How's everyone feel about Smokin' Joe Cronin now?

[Propagandist]

Why should Joe have to call them!?!??!

They want Dame. They call Joe. That's how it works. If you list something on Craigslist, are you calling up people to come buy your shit???? They call or text you. If you call them you look desperate. We were already working from a deficit. Dame gave us a list with one team on it. Why the hell would Joe be calling them!?!

Yeah sure, dude. And Joe doesn't have to talk to Dame for weeks either or accept him back. He can do whatever he wants. Whatever. And I didn't say call, I said he'd not spoken to or reengaged.

 

[Samuel]

I actually worked with the guy they based Ryan Gosling's character on in "The Big Short". We both used to work for the Principal Transactions Group at CSFB. His real name is Greg Lippmann and Gosling's impersonation of him is spot on.

That’s awesome.

respectfully, he seems like someone who might be difficult to hang

Why should Joe have to call them!?!??!

They want Dame. They call Joe. That's how it works. If you list something on Craigslist, are you calling up people to come buy your shit???? They call or text you. If you call them you look desperate. We were already working from a deficit. Dame gave us a list with one team on it. Why the hell would Joe be calling them!?!

if joe called miami he'd be validating their anchoring lowball offer that they floated publicly. it made zero sense for joe to do the approach.

 

[Idog1976]

It was reported repeatedly that Joe had not spoken to Miami since Summer League. He NEVER reengaged Miami--the place Dame wanted to go. That's petty.

FUCK MIAMI, that's truth. Why in god's green earth would you "reopen negotiations" with an obvious bad faith negotiator? So you can ensure you get screwed? Why would you decide to have a discussion with your neighbor about where to place the fence, when you know he broke into the survey office and falsified documents so he could get a better deal thereby screwing you over and taking more of your property? You wouldn't. Why would you reward the insane bad behavior of Goodwin and Riley? Why? Dame's gonna win a ring now, even more certainly than on Miami, we got an All-Star two-way player, what will be a good draft pick and likely trading our late first rounders for lottery picks. Everyone wins, except for Dame's cousin who is gonna miss out on Dame's table scraps women. Wait, are YOU Dame's cousin? That would explain a lot. Fitting name you have given you are peddling the Dame/Miami propaganda.

 

[Tince]

No, but it’s not an opinion piece. It’s essentially Dame being Dame explaining about a fucked situation, which in turn, all makes perfect sense.

It's Dame explaining his version of the story, through his lense, which is certainly going to be bias. Same is true when Cronin gives his version of the story.

How are people so naive to think one side of this mess is the bad guy and the other is the victim? Anyone who thinks this is all on Dame or all on Cronin/Blazers are incredibly closed minded.

 

[PCmor7]

It was reported repeatedly that Joe had not spoken to Miami since Summer League. He NEVER reengaged Miami--the place Dame wanted to go. That's petty.

I'd counter with the fact that the Blazers weren't the ones that wanted to trade Dame. The Heat wanted Dame and Dame wanted traded to the Heat. It seems to me the burden falls to the Heat and Dame to find an offer, like we hear NFL players doing all the time.

I compared this once before to someone telling me my neighbors told them I'm not friendly because I don't say hi to them when I am on my daily run. I asked this someone, "Well, why couldn't they say hi to me?" They could initiate and let me respond.

 

[andalusian]

I'm losing steam here. You Cronin loyalists are tiring me out.

I am not a Cronin loyalist. I am a realist and like to think logically. If Cronin is the guy that does it, I will side with him. If he does not, I will not. I do not think it makes sense to paint us as biased.

Crazy that 10 plus years of goodwill buys you this.

Dame endured an incredible amount of ineptitude. Impatience seems pretty reasonable, ESPECIALLY when you have someone saying they are going to do what you want, which is what Joe kept saying.

It is absolutely fine that he asked for a trade. It is not fine that he did not understand it will take time. It is not fine that he worked to reduce the value of the pick that could have got him what he wanted. It is not ok that he demanded a trade to one team only and screwed the team and the fans he claims to love.

