Notice Joe Cronin New GM

[Phatguysrule]

So give me an example of another trade where the team that accomplished their goal had to give up less when they did so? Should be easy to do, no?

I'm not following you

According to reports, Cronin was operating under the assumption they were going to have two lottery picks. That seems to imply the opposite of what you're trying to excuse.

Well, it was looking pretty likely that we would have 2 picks until the Lakers were unable to get it going. And even after that until the day of the play in game when PG was scratched.

I would have been operating under that assumption at that point as well... But, shit happens.

The Pels aren't stupid. They may have been willing to gamble their pick knowing they controlled their own destiny, but unwilling to leverage the Laker pick.

The same reasons you're claiming Cronin should have included the option mat well be the exact reasons the Pels didn't want to. The odds of them getting 2 lotto picks would have dropped from something like 50/50 to 0.

 

[oldmangrouch]

For those defending the selection, I have a simple question: what did the team gain by giving the job to Cronin without at least interviewing other candidates? Who whispered in Jody's ear and convinced her not one other qualified candidate was interested in the job?

 

[blazerkor]

The NO pick conveys if PG doesn’t contract Covid-19 the day before the game vs the Pelicans. Please show me the predictive model that would have forecasted this.

What lost us the pick isn't what matters... I don't understand why that's so unclear to some of you. The fact that the pick could be lost if the Pelicans did better than expected and that the value of the pick that would convey if we did lose the pick was such a huge drop off when 5 other options with better value were available is what matters.

 

[hoopsjock]

The NO pick conveys if PG doesn’t contract Covid-19 the day before the game vs the Pelicans. Please show me the predictive model that would have forecasted this.

1) It's not a foregone conclusion the Clippers win. Which again goes back to my statement where you have to account for every scenario.

2) The Clippers had a lead against Minnesota with a couple minutes left. If they win that it doesn't matter that PG got Covid.

3) However it happened in hindsight doesn't excuse that a good GM would've negotiated a better deal should it occur.

 

[blazerkor]

For those defending the selection, I have a simple question: what did the team gain by giving the job to Cronin without at least interviewing other candidates? Who whispered in Jody's ear and convinced her not one other qualified candidate was interested in the job?

We can't know for sure what the hiring process looked like and I think the people that believe that there weren't possibly better trades available at the deadline otherwise we would have found them and made them will also be saying some silly shit that resembles that. I mean if there were better GM candidates available that's who would be our GM, right? Obviously that's not right and it does seem like ownership doesn't have any ambition when it comes to how competitive this team is... or Joe's a genius and he's going to surprise us all.

 

[Wade Garrett]

For those defending the selection, I have a simple question: what did the team gain by giving the job to Cronin without at least interviewing other candidates? Who whispered in Jody's ear and convinced her not one other qualified candidate was interested in the job?

What did they gain??
A young GM with connections, and is widely respected around the league.
I saw it every night. Players/coaches from the visiting teams all exchanging pleasantries with him.
The absolutely TRUST him.
A trusted GM is crucial. The Blazers haven't had one since Bucky Buckwalter.
Oh, but ya'll just keep goin' on about what you think you know, how other GM's are gonna line up to "fleece this guy" (i actually saw this in a anti-Joe post!)
I'll just keep goin' on with what I have actually seen.

 

[wizenheimer]

some really revised history in this thread. These were the standings on the day of the trade:



to say the Pelicans KNEW that if they made the playoffs it would be at the expense of the Lakers is bullshit

The Lakers were only a half game behind the Clippers for 8th and AD was back after missing 17 games. And the Lakers led the Pels by 4.5 games. There was a 6 team race for the two play-in spots (7 if you count the Kings). 4-5 teams in the race were going to be in the lottery. The Pels made the playoffs at the expense of the Lakers AND the Spurs AND the Clippers

and since everybody is NOW going ballistic about not having that Laker's pick I'd like anybody going ballistic about it now to point to a post where they were going ballistic about not having back in February. Obviously, nobody here is being paid big bucks to be GM, but if you're all pissed off now you should have been pissed off in February specifically about not having that extra chance of a lottery pick

something else, and I've mentioned this before: since people are pretending that if Portland had the Lakers pick everything would be copacetic...if the Pels would have agreed to convey the better of those picks they would have most definitely made each top-4 protected. So then, if the Lakers jump into the top-4 in the lottery those pretending the Lakers pick is the difference would be ok with the lottery result and wouldn't bitch about it...right?

