Trade Josh Hart traded to the Knicks

[Rastapopoulos]

No, not only that. He loves to play with effort. Lack of effort was in Blazers culture for some time now. Grant fits Blazers culture much better

I thought we were talking about good players.

 

[B-Roy]

Josh Hart would not have walked if the Blazers were willing to pay him. You can argue it was unreasonable to pay Grant + Hart + Simons + Nurkic 95 million. I'm not arguing that, but the Blazers had a choice and they chose other (less impactful) players over Hart.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Josh Hart would not have walked if the Blazers were willing to pay him. You can argue it was unreasonable to pay Grant + Hart + Simons + Nurkic 95 million. I'm not arguing that, but the Blazers had a choice and they chose other (less impactful) players over Hart.

One does have to wonder what might have been if instead of trading Hart at the '23 deadline, we had somehow been able to swing a deal for Ayton at that point. Does Dame decide to stay if a Grant-Hart-Ayton front line is in place? And are we better off?

 

[Phatguysrule]

But.... We did give him up for essentially nothing.

We gave him up for a draft pick, right? We gave him up for an opportunity to draft the next Giannis or Jokic. We got Kris Murray. But that's what most people get in the draft. Getting that opportunity was worth sending a great guy like that to a place he wanted to go when he had already told us we were going to lose him for nothing.

I miss him. I'm glad he's happy and doing well. I'm glad we got the opportunity. I hope Kris Murray develops into something good.

*Edit* Wait, we also got Thybulle. He's not Josh Hart, but I like him.

 

[Phatguysrule]

We gave him up for a draft pick, right? We gave him up for an opportunity to draft the next Giannis or Jokic. We got Kris Murray. But that's what most people get in the draft. Getting that opportunity was worth sending a great guy like that to a place he wanted to go when he had already told us we were going to lose him for nothing.

I miss him. I'm glad he's happy and doing well. I'm glad we got the opportunity. I hope Kris Murray develops into something good.

Or... Ayton, Randle, Grant, ?????, Dame

Any chance we could have picked up Thybulle after already trading CJ for Randle? Would he be able to hit wide open 3s in that line-up?

 

[andalusian]

Josh Hart would not have walked if the Blazers were willing to pay him. You can argue it was unreasonable to pay Grant + Hart + Simons + Nurkic 95 million. I'm not arguing that, but the Blazers had a choice and they chose other (less impactful) players over Hart.

1. We heard his wife wanted to be on the east coast anyway, so him staying is still a speculation - because it seems they would have had to overpay massively to do that, especially when we know that his best friend was in NY and his best friend's father runs NY and wanted him - so he would have had an NBA job no matter what in a place his wife wanted to go.
2. At the time, they were still trying to build around Dame - and I am certain they thought Grant is what Dame wanted (because, that's what he wanted) over Hart.

So, let's not rewrite the decision history without acknowledging that where the Blazers were at the time is different from where they are now.

 

[andalusian]

Not sure why you think those should be separate discussions. Those are very obviously connected in my mind and I would hope our front office does the basic evaluation of potential available players at the pick they acquire before making such a trade.

Because they are. They made the Grant over Hart decision with the idea that they want to build around Dame - and it was the right decision for that. Once Dame went away - everything else change.

So, the decision to get something for Hart instead of letting him walk for nothing (given that the Blazers did not have the money to pay him and Grant) was the right one. These are separate decisions - and the one about Hart makes sense given everything we know of Hart's preferences and what the Blazers were trying to do at the time. You combining them in your mind is, frankly, a you problem.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Because they are. They made the Grant over Hart decision...

I guess I've never seen why that had to be one-or-the-other, unless we're just assuming that Jody was absolutely unwilling to pay the tax, even for an "all-in" type team.

 

[andalusian]

I guess I've never seen why that had to be one-or-the-other, unless we're just assuming that Jody was absolutely unwilling to pay the tax, even for an "all-in" type team.

Exactly. I do not believe that Jody / the Vulcans were willing to go deep into the tax with that team. I have certainly used that as an axiom in that argument.

Now, if we are willing to entertain that Jody / the Vulcans are willing to go deep into the tax, I would argue that no-one would even care about the Blazers because we would all be watching exotic locales from our flying cars, eating gourmet dinners produced by our food replicators while beautiful ladies, gentlemen or both pleasure us. So, yes, that was the assumption.

 

[wizenheimer]

Because they are. They made the Grant over Hart decision with the idea that they want to build around Dame - and it was the right decision for that.

I'm skeptical that was the situation. My hunch is by the time of the Hart trade...in fact, well before the trade...Cronin had already decided to try and maneuver Dame into a trade demand. I think trading away Hart was signal that Dame was going to be traded, and drafting Scoot was the 2nd step of the post-Dame era

offering Hart a 20M/year extension may or may not have kept him in Portland. I'm thinking probably not, but 20M/year is a lot of money

re-signing Grant to a 5 year/160M deal after trading Hart and Dame didn't make a damn bit of sense to me; it still doesn't. But Grant was the end result of Cronin's first trade deadline when he dumped CJ-Powell-RoCo-Nance...and got a raft-full of criticism for those trades so my guess is he wasn't willing to let Grant walk in order to save face

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Exactly. I do not believe that Jody / the Vulcans were willing to go deep into the tax with that team. I have certainly used that as an axiom in that argument.

