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honkicracker said:
(only responding because again, a poster on s2 puts words in my mouth. Who knew that would happen.)

First off... I said average defender, and average shooter. You can't possibly be saying Harkless is an above average shooter can you? While I don't think so, I could see Harkless as an above average defender... But not shooter, Career 31% shooter from three is not average in the NBA. Harkless isn't even shooting a career high from three this year.... And he's still just league average.... If you say, "oh well philly is paying for potential because Harkless is young".. Well there are plenty of young players they could get with that pick... Could they not? I mean it's a "deep draft"............................

But to humor you... players who are better/equal to harkless that haven't/have entered their prime.
Carrol, Barnes, Gallo, Wiggins, Crowder, Batum, Hayward, Harris, Shumpert, Parker, Ross, Turner.
I'm sure if I wasn't thinking of names off the top of my head I could come up with more average defenders/shooters who play SF that haven't/have entered their prime. I wonder if any of the players I named foul as much as Harkless has this year? Maybe I'll look it up later...
Harkless is an average small forward in the NBA... there are plenty in the league... If there wasn't then Harkless would have actually got an offer in RFA from a team not named the Portland TrailBlazers. Instead he received no other offer.


I actually understood it perfectly. What you didn't understand/read is that if the draft is so "deep" then Philly could find a average small forward on a rookie contract. Which, and I'm sorry I don't understand business... Or so I've been told on these boards. A rookie contract is less $$$ than an average of 10.5 million a year correct. With just as many years as Harkless is under due to TO.
Maybe not the top pick? But def anywhere that Protected Laker pick could land....
But hey... Philly could also get a chance at that top 7 pick or did you say 6? I'd say keeping that pick has far more value than letting it go for an average NBA SF when there are plenty of them around... Business + a chance Philly lands in the range "before the big drop off".
(BTW, the "no drop off between 8-20" is really a poor opinion, so far from the draft... To name a few things that can improve draft stock... Combine & workouts. So I just don't believe that.. Rivers is a prime example as to why I don't believe it.. Yes I could name others... Theres at least one on the Blazers)

I find it funny that you're using one of the worst organizations in the NBA as an example... When is the last time(outside of DMC) that Sac drafted a good NBA player? Oh I know, the guy every other organization passed on at least once as well... Yet couldn't play for them... But is now on the Celtics tearing it up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Kings_draft_history

TL;DR
More value for Philly in keeping the pick and having a chance to land before the "big drop off".
More value for Philly in keeping the pick and landing outside the "big drop off", yet still in the lotto.
Harkless is an average defender & shooter, names listed above.
Harkless + pick won't net a defensive stud like Noel + a pick that has a chance to get in before expects say there is a "big drop off".
If WoJ somehow announces in a couple hours on twitter that Portland has acquired Noel+Lakers protected pick for Harkless+pick I'll happily eat crow.
But it aint happening.
Click to expand...
And I think they'd rather have Harkless+Lydon+Hart over Noel+Markkanen. There's a few guys lower than 7th that will be better than Harkless, we just don't know who. Put one specific player (Anunoby, Markkanen, Bridges, etc.) against Harkless, and I like Harkless odds to be a better player. You don't?
 
Either there show casing Okafor that had 35 minutes and Noel only 13 minutes Okafor put some really good stats Noel limit time was very impress with 12 boards no blocks.
 
I think we may be making too much of Harkless being held out; it appears he really did have an injury.

here is what Harkless said: "It’s been bugging me for the past few games. I’ve been played through it, but it’s starting to get worse."
I think if he was being traded that he would be too annoyed to make any comment.
 
Sarni said:
What's his value though? Maybe a late second round pick. He hasn't been able to play all season and will likely be unavailable until next season. Even getting him for next season makes little sense as he will take $7M of cap space and may never play.
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I think what he was debating Yuan was trading a first-round pick for a second round pick. Not Festus' value.

Boob-No-More said:
I've referred to Jahlil Okafor as Marreese Speights 2.0. Very similar players, very similar production at a comparable age. Ironic that Speights also started his career in PHI.
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This is one of the few times I'll disagree with you. While their production maybe comparable Speights has really been just regulated to a high post power forward that can stretch out almost to three-point range. He does not have the back-to-the-basket ability nor the faceup driving ability that Okafor has. Also, JO has HANDLES. Better handles than Plumlee. Okafor can score in so many more ways than Speights. He's much better IMHO and has FAR more upside.
 