This is logic. This has nothing to do with Cronin or anyone else.

I think you are losing steam because you are trying hard to swim against the current of logic.

 

[blazerkor]

I think this is where things kind of go off the rails with this POV. "Desperate." The Blazers shouldn't have been "desperate." They certainly shouldn't be "desperate" to do something in the interest of one player.

"Desperate" most often leads to extremely damaging mistakes. "Desperate" is a step beyond trading two first-round picks for Robert Covington.

If the best value for the third and 23rd picks was Anunoby and we still had to include sweeteners, that's "desperate" and also might as well just say "dumb." The Blazers have better players and give Dame a better chance to win ultimately by keeping those picks -- it just might be two years down the road when Dame might still be playing at a high level but have a couple of young burgeoning superstars running with him. If the Blazers make the "desperate" move that doesn't make them a real contender and it fails, what is there left to do? Do you think, considering what we've seen from Dame's circle during this, that he was just going to sit back while the player we just acquired to placate him leaves in free agency, "Oh, well, I appreciate you guys trying for me. I'll stay here and play out the rest of my career and you'll never hear a peep from me. I'll even squash all the rumors that are going to come out on social media that I need to be traded where I can get a ring"?

I should have used the word urgent because I didn't see any urgency either and that is what Dame asked for over three years ago.

As far as your assertion of who and what was available it has no weight because we have no idea who and what was available just that it wasn't enough to keep Joe from continuing a youth rebuild. How bad were the deals being offered? We don't know. The few offers that were leaked I'm pretty sure were leaked by us.

That being said, I don't give a fuck anymore. I want our team to do the best with what we have, no one has to be the bad guy. I love the Blazers, I have never been and may never be a huge fan of ownership and management, I am and probably always will be a big fan of Dame.

 

[blazerfan11]

It can be his first priority while still being unwilling to take bad deals and waste assets. That was the Neil Olshey special. Maybe that's why Dame thanked him. Neil was willing to placate to Dame and make shitty moves to keep Dame happy. Robert Covington? Larry Nance? Neil wasted draft picks like they were nothing. Neil was great at talking. Joe is more introverted. He's a numbers guy. He's not a salesman. Neil was a con man. He was great at selling his shitty moves to Dame and to the city. But those moves were garbage. Bad trade after bad trade after bad trade.

Joe could have been doing what he thought was the best path to build around Dame without taking bad deals, but Dame is used to Neil's bullshit and thought Joe was lying or not doing his job. They have different personality types. Those personalities don't always mesh. People process things differently. My wife and I are completely different in how we process things and approach decisions.

I believe in the last two drafts Cronin added the two most talented players Dame has played with since Lamarcus Aldridge.
Cronin re-signed Nurkic, Simons, Grant, and Thybulle.
Cronin drafted 1 point guard, 1 shooting guard, 1 small forward, and 2 power forwards in the last two drafts.
Drafting Scoot was a no-brainer.
I don't consider Simons a point guard, so the Blazers depth at point guard was one player, Dame. That's no way to make a playoff run.

It's on Dame and his sycophants if they think the Blazers should have traded Scoot and Simons for OG Anunoby (if that was even available). That's an absolutely shitty trade in many ways. Cronin didn't promise to jump off a bridge. If that's what Dame wanted Joe to do, he's an asshat.

Dame and Scoot are very different players. Scoot does not replace what Dame does . That's an idiot's take. Scoot attacks the hoop and passes the ball, and Lillard drills 3-pointers from the Logo. Magic Johnson and Norm Nixon weren't as different as Scoot and Dame and they won two titles in three seasons, and might have three-peated if Magic hadn't been injured in the middle season.

It was Dame's way or the highway. He chose the highway and now he wants to play the victim. A sad ending for him as a "leader."

