Meyers Extended

[Sarni]

I see that he's a very polarizing player here. I personally don't love or hate him, I think he's a solid talent that could develop into a useful player but will still take time. He wasn't a great draft selection but considering who went below him there wasn't that much choice. Yes, Draymond Green was #36 and Jae Crowder went #34 but nobody had expected them to be this good back then. Otherwise you have players like Lamb, Marshall, Henson, Zeller right below him and none of them are great. Royce White went #16 and he was scared of flying.

 

[Denny Crane]

If Meyers played for Thibs as a rookie, he'd be an incredible player right now. Thibs basically made Asik into a useful player, even a starter. Leonard has more offensive ability than Omer Asik did/does, and he's got the agility to be an even better defender.

The Blazers chose to use a longer development path for Meyers, which isn't wrong. They had LMA and RoLo ahead of him, at least, and were going all in for a chance to win a championship.

Leonard is on the team for the rest of his new contract, at least. Get used to it.

He doesn't seem to be a bad guy. I don't see the point in rooting against him.

 

[Sarni]

If Meyers played for Thibs as a rookie, he'd be an incredible player right now. Thibs basically made Asik into a useful player, even a starter. Leonard has more offensive ability than Omer Asik did/does, and he's got the agility to be an even better defender.

The Blazers chose to use a longer development path for Meyers, which isn't wrong. They had LMA and RoLo ahead of him, at least, and were going all in for a chance to win a championship.

Leonard is on the team for the rest of his new contract, at least. Get used to it.

He doesn't seem to be a bad guy. I don't see the point in rooting against him.

I'm not sure he will last 4 years. At some point we will have to trim our salary total and he could well be used as a trade asset in a league where stretch 4/5s are valued.

 

[blue9]

I'm not sure he will last 4 years. At some point we will have to trim our salary total and he could well be used as a trade asset in a league where stretch 4/5s are valued.

I think the part in bold are opposing ideas. I do agree that we'll have to trim the salary, what with Crabbe/Turner contracts taking up too much space. Meanwhile Meyers is on a relatively cap-friendly deal - especially if he continues to improve. If we were to trade Meyers it would likely be for someone (DMC) who makes substantially more than Meyers - which flies in the face of the idea of trading him to reduce team salary.

With Plumlee's impending pay day looming on the horizon, and Ezeli offering more defense at the same price as Davis, I think at least one of Plumlee/Davis gets traded in a package. With Meyers/Ezeli we have offense/defense on great contracts. I like both Plumlee and Davis, but if Olshey thinks Plumlee might get a near-MAX contract next summer it's probably wiser to trade him now. And Davis, bless his heart, just isn't skilled enough to warrant playing time at this point. Unless things work out really well with Crabbe I think we package him with one of Plumlee/Davis and possibly Aminu in order to bring back a legit PF.

 

[Sarni]

I think the part in bold are opposing ideas. I do agree that we'll have to trim the salary, what with Crabbe/Turner contracts taking up too much space. Meanwhile Meyers is on a relatively cap-friendly deal - especially if he continues to improve. If we were to trade Meyers it would likely be for someone (DMC) who makes substantially more than Meyers - which flies in the face of the idea of trading him to reduce team salary.

With Plumlee's impending pay day looming on the horizon, and Ezeli offering more defense at the same price as Davis, I think at least one of Plumlee/Davis gets traded in a package. With Meyers/Ezeli we have offense/defense on great contracts. I like both Plumlee and Davis, but if Olshey thinks Plumlee might get a near-MAX contract next summer it's probably wiser to trade him now. And Davis, bless his heart, just isn't skilled enough to warrant playing time at this point. Unless things work out really well with Crabbe I think we package him with one of Plumlee/Davis and possibly Aminu in order to bring back a legit PF.

With Ezeli we have to remember that it's only 2 years we will have him for a good price. After 2018 he will be earning a lot more too if he plays well here.

$10M is a good contract for Meyers but I think that we could package both him and Crabbe in a deal for someone top quality at some point in future and that could reduce our wage bill.