 

[Tince]

We're not talking about any Olshey trade.

I take it you can't come up with an example either so you have to resort to "you don't know what the GM did" excuses? Again, it doesn't matter, he lost the negotiations, big time.

Example of what?

I have no proof of any negotiations, in favor or against Cronin (or Olshey) . If you have these things, please share it.

 

[Phatguysrule]

For those defending the selection, I have a simple question: what did the team gain by giving the job to Cronin without at least interviewing other candidates? Who whispered in Jody's ear and convinced her not one other qualified candidate was interested in the job?

At the very worst, they have somebody who will be easy to flush when the team sells and didn't waste resources finding somebody else.

 

[Tince]

Lawyers call this an argument that proves too much. Olshey made some horrible mistakes and screwed up our cap space situation in the process. Who was his resident cap expert? The guy who just got handed the job without the franchise even interviewing other candidates.

Re ipsa loquitor.

I do share this concern that Cronin will not be an upgrade and/or will share similar methodology that failed the Olshey era. I do NOT think Cronin is the answer to turning this franchise around.

However, my point is that people still seem to acting as if they know what else was available for CJ, what ownerships directives were, etc. without providing ANY evidence to back up the claim that vastly superior deals were available.

 

[blazerkor]

What did they gain??
A young GM with connections, and is widely respected around the league.
I saw it every night. Players/coaches from the visiting teams all exchanging pleasantries with him.
The absolutely TRUST him.
A trusted GM is crucial. The Blazers haven't had one since Bucky Buckwalter.
Oh, but ya'll just keep goin' on about what you think you know, how other GM's are gonna line up to "fleece this guy" (i actually saw this in a anti-Joe post!)
I'll just keep goin' on with what I have actually seen.

We've all actually seen the returns we didn't get for players that are still productive. Dude, if your insider information is limited to pleasantries, it's not very important information. We all know that Joe didn't put in a good contingency for when the Pelicans made the playoffs. That's bad business. We also all know that the return he got on Norm and RoCo was not overwhelmingly good enough for that deal to be the first deal of the trade season.

We don't need a good guy first and foremost, I would hope that we would make that part of what we're looking for in a GM but we also need a vicious competitor that plans many moves ahead. Maybe that is Joe Cronin because we definitely haven't had enough time to let his master plan unfurl. So maybe those of us criticizing the moves he made at the deadline will look foolish going into next season. Let's hope so but just because everyone likes our GM does not make him a good GM. I'm sure opposing GMs (let's not forget they're our opposition) would really like a guy who was nice and gave them way too much every time they made a trade with him. I'm sure players like a nice GM who overpays them and their agents do too. That shit won't help us. I think most of the GMs in pro sports are fucking killers and will take as much as they can from every team they deal with.

 

[Tince]

We can't know for sure what the hiring process looked like and I think the people that believe that there weren't possibly better trades available at the deadline otherwise we would have found them and made them will also be saying some silly shit that resembles that. I mean if there were better GM candidates available that's who would be our GM, right? Obviously that's not right and it does seem like ownership doesn't have any ambition when it comes to how competitive this team is... or Joe's a genius and he's going to surprise us all.

I don't agree with the majority of your takes, but I certainly agree with the part in bold. My guess is what you wrote (in bold) is why you saw the trades you saw in February and why we're seeing the GM hire we saw today. Why ownership isn't getting near as much flack as Cronin is what shocks me.

 

[TBpup]

Wow we are actually stuck with Sell Low Joe. Poverty franchise.

Between Sell Low Joe and Sleepy Joe, this could be a tough year.

 

[oldmangrouch]

What did they gain??
A young GM with connections, and is widely respected around the league.
I saw it every night. Players/coaches from the visiting teams all exchanging pleasantries with him.
The absolutely TRUST him.
A trusted GM is crucial. The Blazers haven't had one since Bucky Buckwalter.
Oh, but ya'll just keep goin' on about what you think you know, how other GM's are gonna line up to "fleece this guy" (i actually saw this in a anti-Joe post!)
I'll just keep goin' on with what I have actually seen.