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RR7 said:
We can agree to disagree, I suppose. Plenty of players with a smaller wingspan, reach, or height that play sf.
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You might only be able to name 1 or 2 sf in the top-15 in the league that he can guard. end of story. That is not the case with the 2 guard position. He's too small too slight. There are guys who are shorter who play bigger but AC is not a 3 will never be a 3. but go ahead trot out the worst defense in the league that'll show me
 
BonesJones said:
"There are many young players his size in the league, who are average shooters(for a season), who rarely can get their own shot, who are average defenders, and who foul a lot."

Shumpert? Not young, 4 inches shorter
Gallo? Not going, bad defender
Barnes? $22M a year
Wiggins, Hayward? Not attainable
Carroll? Not young, mor expensive
Batum? $25M a year, not young
Harris? 5 inches shorter
Parker? Not attainable
Ross? Below average defender, shorter, probably not attainable
Turner? Not young, $16M a year not adverb an average shooter

So how is there so many better options for Philadelphia for their SF of the future?
Click to expand...

You're just making things up now to try and win on the internet, that's cool idc. I'm actually enjoying trying to talk basketball.
26 is young/in prime. As they have two, four year contracts coming still at minimum... Some could even be max contracts(Batum) at 30-32. 4-8 years is SF of the future.
Being listed at 6"5 is not 4 inches shorter. Regardless though, same size.
Harris is also listed at 6"8.
If attainable was a requirement, then you're going to need to put more on that trade idea of yours to acquire Noel+ a 1st rounder lotto pick.(unless Philly magically becomes Sacramento)
Turner & Harkless are pretty much the same player. Minus Turner actually being able to pass the ball. Both are career below average shooters.
Yeah some of the players I listed off the top of my head are making a couple million more than Harkless' average of 10.5 a year.
Point is these players here are either equal in value or have more value than Harkless. Taking into consideration the amount of RFA offers Harkless got.
I believe the players I have listed would fit far better next to Embiid/Simmons than Harkless would. Heck even AC would.
Jae Crowder can't believe I forgot him.
Taking the business side into consideration again.
Better for Philly to sign a vet instead of tying up 10.5m a year for four years in a below average shooter, and an average defender(at best).

Very much have to disagree with you on Harkless developing into an above average shooter, as well as having no weaknesses... He has plenty of them.(shooting, dribbling, shot creation, passing, defensive&offensive awareness in off-the-ball situations) Granted you could say some of the same things about almost every wing I have listed... Some better than others, but the point stands.
Harkless has shown so far as much as Aminu(i'll give you the couple % difference) did last year. We see where his % are now.


I'm not going to talk about the trade idea you posted anymore.
You posted it. I don't think it's enough to get Noel + a pick.
You defended it. I gave reasons why I believe you're overvaluing Harkless, by listing similar players who are better or as good as Harkless. (those players also have weaknesses just like Harkless does.)
Just agree to disagree.
 
dviss1 said:
I think what he was debating Yuan was trading a first-round pick for a second round pick. Not Festus' value.



This is one of the few times I'll disagree with you. While their production maybe comparable Speights has really been just regulated to a high post power forward that can stretch out almost to three-point range. He does not have the back-to-the-basket ability nor the faceup driving ability that Okafor has. Also, JO has HANDLES. Better handles than Plumlee. Okafor can score in so many more ways than Speights. He's much better IMHO and has FAR more upside.
Click to expand...