Now, if we are willing to entertain that Jody / the Vulcans are willing to go deep into the tax, I would argue that no-one would even care about the Blazers because we would all be watching exotic locales from our flying cars, eating gourmet dinners produced by our food replicators while beautiful ladies, gentlemen or both pleasure us. So, yes, that was the assumption.

Even operating under that assumption, we paid Thybulle and Murray a combine 5M less than Hart made this year. That doesn't feel like an insurmountable cost difference, especially considering that keeping Hart probably means we don't team for Scoot, meaning we pay our ?7th? pick several million less than we paid him.

 

[Natebishop3]

Just so we're clear.... these stats are worth $20 million a year on a rebuilding team?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Just so we're clear.... these stats are worth $20 million a year on a rebuilding team?

View attachment 64525

If we had kept Hart, traded for Ayton, and not drafted Scoot, would we be a rebuilding team?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Just so we're clear.... these stats are worth $20 million a year on a rebuilding team?

View attachment 64525

1. You're assuming he would put up identical stats on a rebuilding team.
2. You're assuming we would be just as bad if we kept Hart.
3. Given that New York is ECSTATIC they have Hart, despite the stats that you apparently think are laughable, it seems that they're not an accurate measure of his worth.

 

[andalusian]

If we had kept Hart, traded for Ayton, and not drafted Scoot, would we be a rebuilding team?

My guess, treadmill team.

 

[andalusian]

I'm skeptical that was the situation. My hunch is by the time of the Hart trade...in fact, well before the trade...Cronin had already decided to try and maneuver Dame into a trade demand.

Well, I find it hard to think of Cronin as both a manipulative mastermind and also an idiot that made stupid draft mistakes. I think it is Occam's razor, Cronin had to try and stay under the tax and also try to appease Dame - and that's the route he tried to navigate. Unfortunately for him, luck (Wemby) did not fall his way and Dame made enough noise before that people were not that excited to compete for the 3rd pick, so it's value was diminished.

But, speculation about manipulation motives or not, Hart, I do not think, was eager to stay here anyway, so getting an asset for him was the right move.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

So, you would rather have let him walk than take a flyer on a player that might, or might not pan out?

I'd have resigned Hart for a fraction of what Grant got and ditched Grant.

We got the worse player of the two on a much larger contract.

Kind of impressive Cronin has assembled a 21 win team that is in the luxury tax.

 

[andalusian]

I'd have resigned Hart for a fraction of what Grant got and traded Grant away for Jalen Duren.

Well, Hart got 66% of what Grant got, so. the fracion is 2/3 - not exactly a huge discount. Add the fact that there is no way Detroit (who traded Grant to us, reminder) was going to reverse it to send Duren our way. So, I guess, it's always nice to fantasize, but maybe that's not the right thread for it.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

So your issue has nothing to do with Hart and getting something for him, it's with the decision to go for KM. I have not watched enough of the dreck the Blazers peddled this year to really form an opinion, but as I said, the Hart move was 100% understandable and correct. They did not lose an asset for nothing.

If they later made a bad decision with that asset (and again, I am not going to argue for or against it), that's a very different discussion. It has nothing to do with the correct decision to get an asset for a player that would have walked for nothing otherwise.

Blazers could have easily signed Josh Hart - they chose to have him go elsewhere.

Since the Blazers acquired Hart less than a year prior - why have him be the primary player acquired in return for CJ? That makes the CJ move all the dumber if the main player we acquired is just going to leave for nothing.

None of Cronin moves fit in a logical plan - although I'm fine with the Dame trade/Scoot/Sharpe picks.

 

[andalusian]

Blazers could have easily signed Josh Hart - they chose to have him go elsewhere.

Correct.

Since the Blazers acquired Hart less than a year prior - why have him be the primary player acquired in return for CJ? That makes the CJ move all the dumber if we acquired a player that is just going to leave for nothing.

Because given the cap, in order to start a restructure (which turned into a rebuild), you need to get rid of bad / unfitting bits, and whenever mistakes need to be made, it's never a pain-free process.

None of Cronin moves fit in a logical plan - although I'm fine with the Dame trade/Scoot/Sharpe picks.

Disagree. I think they made a lot of sense given the shit he inherited. I think the illogical bit is the people that expected it to be a quick and easy process.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

One does have to wonder what might have been if instead of trading Hart at the '23 deadline, we had somehow been able to swing a deal for Ayton at that point. Does Dame decide to stay if a Grant-Hart-Ayton front line is in place? And are we better off?

Rumor was Dame didn't like Ayton and was big on Nurk.

Probably as stupid as LeBron pushing the Lakers to trade away all their title winning role players for Westbrook.