I don't know the man, but I am sure you are correct in that he is a better human being than Olshey. Is that enough? Sorry, but I'm not sold.

Are there no assistant GMs around the league who are trust worthy people and who work for well run teams? No matter how you spin it, Cronin has been the XO on a ship that has turned icebergs into an endangered species. What I think I know is that Cronin was near the top of the organizational chart on a poorly run team. Silly me for thinking that is somehow relevant.

 

[blazerkor]

some really revised history in this thread. These were the standings on the day of the trade:

View attachment 47437

to say the Pelicans KNEW that if they made the playoffs it would be at the expense of the Lakers is bullshit

The Lakers were only a half game behind the Clippers for 8th and AD was back after missing 17 games. And the Lakers led the Pels by 4.5 games. There was a 6 team race for the two play-in spots (7 if you count the Kings). 4-5 teams in the race were going to be in the lottery. The Pels made the playoffs at the expense of the Lakers AND the Spurs AND the Clippers

and since everybody is NOW going ballistic about not having that Laker's pick I'd like anybody going ballistic about it now to point to a post where they were going ballistic about not having back in February. Obviously, nobody here is being paid big bucks to be GM, but if you're all pissed off now you should have been pissed off in February specifically about not having that extra chance of a lottery pick

something else, and I've mentioned this before: since people are pretending that if Portland had the Lakers pick everything would be copacetic...if the Pels would have agreed to convey the better of those picks they would have most definitely made each top-4 protected. So then, if the Lakers jump into the top-4 in the lottery those pretending the Lakers pick is the difference would be ok with the lottery result and wouldn't bitch about it...right?

The fact is that not preparing for very real possibilities, even if they seem remote to you, that actually happened is what people are criticizing Joe for. Why couldn't the verbiage have been the highest pick the Pelicans end up with, top 4 protected. Followed by their 2023 first rounder with the Lakers swap top 4 protected, followed by the best pick out of theirs the Lakers or the Bucks in 2024 unless the best pick lands in the top 4 and then the second best. Why not have all of the bases covered? If the Pelicans didn't want to tie up their future picks like we have with contingencies then it's either their pick or the Lakers pick this season top 4 protected if neither conveyed it falls to their pick next season with the Lakers swap unprotected. That's pretty fucking simple and straight forward.

The fact is Cronin failed to protect our interests and we ended up with far less value for CJ and Larry than Joe thought he was getting. That's a big failure.

 

[oldmangrouch]

At the very worst, they have somebody who will be easy to flush when the team sells and didn't waste resources finding somebody else.

An interesting point. If the team is sold within the next 12 months or so, I could buy that. My wild-ass guess is that the team won't be sold until the new TV deal is signed - which means we are stuck in neutral for aonther 3 or 4 years.

 

[blazerkor]

I don't agree with the majority of your takes, but I certainly agree with the part in bold. My guess is what you wrote (in bold) is why you saw the trades you saw in February and why we're seeing the GM hire we saw today. Why ownership isn't getting near as much flack as Cronin is what shocks me.

There is nothing to be critical about towards Cronin today. What you're seeing is a list of reasons why people are upset with ownership today for giving Cronin a four year contract to be our GM. It's on the Vulcans. What Cronin has done is on them as well because he is who they decided to make interim GM during a very important trade deadline. Ownership isn't let off the hook, that's who made the decision today that some of us are so disappointed by. I think many of us are just worried that the quality of moves we've seen so far from Cronin are what we can logically expect going forward and for many of us that's unacceptable. Then there are those in here that think the moves Cronin has already made were acceptable and them stating that is what brings some of us back to criticizing Joe's past.

 

[wizenheimer]

The fact is that not preparing for very real possibilities, even if they seem remote to you, that actually happened is what people are criticizing Joe for.

is it your thinking that I don't know what people are criticizing Joe for? I mean, there have been 3 months of very steady criticisms and those have been repeated over and over. I know it's surprising but I actually 'get it'

you and I have had this discussion many times before, and several times you have said that if the Pels pick had conveyed you'd be OK with the trades....not happy, but ok

so now, in the last couple of weeks, the new goalpost of failure is that Cronin didn't get the Laker's pick. It sure seems reading this thread, that just like with the Pels pick, if the Blazers had the Laker's pick people would be ok with things; not real happy but ok

that's why I'm asking if Portland had the Lakers pick and that pick won top-4 in the lottery (because the Pels would not be so stupid to risk losing a top-4 pick for CJ) would all those people ok with things because of the Laker's pick suddenly go rabid again and start trashing Cronin for not securing an unprotected lottery pick for CJ. Because that would sure match the trend

 

[wizenheimer]

I'm curious, how many times has a non-all-star been traded for a guaranteed lottery pick?