Yeah that was a hyperbole by me. I just reckon Ezeli is worth nothing right now in the market.
 
honkicracker said:
You're just making things up now to try and win on the internet, that's cool idc. I'm actually enjoying trying to talk basketball.
26 is young/in prime. As they have two, four year contracts coming still at minimum... Some could even be max contracts(Batum) at 30-32. 4-8 years is SF of the future.
Being listed at 6"5 is not 4 inches shorter. Regardless though, same size.
Harris is also listed at 6"8.
If attainable was a requirement, then you're going to need to put more on that trade idea of yours to acquire Noel+ a 1st rounder lotto pick.(unless Philly magically becomes Sacramento)
Turner & Harkless are pretty much the same player. Minus Turner actually being able to pass the ball. Both are career below average shooters.
Yeah some of the players I listed off the top of my head are making a couple million more than Harkless' average of 10.5 a year.
Point is these players here are either equal in value or have more value than Harkless. Taking into consideration the amount of RFA offers Harkless got.
I believe the players I have listed would fit far better next to Embiid/Simmons than Harkless would. Heck even AC would.
Jae Crowder can't believe I forgot him.
Taking the business side into consideration again.
Better for Philly to sign a vet instead of tying up 10.5m a year for four years in a below average shooter, and an average defender(at best).

Very much have to disagree with you on Harkless developing into an above average shooter, as well as having no weaknesses... He has plenty of them.(shooting, dribbling, shot creation, passing, defensive&offensive awareness in off-the-ball situations) Granted you could say some of the same things about almost every wing I have listed... Some better than others, but the point stands.
Harkless has shown so far as much as Aminu(i'll give you the couple % difference) did last year. We see where his % are now.


I'm not going to talk about the trade idea you posted anymore.
You posted it. I don't think it's enough to get Noel + a pick.
You defended it. I gave reasons why I believe you're overvaluing Harkless, by listing similar players who are better or as good as Harkless. (those players also have weaknesses just like Harkless does.)
Just agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
You need to start condensing your posts lol.

Shumpert, at 6'5, isn't 4 inches shorter than Harkless, who's 6'9?

Turner and Harkless are not even close to being the same player.

Batum isn't gonna be that good 4 years from now (he's already not worth his contract). He won't be in the league 8 years from now.

I quoted you. All the players you named have failed to meet the conditions that YOU SET. You said there's many wings the same size as Harkless, then listed Crowder, who's 3 inches shorter.

AC would fit just as well, but is twice as expensive. That matters.

And no, I'm not trying to "win on the internet". That cracked me up. Just because I discuss a different viewpoint means I'm just trying to "win on the internet"??? I don't even know what you mean by that.
 
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dviss1 said:
This is one of the few times I'll disagree with you. While their production maybe comparable Speights has really been just regulated to a high post power forward that can stretch out almost to three-point range. He does not have the back-to-the-basket ability nor the faceup driving ability that Okafor has. Also, JO has HANDLES. Better handles than Plumlee. Okafor can score in so many more ways than Speights. He's much better IMHO and has FAR more upside.
Click to expand...

I agree that Okafor still has some untapped upside. He's still very, very young. He was actually my preseason pick to win ROY last year. I figured he'd start for PHI, and with his offensive skill set. lead his team and all rookies in scoring.

He definitely has better handles than Mo Buckets, but Speights played closer to the basket his first couple of years in the league than he does now. Still, you're right, Okafor does score more in the low post than Speights did at a comparable age. You forced me to look it up. His first year in the league, Speights average FG distance was 8.0 feet and Okafor's was 6.3 feet. For the first 7 years of his career, Speights average FG distance crept up slightly from 8.0 to 10.4 feet. He has really expanded his range in the last two seasons. He only made 19 total three pointers in his first seven seasons, but made 24 last year and has already made 57 this year. Adding the 3-pointer to his arsenal has also pushed his average FG distance all the way out to 15.6 feet - nearly 2x what it was his rookie year. So, clearly his game has evolved away from the basket over the course of his career.

Perhaps Oakafor's game will stay closer to the basket, but he has regressed this year. Perhaps that's due to coming back from his injury. Last year PHI forced Noel to play out of position at PF, so Okafor could play his natural center position. Noel's performance suffered at both ends of the court, but until his injury, Okafor was having a very good rookie year - at least at the offensive end. The sample size is small, but so far, Okafor doesn't appear to be a good fit next to Embiid either. On paper, it looks like it could work, but on the court, PHI has had much more success pairing Embiid with Noel in the starting line up.

Honestly, if I was PHI, unless either Okafor or Noel was going to get me a near all star wing in return, something they desperately need, I wouldn't be in a hurry to trade either. Since they were winning with Embiid and Noel starting, stick with that combo and bring Okafor off the bench to back up both players. Not sure how Okafor would feel about that role but with his scoring talent against other teams' second units, he would definitely have 6th Man of the Year Potential.