Plumlee will go this year I suspect. He will get $12M+ next year and we won't have the money to give it to him with CJ also due for renewal.

 

[Schilly]

Could be that someone formed an opinion of him shortly after drafting him. That person could also be stubborn and unwilling to admit maybe they weren't 100% right, and rather than doing so continues the same stance and argument as the early complaint. Lord knows it's more important to stand your ground than to be wrong.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Oscar was 8th on our team in real plus minus stat. 10th this year if you were to include Ezeli and Turner. Dude is amazing and was a great lottery pick

By definition, RPM attempts to isolate a players performance from that of his better, or worse, teammates. Other advanced stats also show that Meyers gets outperformed individually by his man, but the team, as a whole, benefits from the spacing he creates.

Meyers was 7th on the team in RPM (not counting Kaman due to the small sample size), but if this is your new go to stat for bashing Meyers, you must REALLY hate Dame, Turner and Crabbe.

Meyers was 9th on the team in minutes played, 7th in RPM (230th of 462 players, RPM = -1.08). He just got a $41 million contract.

Dame was 2nd on the team in minutes played, 5th in RPM (87th of 462 players, RPM = 1.31) and is on a $126 million (at least) contract.

Using Turner's numbers from BOS, he would have been 4th on the team in minutes played and 7th in RPM, behind Meyers (280th of 462 players, RPM = -1.62) and just signed a $70 million contract.

Like Leonard, Crabbe was a bench player. He was 7th on the team in minutes played and 8th in PRM (358th of 462 players, RPM = -2.40) and just signed a $75 million contract.

If you're going to use RPM as an indicator of value, Meyers sure looks like a hell of a bargain. Thanks for pointing that out. Based on this stat, it sure looks like Neil fucked up and severely overpaid both Turner and Crabbe. So, why aren't you constantly bashing them the same way you do Leonard?

Harkless is the interesting one. We already know what Crabbe and Leonard got. Harkless had the best RPM of the three, but barely. He was very close to Meyers in RPM (6th on the team, 224 of 462 players at -1.0). It will be interesting to see if his contract is closer to Meyers or Crabbe.

As I said, I excluded Kaman from the rankings because of the small sample size (he only played 112 minutes all season - Dame played 109 minutes before November 1) and the fact that he won't be on our roster next season.

Still, I seriously question any stat that says Ed Davis, Mason Plumlee and Al-Farouq Aminu are "better" than Damian Lillard. They are all good role players, but any stat that says they contribute more to the team's success than Lillard, is fundamentally flawed. As you'd likely say, it doesn't pass the "eye test".

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

He doesn't seem to be a bad guy. I don't see the point in rooting against him.

The point is being "right" on the internet. Some posters are so invested in their negativity they actually take delight in a player on their favorite team failing, just so they can eventually say, "See, I told you so!!!! I am an online god and you all suck. Yay me!!!!!".

It's a really odd behavior and runs counter to the definition of a fan - someone who fanatically supports his team beyond reason. By that definition, a fan would want every player on the team to be successful and exceed all expectations, because if players perform well, it benefits the team. But, for some people, being "right" is more important than team success. They take pleasure in seeing certain players fail even though it's not in the best interest of the team they supposedly support.

BNM

 

[Mediocre Man]

The point is being "right" on the internet. Some posters are so invested in their negativity they actually take delight in a player on their favorite team failing, just so they can eventually say, "See, I told you so!!!! I am an online god and you all suck. Yay me!!!!!".

It's a really odd behavior and runs counter to the definition of a fan - someone who fanatically supports his team beyond reason. By that definition, a fan would want every player on the team to be successful and exceed all expectations, because if players perform well, it benefits the team. But, for some people, being "right" is more important than team success. They take pleasure in seeing certain players fail even though it's not in the best interest of the team they supposedly support.

BNM

I've already admitted I was wrong on Leonar_. I never thought he'd be close to being a below average NBA player.

 

[Nikolokolus]

The point is being "right" on the internet. Some posters are so invested in their negativity they actually take delight in a player on their favorite team failing, just so they can eventually say, "See, I told you so!!!! I am an online god and you all suck. Yay me!!!!!".

