Notice Joe Cronin New GM

[SharpesTriumph]

Lol Warriors got Bogut back who was the #1 overall pick on a huge (max?) contract, a key starter for title winning teams. Plus they had a core of Steph/Klay/Draymond/Barnes.

Warriors also brought in Andre Iguoadala on a huge contract. They are in a huge market where they can sign Livingston, Jarrett Jack, etc players for the minimum.

Blazer fans think Cronin is using addition by subtraction to build a 73 win warriors team up in Portland?

The rose colored glasses homer fans here are unbelievable.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

GSW when they got rid of Monte Ellis to open time for Steph Curry. Bogut was basically a bust of a #1 pick (7th or 8th year in the league at the time) with a history of many injuries when this trade happened.

Bogut was not a bust, he was resigned after his rookie deal to a huge contract. He was a quality starting center at the least if not more.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

Bogut was not a bust, he was resigned after his rookie deal to a huge contract. He was a quality starting center at the least if not more.

Ya, I mean, he wasn't exactly a #1 pick but he was all nba third team one year and an all nba defensive 2nd team award winner. He was useful. Hart is useful too. But, we will see if he ends up ever making an all nba team or all nba defensive team.

Even if he did, our talent level isn't anywhere near what Golden States was. And like you said, they are more likely to get free agents than we ever will.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Iggy was never their main piece. They also signed him after the Ellis deal.

Nobody suggested there is only 1 way for this to be successful. But history tells us it's a lot easier to win by keeping your all stars than trading them.

The best way to never win a championship is to offload your all stars. You need 2 or 3 to win a title. And it's far easier to keep an all star than get a new one.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Lol Warriors got Bogut back who was the #1 overall pick on a huge (max?) contract, a key starter for title winning teams. Plus they had a core of Steph/Klay/Draymond/Barnes.

Warriors also brought in Andre Iguoadala on a huge contract. They are in a huge market where they can sign Livingston, Jarrett Jack, etc players for the minimum.

Blazer fans think Cronin is using addition by subtraction to build a 73 win warriors team up in Portland?

The rose colored glasses homer fans here are unbelievable.

When asked to provide an example, I did so with a link showing it was perceived as a poor trade for Golden State at the time. But it balanced the roster better.

That is an example of addition by subtraction.

 

[andalusian]

Ya, I mean, he wasn't exactly a #1 pick but he was all nba third team one year and an all nba defensive 2nd team award winner. He was useful. Hart is useful too. But, we will see if he ends up ever making an all nba team or all nba defensive team.

Even if he did, our talent level isn't anywhere near what Golden States was. And like you said, they are more likely to get free agents than we ever will.

Bogut was coming of a 12 games season when he was traded to GSW. He had a 33 games season a couple of years before that - and his first year in GSW he played only 32 games. If that's not a definition of a broken player at the 8th year of their NBA career - I am not sure what is. His average PER at the time (even if we ignore the frequent injuries) was 16. That's a tiny bit above average player in the NBA and especially bad for a center. His best career PER was 20.7 3 years earlier than that trade and that was the only year in his career he cracked 20. Just for a reference, Nurkic which is far from the greatest center in the league had 5 years with a PER > 20 in 8 years. No disrespect, but Bogut at year 8 with all his injuries and Hart at year 5 is equal value.

There was no obvious idea that the talent GSW had at the time was / is more than what Portland has at the moment. Steph was a 21 PER player the year before, Klay was a 16 PER player the year before and Draymond was a rookie. Again, I am not saying it is obvious that the moves for addition by subtraction would work for Portland, but I absolutely reject the idea that it can never happen (as we have shown with GSW) or that it is was obvious at the time GSW had a lot more talent than Portland has now - it certainly was not at the time - and maybe what we have seen from Simons when he was given free reign is really what we can expect from him going forward at a very young age.

Only time will tell and I, for one, am excited to see if this experiment works or not.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

Nobody suggested there is only 1 way for this to be successful. But history tells us it's a lot easier to win by keeping your all stars than trading them.

The best way to never win a championship is to offload your all stars. You need 2 or 3 to win a title. And it's far easier to keep an all star than get a new one.

The best way to get an all star as a small market is through the draft.

That's how we got Roy, Aldridge, Dame, Clyde etc.

Timelines matter though. @THE HCP has routinely said Dame does not want us to use the pick. He wants to win now.

 

[Wade Garrett]

Lol Warriors got Bogut back who was the #1 overall pick on a huge (max?) contract, a key starter for title winning teams. Plus they had a core of Steph/Klay/Draymond/Barnes.

Warriors also brought in Andre Iguoadala on a huge contract. They are in a huge market where they can sign Livingston, Jarrett Jack, etc players for the minimum.

Blazer fans think Cronin is using addition by subtraction to build a 73 win warriors team up in Portland?

The rose colored glasses homer fans here are unbelievable.