 

[blazedanugz]

is it your thinking that I don't know what people are criticizing Joe for? I mean, there have been 3 months of very steady criticisms and those have been repeated over and over. I know it's surprising but I actually 'get it'

you and I have had this discussion many times before, and several times you have said that if the Pels pick had conveyed you'd be OK with the trades....not happy, but ok

so now, in the last couple of weeks, the new goalpost of failure is that Cronin didn't get the Laker's pick. It sure seems reading this thread, that just like with the Pels pick, if the Blazers had the Laker's pick people would be ok with things; not real happy but ok

that's why I'm asking if Portland had the Lakers pick and that pick won top-4 in the lottery (because the Pels would not be so stupid to risk losing a top-4 pick for CJ) would all those people ok with things because of the Laker's pick suddenly go rabid again and start trashing Cronin for not securing an unprotected lottery pick for CJ. Because that would sure match the trend

preach

 

[blazerkor]

is it your thinking that I don't know what people are criticizing Joe for? I mean, there have been 3 months of very steady criticisms and those have been repeated over and over. I know it's surprising but I actually 'get it'

you and I have had this discussion many times before, and several times you have said that if the Pels pick had conveyed you'd be OK with the trades....not happy, but ok

so now, in the last couple of weeks, the new goalpost of failure is that Cronin didn't get the Laker's pick. It sure seems reading this thread, that just like with the Pels pick, if the Blazers had the Laker's pick people would be ok with things; not real happy but ok

that's why I'm asking if Portland had the Lakers pick and that pick won top-4 in the lottery (because the Pels would not be so stupid to risk losing a top-4 pick for CJ) would all those people ok with things because of the Laker's pick suddenly go rabid again and start trashing Cronin for not securing an unprotected lottery pick for CJ. Because that would sure match the trend

No, the risk that the pick fell all the way to the Bucks 2025 first was always unacceptable. It was unclear what the contingencies on the Lakers pick were so I don't remember harping on that so much after the trade but I was definitely upset that their 2023 pick that could be swapped with the Lakers wasn't the first fall back and that one of the two and preferably the best of the two picks they have in 2024 weren't mentioned either. I'm even pissed that in 2025 we don't get the better of theirs or the Bucks first rounder. Joe didn't cover anything. He counted on something that didn't happen and set up a very weak contingency and while I wasn't thinking about the Lakers pick at that time and therefore the goalposts seem to have moved, I'm not fucking paid to know when and how picks become available. The guy we just gave a four year contract to is.

 

[julius]

I'm curious, how many times has a non-all-star been traded for a guaranteed lottery pick?

. CJ was worth what he got. Sure he had a good stretch with the Pelicans, before the playoffs, but he has a bloated contract.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Me thinks Chauncey is actually the GM and Cronin is the cap guru with the GM title.

Not a horrible thought process

 

[blazerkor]

One thing that I don't know is what Joe is getting paid. Maybe that's all that mattered to the Vulcans. Maybe Joe just took way less than the going rate for a GM and/or doesn't have guarantees on his contract to make the team easier to sell to someone who has a GM in mind. I guess who the fuck knows. All we can do now is hope for good luck next week and then hope Joe does really good things with whatever we end up with.

 

[blazerkor]

Not a horrible thought process

Yeah, I think after the draft or maybe we'll have to wait until after the beginning of free agency, when we have our next presser about players that we've added it will be interesting to see who does most of the talking and what words are being used when discussing the process that was used for the draft/trade/free agent signing period.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I'm curious, how many times has a non-all-star been traded for a guaranteed lottery pick?

Trick question. A "guaranteed" lotto pick is pretty much impossible. It also isn't the issue. The issue is that it wasn't guaranteed that we would get ANY pick. This was obviously not an unforseeable possibility, but the only protection the Blazers had was that their lotto pick this year would turn into a (probable) non-lotto pick years down the road.