But then, what do they do with Saric, especially after Ben Simmons comes back? Maybe he's the guy they should be looking to trade. Unfortunately for them, his trade value is much lower than Noel's or even Okafor's. They really spent way too many high lottery picks on guys 6'10" and above, but in hindsight, those picks, other than Saric over Zach LaVine, were all pretty spot on. Maybe they should have traded down and taken Devin Booker in 2015, but with Noel and Embiid both having injury histories, even Okafor made sense at the time.

Plus, now they have a surplus of talented young bigs and they can flip one of them for a proven wing player. Let's hope Noel is the one they flip and they flip him our way.

BNM
 
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=juzrdhr

POR 2017 first to Miami
CLE 2017 first to Philly

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zby3fw7

I'm a bit of a Hield homer, love his game.


Then call Tony Wroten and Mitch McGary and see if they want to play for an NBA team again to fill the roster.

Lillard / Napier / Wroten
CJ / Hield / Connaughton
Harkless / Turner / Layman
Aminu / Davis / McGary
Whiteside / Leonard

IR: Ezeli (would love to see if we could move him to a team that wants an expiring contract.)
 
BonesJones said:
You need to start condensing your posts lol.

Shumpert, at 6'5, isn't 4 inches shorter than Harkless, who's 6'9?

Turner and Harkless are not even close to being the same player.

Batum isn't gonna be that good 4 years from now (he's already not worth his contract). He won't be in the league 8 years from now.

I quoted you. All the players you named have failed to meet the conditions that YOU SET. You said there's many wings the same size as Harkless, then listed Crowder, who's 3 inches shorter.

AC would fit just as well, but is twice as expensive. That matters.

And no, I'm not trying to "win on the internet". That cracked me up. Just because I discuss a different viewpoint means I'm just trying to "win on the internet"??? I don't even know what you mean by that.
Click to expand...

If you put Moe Harkless into a google search, the quick bio that appears on the right of the screen says he's 6"8.
Turner & Harkless are inconsistent shooters.
Turner can make plays for others, Harkless can't.
Turner can get his own shot consistently, Harkless can't.
Turner can dribble, Harkless doesn't because he knows it's not a strength of his.
Both are average defenders.
You're right. Turner is better than Harkless.

I set conditions, and you then added conditions. Perhaps I should have been more specific, but I didn't realize you were going to attempt to nitpick 2 years of age, and 2-3 inches of height in an attempt to "win on the internet". Laugh all you want, it's not like you added conditions or anything.(attainable, thinking a player is old because 26 years old) I also question if Harkless is really 6"8, it's not like the people who list height of nba players have ever exaggerated height before.
I mean shit, a few years ago Felton grew 4 inches during the game..
I apologize for being able to name off the top of my head a multitude of players who are the same size as Harkless. I guess I should know less basketball... Or at least point it out less.
 
honkicracker said:
If you put Moe Harkless into a google search, the quick bio that appears on the right of the screen says he's 6"8.
Turner & Harkless are inconsistent shooters.
Turner can make plays for others, Harkless can't.
Turner can get his own shot consistently, Harkless can't.
Turner can dribble, Harkless doesn't because he knows it's not a strength of his.
Both are average defenders.
You're right. Turner is better than Harkless.

I set conditions, and you then added conditions. Perhaps I should have been more specific, but I didn't realize you were going to attempt to nitpick 2 years of age, and 2-3 inches of height in an attempt to "win on the internet". Laugh all you want, it's not like you added conditions or anything.(attainable, thinking a player is old because 26 years old) I also question if Harkless is really 6"8, it's not like the people who list height of nba players have ever exaggerated height before.
I mean shit, a few years ago Felton grew 4 inches during the game..
I apologize for being able to name off the top of my head a multitude of players who are the same size as Harkless. I guess I should know less basketball... Or at least point it out less.
Click to expand...
LMAO. You're underrating the many things Harkless does better.

Harkless is a better finisher.
Harkless is more athletic.
Harkless is bigger.
Harkless moves great off the ball and is a great cutter.
Harkless can score out of the post.