If you are gonna use my "addition by subtraction" than use it correctly.
I never said Portland is gonna build a "73 win Warrior team up in Portland".
Quit exaggerating the facts to make your point. That's twice today.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The best way to get an all star as a small market is through the draft.

That's how we got Roy, Aldridge, Dame, Clyde etc.

Timelines matter though. @THE HCP has routinely said Dame does not want us to use the pick. He wants to win now.

Right. We got one in the draft. Getting rid of it isn't likely to be helpful.

I want to win now as well. We'll get a good player for the pick if we trade it, no doubt. And if it doesn't work out, trading that player and Dame for youth and picks will kickstart a rebuild nicely. Everything else would be pretty much the same. We need long 2 way players everywhere else.

This is not a big deal. A year or two isn't going to make a difference. If we get a year or two better than Dame/CJ but still don't quite win a championship that will still be fun. If we miss the playoffs next season Dame and whoever we potentially traded the pick for will be traded for great rebuild assets. Probably just in time for a sale... Or maybe right after the sale.

But it will not be the same old "barely make the playoffs and get blasted" deal.

 

[blazerfan11]

If you are gonna use my "addition by subtraction" than use it correctly.
I never said Portland is gonna build a "73 win Warrior team up in Portland".
Quit exaggerating the facts to make your point. That's twice today.

I hate it when people do that.

 

[blazerfan11]

Lol Warriors got Bogut back who was the #1 overall pick on a huge (max?) contract, a key starter for title winning teams. Plus they had a core of Steph/Klay/Draymond/Barnes.

Warriors also brought in Andre Iguoadala on a huge contract. They are in a huge market where they can sign Livingston, Jarrett Jack, etc players for the minimum.

Blazer fans think Cronin is using addition by subtraction to build a 73 win warriors team up in Portland?

The rose colored glasses homer fans here are unbelievable.

"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making."

 

[SlyPokerCat]

Right. We got one in the draft. Getting rid of it isn't likely to be helpful.

I want to win now as well. We'll get a good player for the pick if we trade it, no doubt. And if it doesn't work out, trading that player and Dame for youth and picks will kickstart a rebuild nicely. Everything else would be pretty much the same. We need long 2 way players everywhere else.

This is not a big deal. A year or two isn't going to make a difference. If we get a year or two better than Dame/CJ but still don't quite win a championship that will still be fun. If we miss the playoffs next season Dame and whoever we potentially traded the pick for will be traded for great rebuild assets. Probably just in time for a sale... Or maybe right after the sale.

But it will not be the same old "barely make the playoffs and get blasted" deal.

I will be pleasantly surprised if we get a year or two of making it to the WCF. I don't see it happening unless we trade for a star to put next to Dame. And even then, a lot of luck would need to go our way.

I'd like to build towards a contender. I just don't see that happening next year, and I don't see us building towards that next offseason either. I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I will be pleasantly surprised if we get a year or two of making it to the WCF. I don't see it happening unless we trade for a star to put next to Dame. And even then, a lot of luck would need to go our way.

I'd like to build towards a contender. I just don't see that happening next year, and I don't see us building towards that next offseason either. I'd love to be proven wrong.

2 out of 3 times getting to the 2nd round would be better than we did with CJ...

I don't think it's likely that anything great is going to happen with current ownership. And we'll be starting from scratch after the team sells. Starting a rebuild right now makes no sense...

Our only hope otherwise is that Cronin is an understated genius and Billups is a far better coach than he's shown thus far.

But, fan is short for fanatic, so here's hoping for best.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Here is what will be fun for me this off-season.

This, from the words of our own GM, isn’t a one year fix, so we will see quickly how they attack the future.

I also think the trade deadline next year will say a lot about the future

 

[Wade Garrett]

I hate it when people do that.

Yeah...
I'm gettin' sick of it too.
I don't mind opposing views, that's what it's all about, but when folks start fabricating, than there is no use of continuing.
This Joe C topic is a "hot" one with me, so I am ready for a debate, 'cos I know I'm in the minority.
Sadly so.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Yeah...
I'm gettin' sick of it too.
I don't mind opposing views, that's what it's all about, but when folks start fabricating, than there is no use of continuing.
This Joe C topic is a "hot" one with me, so I am ready for a debate, 'cos I know I'm in the minority.
Sadly so.

He isn't going anywhere. He will get at least a year or two to figure this out. As it should be.

 

[blazerkor]

OK @KSF-ERIC and the entire big time homer crew this is what I'll give you and it has a lot of ifs. If Joe had Keon scouted to be able to do what he's doing and Justise scouted as being able to play this role... and if he knew he could get Jerami if the pick conveyed or not... the Joe Cronin did a great job with both trades. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say Joe Cronin did a masterful job on his first two trades and the guy he chose to draft with the pick we got by tanking.

 

[blazerfan11]

OK @KSF-ERIC and the entire big time homer crew this is what I'll give you and it has a lot of ifs. If Joe had Keon scouted to be able to do what he's doing and Justise scouted as being able to play this role... and if he knew he could get Jerami if the pick conveyed or not... the Joe Cronin did a great job with both trades. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say Joe Cronin did a masterful job on his first two trades and the guy he chose to draft with the pick we got by tanking.