NO thought CJ was worth risking a pick in the 10-14 range this draft. Either they were supremely confident they were going to make the play-offs, or they thought that was his true value. Either way, why would they hold up the deal over giving the Blazers some protection?

It is possible that the Vulcans ordered that a deal be made without regard to getting value (non monetary) in return. It is possible they ordered Cronin to trade CJ to the team he wanted. I don't absolve the Vulcans for their role in this. I do find it troubling that Cronin either thought this was a good approach, or has so little credibility in Seattle that he couldn't talk them out of it.

Hell - it's all irrelevant anyway. The choice is made and it will not change until the team is sold.

 

[Wade Garrett]

I don't know the man, but I am sure you are correct in that he is a better human being than Olshey. Is that enough? Sorry, but I'm not sold.

Are there no assistant GMs around the league who are trust worthy people and who work for well run teams? No matter how you spin it, Cronin has been the XO on a ship that has turned icebergs into an endangered species. What I think I know is that Cronin was near the top of the organizational chart on a poorly run team. Silly me for thinking that is somehow relevant.

Fair enough.
I can respect that.

 

[Wade Garrett]

We've all actually seen the returns we didn't get for players that are still productive. Dude, if your insider information is limited to pleasantries, it's not very important information. We all know that Joe didn't put in a good contingency for when the Pelicans made the playoffs. That's bad business. We also all know that the return he got on Norm and RoCo was not overwhelmingly good enough for that deal to be the first deal of the trade season.

We don't need a good guy first and foremost, I would hope that we would make that part of what we're looking for in a GM but we also need a vicious competitor that plans many moves ahead. Maybe that is Joe Cronin because we definitely haven't had enough time to let his master plan unfurl. So maybe those of us criticizing the moves he made at the deadline will look foolish going into next season. Let's hope so but just because everyone likes our GM does not make him a good GM. I'm sure opposing GMs (let's not forget they're our opposition) would really like a guy who was nice and gave them way too much every time they made a trade with him. I'm sure players like a nice GM who overpays them and their agents do too. That shit won't help us. I think most of the GMs in pro sports are fucking killers and will take as much as they can from every team they deal with.

I understand these sentiments.
I guess one reason I harp on the "nice...trusted guy.." thing is because, well, in todays NBA, it just may be the most important traits a GM can have.
The league is 100% about relationships.
Honest.
(edit): Make that 120%.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I understand these sentiments.
I guess one reason I harp on the "nice...trusted guy.." thing is because, well, in todays NBA, it just may be the most important traits a GM can have.
The league is 100% about relationships.
Honest.
(edit Make that 120%.

I don't doubt that. I have long suspected that Olshey (and KP) sometimes sabotaged themselves.

 

[hoopsjock]

is it your thinking that I don't know what people are criticizing Joe for? I mean, there have been 3 months of very steady criticisms and those have been repeated over and over. I know it's surprising but I actually 'get it'

you and I have had this discussion many times before, and several times you have said that if the Pels pick had conveyed you'd be OK with the trades....not happy, but ok

so now, in the last couple of weeks, the new goalpost of failure is that Cronin didn't get the Laker's pick. It sure seems reading this thread, that just like with the Pels pick, if the Blazers had the Laker's pick people would be ok with things; not real happy but ok

that's why I'm asking if Portland had the Lakers pick and that pick won top-4 in the lottery (because the Pels would not be so stupid to risk losing a top-4 pick for CJ) would all those people ok with things because of the Laker's pick suddenly go rabid again and start trashing Cronin for not securing an unprotected lottery pick for CJ. Because that would sure match the trend

1) I brought up the Lakers pick the day of the trade and have been mentioning ever since. This isn't moving the goal posts.

2) If Cronin had the hindsight to have the Lakers pick as backup with that same top-4 protection I would have given him credit for at least trying to cover as many possibilities as he could. It would've sucked still but at least it wouldn't have been for a lack of trying.

3) The Pelicans ended up giving the 15th pick for the right to overpay Devonte Graham. It's not like Cronin was negotiating against a good GM known for winning trades. CJ and Nance by themselves are each more valuable than Graham, let alone both.