once, and it's not fair to expect a player who rotated to the lane stop a pick and roll or collapsed in transition to stop a layup/dunk to also be able to recover out to the 3 point line when the ball is immediately swung.

Slamming VC's defense is the easy, knee-jerk, mindless thing to do. It's been done so long by others that it must reflect truth, right? It's certainly much easier than critically watching games and seeing that Vince has actually been this team's best defender since February and that, despite many poor defensive performances in his NJ tenure, he has also had any number of excellent defensive performances. It's legitimate to look at his career and observe that he has played lazy defense on a lot of possessions in the past and has frequently not been physical in negotiating screens. But it's also legitimate to observe that he has been focused, attentive, physical, intelligent, and consistently diligent on the defensive end since he took on the leadership role of the team post Kidd trade. He's not flawless defensively but I find little fault with his effort or individual defense.

Check your TIVO. His rotations were lazy.
 
I am still pissed off. What do I do during the day? Well, I sure as heck don't put on my wife's clothes, that's for sure.
 
Ooops!!! I am so used to seeing/reading posts from people with the VC "Man Crushes".

Sorry FOMW.

No problem, networks. When you post on a basketball forum, you know it will be assumed you are male. You should have seen the looks when I used to show up for pick up games at my local city park.:biglaugh:

BTW, I do intend on watching last game again before tomorrow night with special attention to any possession which arguably shows Vince playing lazy defense, as you and BrooklynBound have contended. I will post my findings with game clock identification for each such play, should there be any (and I don't think there are).

Could we agree in advance that one or two such possessions of casual or lazy defense is no reason to trash a guy's defense as a whole for the game (any more than taking a bad shot or two or committing a couple of turnovers is reason to trash an entire performance)?
 
I am still pissed off. What do I do during the day? Well, I sure as heck don't put on my wife's clothes, that's for sure.

Not just clothes . . . panties. And if we're going all out on Marv, a mouth guard or Fixadent is probably involved in his daily rituals too.:devilwink:
 

Nothing earth shattering, just the usual underestimation, being passed over by guys picking teams for 12 year-old boys, etc . . . until I got in the game and splashed a few 20 foot jumpers in their faces and then blew by them on a couple of crossover drives. Of course when the tall, athletic guys started taking me seriously, I pretty well faded into the woodwork, unless left open. But it was all fun.:cheers:
 

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