Luck, both bad and good, is part of being a GM.

 

[HailBlazers]

OK @KSF-ERIC and the entire big time homer crew this is what I'll give you and it has a lot of ifs. If Joe had Keon scouted to be able to do what he's doing and Justise scouted as being able to play this role... and if he knew he could get Jerami if the pick conveyed or not... the Joe Cronin did a great job with both trades. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say Joe Cronin did a masterful job on his first two trades and the guy he chose to draft with the pick we got by tanking.

Just eat the crow and enjoy bro.

 

[blazerkor]

Just eat the crow and enjoy bro.

Oh I'm enjoying it and there's no reason for me to suspect that Joe didn't know all of those things before pulling the trigger on both of those trades. Go Blazers!!! In Cronin We Trust!!!

 

[blazerkor]

I just want to say that as fans with the limited information we had and the past that we'd accepted with Olshey that there was no reason to know that Keon and Justise with their small salaries had more value than Norm and RoCo. Their was also no reason to think that CJ and Larry brought back anything close to what Hart and others equated to, until the Buck's pick for Grant trade transpired.

It seems that Cronin was playing 3D chess and the rest of us checkers because he sent out four rotational players in the league for two, a prospect and a draft pick that then turned into two rotational players and two starters. I'm so happy that Joe made me wrong. This team is obviously better than I could have imagined and I hope they remain exactly that.

 

[BankTeller]

I had overlooked Keon as just a young guy we were getting back to maybe throw in trades down the line. I was unconvinced he could ever become a backup PG. But I’ve been pleasantly surprised that he’s gotten decent opportunities to bring the ball up the court and make plays so early in just his second year.

The shooting percentages don’t bother me. The offensive creativity will come. He’s going to be defending Dame, Ant, and Sharpe in practice—ideally, he fills the GPII role in two years on a GPII-level extension.

This becomes a sneaky good deal if Keon can become a Lu Dort kind of player. There were some on this thread that wanted to trade Ant for him the last two summers.

 

[sheed30]

Just remember, if the Pelicans didn’t make the playoffs we have had another young piece on this team. Too bad that didn’t happen

 

[mook]

I very much misjudged Cronin. Very, very happy to be proven wrong.

It's interesting to think Keon Johnson is two years younger than Nassir, and only a year older than Sharpe. I had written him off as kind of a flyer--and yet I know that if we'd drafted him (particularly under Olshey) we'd have been on the same 2-4 year "let's withhold judgment" plan that we had for guys like Nas, Ant, Zach or Trent. Keon has shown more potential this year than arguably any of those guys did at age 20. He was drafted by one team, traded on draft night to another, and thrown in on a deal to a third team all over the course of 2 seasons. So he's got a weird trade history that doesn't necessarily line up with his upside.

Statistically, he's the worst performer of all guys on our team. But it's not like he's eye-wateringly bad. He does some good things on defense and plays a combo guard kind of style on offense, and like Sharpe he's shown some moves that portend really good things for the future.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Just remember, if the Pelicans didn’t make the playoffs we have had another young piece on this team. Too bad that didn’t happen

Not true. We would have sent that for Grant

 

[Rastapopoulos]

This becomes a sneaky good deal if Keon can become a Lu Dort kind of player. There were some on this thread that wanted to trade Ant for him the last two summers.

I see what you're saying, but Dort is a fucking tank, and Keon is "wears a T-shirt-in-the-pool" skinny.

 

[andalusian]

I see what you're saying, but Dort is a fucking tank, and Keon is "wears a T-shirt-in-the-pool" skinny.

Keon's defense principals seem to be on point. He will never be a huge defender, but he is quick and gets to his point really well. He is going to be a player in this league for a long time.

 

[Tince]

Cronin got absolutely obliterated by Griffin in negotiations. It doesn't matter what any other offers were, he couldn't even negotiate better terms with a team that was willing to give up something valuable if the trade didn't go well. It's an absolute failure and should immediately discredit him from ever touching a GM position again. There is literally no excuse for this blunder.

If CJ & Nance for Hart & Grant is Cronin getting obliterated, I look forward to him making a decent trade.

 

[oldmangrouch]

If CJ & Nance for Hart & Grant is Cronin getting obliterated, I look for to him making a decent trade.

Hart is a clear improvement over Nance - he is just as good while being healthier and more reliable. Right now, Grant is a better fit than CJ. If Grant continues to play like this and re-signs for a reasonable amount, it looks like a win for Cronin. If he turns out to be a one year rental - time to revisit the conversation.

 

[OneSport3]

The only thing about the CJ/Hart trade was the inclusion of Nance. I wished we could have kept Nance. He would have been the absolute perfect fit for this team. Either Joe should have refused to include Nance or insisted that the Pelicans included Trey Murphy. They weren’t going to include Herb Jones.