 

[Propagandist]

I am not a Cronin loyalist. I am a realist and like to think logically. If Cronin is the guy that does it, I will side with him. If he does not, I will not. I do not think it makes sense to paint us as biased.



It is absolutely fine that he asked for a trade. It is not fine that he did not understand it will take time. It is not fine that he worked to reduce the value of the pick that could have got him what he wanted. It is not ok that he demanded a trade to one team only and screwed the team and the fans he claims to love.

This is logic. This has nothing to do with Cronin or anyone else.

I think you are losing steam because you are trying hard to swim against the current of logic.

I can't even. Wow.

 

[Strenuus]

I'm fine with both Joe and Dame.

Let's move the fuck on

 

[Propagandist]

I would just like someone to provide me with some sort of proof that a reasonable trade was available that would have made Dame happy and Joe turned it down.

Torey and Eric said that Jaylen Brown wanted to come here. That's fantastic.... what did the Celtics want?

Plenty of reports that Joe offered #3 and Simons to the Nets for Bridges. He was rebuffed.

Reports that New Orleans never offered Zion and only wanted the #3 for future draft assets.

Siakam wouldn't commit to signing here so trading the third pick in the draft for him would have been malpractice.

What other trades are out there? KAT? Paul George? OG? Nobody can provide one damn bit of evidence that Joe wasn't doing his job. All we have is Dame and his feelings. Just because Dame thinks he handed Jaylen Brown to Joe on a silver platter does NOT mean that Boston was willing to play ball. What if Boston wanted Scoot/Sharpe/Simons and picks? Would you do that deal?

The only info we have is from sources you refuse to accept--Goodwin--claiming Joe pursued few if any deals. Another liar on Dame's side, yeah?

 

[andalusian]

I can't even. Wow.

Understood. It's hard to argue with logic.

 

[BassPlaya]

Dame has feelings. So do fans.....and so does Cronin.

 

[Propagandist]

Wow. I’m just gonna end it right here.

That was rude. My fault.

 

[Natebishop3]

It's Dame explaining his version of the story, through his lense, which is certainly going to be bias. Same is true when Cronin gives his version of the story.

How are people so naive to think one side of this mess is the bad guy and the other is the victim? Anyone who thinks this is all on Dame or all on Cronin/Blazers are incredibly closed minded.

Why did anyone have to give their side of the story? Why couldn't Dame just take this amazing opportunity that was given to him in Milwaukee and say his goodbyes? Why did anyone need to toss gas on the fire?

 

[PCmor7]

I'm losing steam here. You Cronin loyalists are tiring me out.

Crazy that 10 plus years of goodwill buys you this.

Dame endured an incredible amount of ineptitude. Impatience seems pretty reasonable, ESPECIALLY when you have someone saying they are going to do what you want, which is what Joe kept saying.

I'm sorry, but that 10 years plus of goodwill went both ways. Dame exerted more influence on this franchise and the moves it made while he was here than any team in the NBA. I'd go so far as to say he had more say on what the Blazers did than LeBron's had with any of his teams. We kept players who weren't particularly good fits because Dame liked them personally. We overpaid for marginal additions because Dame pushed for veterans he liked. We kept his cousin on the roster for two years when his cousin belonged in a rec league.

Dame became a national brand, has one of the most lucrative contracts in the NBA and was largely immune from criticism. A lot of that happened because of Dame, but a lot of that happened because the Blazers gave Dame the platform to make it happen.

And I don't think seeing Dame's warts in this and admitting the stuff he did in this was as detrimental or more detrimental than what the Blazers did makes anyone pro-Cronin. I can't think of any reason off the top of my head why any Blazers fan would take Cronin's side just because they like him or feel they owe it to him, especially with Dame's history here. I think it's more a matter of, at least for me, having to look at what we absolutely know and using deductive reasoning to fill in the blanks and just arriving that the "Dame was done dirty" requires an awful lot of conjecture and absence of reason. It doesn't mean he wasn't really the angel in all of this, but, from what we know and how his people have conducted themselves, that doesn't look likeliest.