We were talking about trade targets for the 76ers, so why would you bring up unattainable players in a way to suggest that they're better trade targets for the Sixers? You said they're are many guys that are just as young and big as Harkless, then proceeded to name guys like Shumpert who are 3 inches shorter and 3 years older. That's a big difference. You literally set those conditions, then just brought up random wings (suggesting they're better trade targets for the 76ers) that were either unattainable or don't have the qualities Harkless has.

Sure you can list wings that are just as big, but that's not really relevant to the conversation we started with. You're all over the place.

Also, I wasn't the dude who said you don't know basketball, that was someone else. Stop referencing that it in every goddamn post you reply to me with.
 
I'm just assuming we can't get shit for our guys so NO isn't going to panic and instead wait for peoples contracts to look much more palatable, which will definitely happen this off season as they all lose a year and the cap goes up and we get more Mozgov type deals thrown around.
 
BonesJones said:
LMAO. You're underrating the many things Harkless does better.

Harkless is a better finisher.
Harkless is more athletic.
Harkless is bigger.
Harkless moves great off the ball and is a great cutter.
Harkless can score out of the post.

We were talking about trade targets for the 76ers, so why would you bring up unattainable players in a way to suggest that they're better trade targets for the Sixers? You said they're are many guys that are just as young and big as Harkless, then proceeded to name guys like Shumpert who are 3 inches shorter and 3 years older. That's a big difference. You literally set those conditions, then just brought up random wings (suggesting they're better trade targets for the 76ers) that were either unattainable or don't have the qualities Harkless has.

Sure you can list wings that are just as big, but that's not really relevant to the conversation we started with. You're all over the place.

Also, I wasn't the dude who said you don't know basketball, that was someone else. Stop referencing that it in every goddamn post you reply to me with.
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Athletic sure, 1 inch bigger(According to google mini bio) sure.
Finisher/cutter They're at least equal.
Also Turner can score in the post with post moves. Quite a few Celtic highlights of him in the high post scoring on youtube.

Outside of Wiggins/Hayward really the rest of the players I mentioned are far from "unattainable".
The only reason why teams might not accept Noel + lakers protected pick would be if they didn't like Noel, or had a better player already on the roster.
I listed players that while they had weaknesses and some things Harkless does better than those players... Those players also do things better than Harkless.
We're not talking about Leonard/KD/PG/LBJ here. Talking about role playing wings on teams who are average nba players. Which outside of Wiggins/Hayward.. That's exactly who I listed. I bet fans from the respective teams of players I listed would argue just like you are for Harkless being worth a lot more than he is.
 
honkicracker said:
Athletic sure, 1 inch bigger(According to google mini bio) sure.
Finisher/cutter They're at least equal.
Also Turner can score in the post with post moves. Quite a few Celtic highlights of him in the high post scoring on youtube.

Outside of Wiggins/Hayward really the rest of the players I mentioned are far from "unattainable".
The only reason why teams might not accept Noel + lakers protected pick would be if they didn't like Noel, or had a better player already on the roster.
I listed players that while they had weaknesses and some things Harkless does better than those players... Those players also do things better than Harkless.
We're not talking about Leonard/KD/PG/LBJ here. Talking about role playing wings on teams who are average nba players. Which outside of Wiggins/Hayward.. That's exactly who I listed. I bet fans from the respective teams of players I listed would argue just like you are for Harkless being worth a lot more than he is.
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Harkless is 6'8.75 in shoes with a 7'0 wingspan
Turner is 6'7 in shoes with a 6'8 wingspan.

So Harkless is 1.75 inches taller, and his arms are 4 inches longer. So there's a bigger size difference than you suggest.
Carroll, Parker and Batum are definitely unattainable for Noel + Right to Swap picks.
Harkless is a better option for them than Gallo, Shumpert, and Harris, due to his upside, youth, and ability to grow with the Sixers core, and being the best, most defensively versatile big wing defender out of the bunch.
So you came up with Barnes and maybe Terrence Ross as attainable trade assets for the 76ers that are (almost) as young as Harkless, and near the same size with the ability to shoot and defend at an average level (Barnes is a worse 3pt shooter than Harkless, Ross is a worse defender). However, Barnes makes $13M more per year and Ross makes a couple million more.
 
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