Thats why GM's should run the team and not let stars decide roster moves.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Because they are. They made the Grant over Hart decision with the idea that they want to build around Dame - and it was the right decision for that. Once Dame went away - everything else change.

So, the decision to get something for Hart instead of letting him walk for nothing (given that the Blazers did not have the money to pay him and Grant) was the right one. These are separate decisions - and the one about Hart makes sense given everything we know of Hart's preferences and what the Blazers were trying to do at the time. You combining them in your mind is, frankly, a you problem.

Grant as the foundation of building a contender around Dame is a horrible decision, not sure how you can call that right.

Hart made sense on a ton of rosters, paired in backcourts with short guards (Dame/Ant/Scoot/CJ/etc) and Hart was young enough to make sense if we were winning now or in future season of a rebuild.

 

[andalusian]

Grant as the foundation of building a contender around Dame is a horrible decision, not sure how you can call that right.

It was right if you wanted to keep Dame who wanted Grant.

Hart made sense on a ton of rosters, paired in backcourts with short guards (Dame/Ant/Scoot/CJ/etc) and Hart was young enough to make sense if we were winning now or in future season of a rebuild.

Agree. But he did not make sense on a roster built around Dame that needed to be within the tax limit imposed by management with Dame endorsing Grant.

 

[andalusian]

Thats why GM's should run the team and not let stars decide roster moves.

It's not like you would not hear complaints about that, like the Complaints we hear about Cronin not willing to trade the #3 for some sub-par veteran to keep Dame.

The most likely scenario, they tried to appease Dame within the constraints they had, it failed, Dame pushed for more veteran moves, the FO decided that enough was enough and they were not going to repeat the NeO mistake or selling picks for cheap for a RoCo like package and the star (Dame) requested a trade.

So, in reality, both scenarios likely played here. They tried to appease the star, when it was clear it was not a great move (Let's face it, LaGDame is not great at GMing) - they went the other way and he wanted out.

 

[B-Roy]

One does have to wonder what might have been if instead of trading Hart at the '23 deadline, we had somehow been able to swing a deal for Ayton at that point. Does Dame decide to stay if a Grant-Hart-Ayton front line is in place? And are we better off?

Suns did not seem ready to move off Ayton at that point, certainly not for a package we could have come up with.

 

[B-Roy]

1. We heard his wife wanted to be on the east coast anyway, so him staying is still a speculation - because it seems they would have had to overpay massively to do that, especially when we know that his best friend was in NY and his best friend's father runs NY and wanted him - so he would have had an NBA job no matter what in a place his wife wanted to go.
2. At the time, they were still trying to build around Dame - and I am certain they thought Grant is what Dame wanted (because, that's what he wanted) over Hart.

So, let's not rewrite the decision history without acknowledging that where the Blazers were at the time is different from where they are now.

Blah blah blah. All BS excuses to make it seem like he wouldn't have taken the same deal the Knicks offered him.

Hart said he just wanted to be WANTED. There have been numerous sources that said Hart just wanted a long term commitment and to know he was staying put for the next few years of his playing career. The Blazers never offered that to him nor did they ever make it seem like Hart was part of their long term plans.
While he was here (And even after), Hart sung praises about the organization and the people. He loved (loves) Damian Lillard. You don't think he would have wanted to stay if the Blazers made him feel wanted?

I don't doubt that he, in a vacuum, enjoys NY more than Portland, but the Blazers could have kept Hart if they wanted to. I will die on that hill.

 

[B-Roy]

Just so we're clear.... these stats are worth $20 million a year on a rebuilding team?

View attachment 64525

He's more impactful on the floor than just about every player on our roster, stats be damned.

His stats sucked with us last year too but every impact and on/off stat had him as the 2nd or 3rd best player on the roster after Dame.

 

[Natebishop3]

If we had kept Hart, traded for Ayton, and not drafted Scoot, would we be a rebuilding team?

The reports are that Dame didn't want Ayton.

 

[Natebishop3]

Blah blah blah. All BS excuses to make it seem like he wouldn't have taken the same deal the Knicks offered him.

Hart said he just wanted to be WANTED. There have been numerous sources that said Hart just wanted a long term commitment and to know he was staying put for the next few years of his playing career. The Blazers never offered that to him nor did they ever make it seem like Hart was part of their long term plans.
While he was here (And even after), Hart sung praises about the organization and the people. He loved (loves) Damian Lillard. You don't think he would have wanted to stay if the Blazers made him feel wanted?

I don't doubt that he, in a vacuum, enjoys NY more than Portland, but the Blazers could have kept Hart if they wanted to. I will die on that hill.

I just disagree. There was plenty of smoke that his wife didn't want to come out west. Was it worth the risk of letting him walk for nothing?

 

[Natebishop3]

This shit has honestly been the most tiresome part of this season.

Not the losing.

Not the struggles of Scoot.

Not the coaching.

It has been the endless whinging about what may or may not have been available from Miami, and this rehashing of Hart. I really don't understand the point of it.