 

[Propagandist]

Why did anyone have to give their side of the story? Why couldn't Dame just take this amazing opportunity that was given to him in Milwaukee and say his goodbyes? Why did anyone need to toss gas on the fire?

I had the same thought the second someone sent me the link.

 

[Natebishop3]

The only info we have is from sources you refuse to accept--Goodwin--claiming Joe pursued few if any deals. Another liar on Dame's side, yeah?

I don't trust Goodwin at all. I'm talking about, supposedly, unbiased sources. Not someone in the employ of Dame.

 

[PCmor7]

I should have used the word urgent because I didn't see any urgency either and that is what Dame asked for over three years ago.

As far as your assertion of who and what was available it has no weight because we have no idea who and what was available just that it wasn't enough to keep Joe from continuing a youth rebuild. How bad were the deals being offered? We don't know. The few offers that were leaked I'm pretty sure were leaked by us.

That being said, I don't give a fuck anymore. I want our team to do the best with what we have, no one has to be the bad guy. I love the Blazers, I have never been and may never be a huge fan of ownership and management, I am and probably always will be a big fan of Dame.

"Urgent" definitely is a better word.

I don't know that we can continue to defend Dame's position by continually saying we didn't know who was available. We have several names that have been dropped by reputable, connected NBA beat writers and insiders. We have several scenarios.

I haven't heard one yet, not one, that accomplished what Dame purportedly wanted.

We have names, we have teams and we have possible deals, but we don't have any that would have worked, so why should we keep acting like there might have been some other superstar out there that we could have acquired out there just to keep a purely speculative argument on life support?

 

[Propagandist]

I'm sorry, but that 10 years plus of goodwill went both ways. Dame exerted more influence on this franchise and the moves it made while he was here than any team in the NBA. I'd go so far as to say he had more say on what the Blazers did than LeBron's had with any of his teams. We kept players who weren't particularly good fits because Dame liked them personally. We overpaid for marginal additions because Dame pushed for veterans he liked. We kept his cousin on the roster for two years when his cousin belonged in a rec league.

Dame became a national brand, has one of the most lucrative contracts in the NBA and was largely immune from criticism. A lot of that happened because of Dame, but a lot of that happened because the Blazers gave Dame the platform to make it happen.

And I don't think seeing Dame's warts in this and admitting the stuff he did in this was as detrimental or more detrimental than what the Blazers did makes anyone pro-Cronin. I can't think of any reason off the top of my head why any Blazers fan would take Cronin's side just because they like him or feel they owe it to him, especially with Dame's history here. I think it's more a matter of, at least for me, having to look at what we absolutely know and using deductive reasoning to fill in the blanks and just arriving that the "Dame was done dirty" requires an awful lot of conjecture and absence of reason. It doesn't mean he wasn't really the angel in all of this, but, from what we know and how his people have conducted themselves, that doesn't look likeliest.

So, since we aren't discussing this over a beer, I am coming off REALLY one-sided. But it's hard, there's incoming fire from all directions!

I agree the relationship was good for both parties. Very good, in fact.

And honestly, I think at the heart of this is that Dame got too big for his britches. This is just a power struggle wrapped in a drama.

 

[PCmor7]

So, since we aren't discussing this over a beer, I am coming off REALLY one-sided. But it's hard, there's incoming fire from all directions!

I agree the relationship was good for both parties. Very good, in fact.

And honestly, I think at the heart of this is that Dame got too big for his britches. This is just a power struggle wrapped in a drama.

Yeah, and I apologize because I promised to make one reply to you for that very reason and I think this is my fifth. I think I've said what I felt I needed to add and will leave you at least one direction without fire.

 

[Propagandist]

Yeah, and I apologize because I promised to make one reply to you for that very reason and I think this is my fifth. I think I've said what I felt I needed to add and will leave you at least one direction without fire.

Nah, I got carried away. I don't deal with loss well, it seems. Thanks for listening, guys.

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah, and I apologize because I promised to make one reply to you for that very reason and I think this is my fifth. I think I've said what I felt I needed to add and will leave you at least one direction without fire.

Nah, I got carried away. I don't deal with loss well, it seems. Thanks for listening, guys.

I love you guys. Go Blazers!

 

[blazerkor]

By the way, I'm still extremely excited to see what Joe gets done with Jrue so far this trade (I won't consider it complete until Jrue is moved) has been an absolute masterpiece.

 

[theprunetang]

Nah, I got carried away. I don't deal with loss well, it seems. Thanks for listening, guys.

I got chippy with you as well, so I'm going to join this hug, if that is ok.

 

[BIG Q]

Ayton in town, everybody get over to that thread now, pronto!

 

[Tince]

Why did anyone have to give their side of the story? Why couldn't Dame just take this amazing opportunity that was given to him in Milwaukee and say his goodbyes? Why did anyone need to toss gas on the fire?

I never said anyone had to give their side of the story, this is continues to be your focus when assigning blame, not me; I don't care about that factor. You have yet to say the Blazers should be at fault if they broke a league rule, you want to put the blame on Dame.

Based on your stance, if you read a story about a drunk driver hitting someone, and when the cops came, the passenger told the cops the driver was drunk, you would blame the passenger for the driver getting in trouble, not the driver himself. The passenger didn't have to say something, they could've just walked away, but instead they gave their opinion, therefore they are the bad guy!

 

[maxiep]

It was reported repeatedly that Joe had not spoken to Miami since Summer League. He NEVER reengaged Miami--the place Dame wanted to go. That's petty.

Why was it Cronin's responsibility? If Miami would have wanted Dame so badly, he could have been had. Deliver an offer we couldn't refuse. It's not like they couldn't have let us know, even if we weren't returning their calls.

My guess is they were leaving voicemail messages and Cronin was listening to them. If at any point Miami said something akin to "Hey, let's stop the posturing and get a deal done, we're willing to negotiate", Dame would be in Miami.

 

[maxiep]

It is not when Miami made it known that they do not need to bid against themselves. At this point, why waste time on them?

Exactly right. Miami overplayed its hand. If I had to guess, the Heat did really want Lillard, but they were only going to pay so much for him. Their discipline cost them a shot at Dame. I bet they make a nice offer for Jrue. Riley's a prick, but he's not stupid.

 

[Natebishop3]

I never said anyone had to give their side of the story, this is continues to be your focus when assigning blame, not me; I don't care about that factor. You have yet to say the Blazers should be at fault if they broke a league rule, you want to put the blame on Dame.

Based on your stance, if you read a story about a drunk driver hitting someone, and when the cops came, the passenger told the cops the driver was drunk, you would blame the passenger for the driver getting in trouble, not the driver himself. The passenger didn't have to say something, they could've just walked away, but instead they gave their opinion, therefore they are the bad guy!

Come on man.... really? Comparing this to physically harming someone?

So the Blazers tanking the final 10 games of the season harmed Dame? How so?

How many teams tanked last season? How many teams have tanked in the past 40 years? This isn't drunk driving. This is a standard practice for bad teams to throw in the towel and try to get a better asset at the end of the year. Nobody benefits from drunk driving. It's a ridiculous analogy. But winning meaningless games when your team is already bad can make a huge difference in what kind of pick you get and the future of your team. Dame is crying over spilt milk because he thought they'd use the pick to help build a winner and instead they drafted his replacement.

Did Dame complain publicly when they started tanking? No?

Did Dame stand to gain from the tanking initially? Yes?

Using your own shitty analogy, it's more like Dame was a drunk ass passenger in the car with a drunk driver. The car flipped, he got hurt, and now he blames the driver. He was COMPLICIT in breaking the rules. He didn't have to sit out. He could have played. He could have told the team to piss off.