It's a really odd behavior and runs counter to the definition of a fan - someone who fanatically supports his team beyond reason. By that definition, a fan would want every player on the team to be successful and exceed all expectations, because if players perform well, it benefits the team. But, for some people, being "right" is more important than team success. They take pleasure in seeing certain players fail even though it's not in the best interest of the team they supposedly support.

BNM

On the one hand you are arguing against negativity as being "no true fan" and then claim that fandom is "supporting your team beyond reason." I don't have a problem with those assertions, but neither has anything to do with team success.

 

[Mediocre Man]

The point is being "right" on the internet. Some posters are so invested in their negativity they actually take delight in a player on their favorite team failing, just so they can eventually say, "See, I told you so!!!! I am an online god and you all suck. Yay me!!!!!".

It's a really odd behavior and runs counter to the definition of a fan - someone who fanatically supports his team beyond reason. By that definition, a fan would want every player on the team to be successful and exceed all expectations, because if players perform well, it benefits the team. But, for some people, being "right" is more important than team success. They take pleasure in seeing certain players fail even though it's not in the best interest of the team they supposedly support.

BNM

By definition, a fan would be someone who says below average players are better than what they really are.

A true fan would want that player replaced with someone better

 

[Boob-No-More]

On the one hand you are arguing against negativity as being "no true fan" and then claim that fandom is "supporting your team beyond reason." I don't have a problem with those assertions, but neither has anything to do with team success.

That's true, but a fan wants his team to succeed. They may, or may not actually succeed, but it foes against the definition of being a fan to root for your team to fail. Which is one reason I hate tanking, or any system that potentially rewards losing on purpose.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

By definition, a fan would be someone who says below average players are better than what they really are.

A true fan would want that player replaced with someone better

Or, to see that player improve since we just renewed their contract for four more years.

BNM

 

[Nikolokolus]

That's true, but a fan wants his team to succeed. They may, or may not actually succeed, but it foes against the definition of being a fan to root for your team to fail. Which is one reason I hate tanking, or any system that potentially rewards losing on purpose.

BNM

Not liking a player and wishing they weren't on the team is not the same thing. We both want the team to succeed, but maybe I tend to think in longer time horizons than a lot of people do I guess? I want the team to win a championship at any cost, even if that means sucking for 4-5 years in a row in the hopes of drafting the next Lebron or Kevin Durant (and maybe a couple of other studs too). What I get down about is a team overpaying its roleplayers just to tread water as a second tier team. At this point the only hope I see for the Blazers to contend any time soon is some miracle consolidation trade with CJ as the centerpiece.

Frankly, I admired the hell out of Sam Hinkie's plan in Philly and thought it takes some real pain tolerance to try and pull something off that audacious. Ironically enough, he might have even set them up with Simmons, but won't get to reap the reward.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I've already admitted I was wrong on Leonar_. I never thought he'd be close to being a below average NBA player.

Depends on how you determine "average". Problem is, in spite of many attempts to do so, there isn't a single stat that accurately captures that. In some ways Meyers is better than average in some ways, he's worse.

The good news is he's still young, has shown improvement and exceeded your expectations. He still has more room to improve, and thus further exceed your expectations, and is not ridiculously overpaid given his skill set and role on the team.

Given the salary cap and other restrictions on player movement, it's not always as simple as replacing someone with a "better" player. After signing Turner and Crabbe to their huge contracts, and also adding Ezeli, we had to use Leonard's Bird rights to go over the cap and sign him to his new contract. I don't remember the exact number, but I think we were down to about $3 million in cap space, maybe less. We couldn't just go out and sign someone else to a comparable contract. We also couldn't trade Meyers, because he wasn't under contract. Maybe eventually, Neil trades Meyers for someone "better", or maybe Meyers continues to improve and becomes a "better" player and outperforms his contract.

In either case, Neil, Paul and Terry all thought Meyers was worth retaining at $41 million over the next four years. In his time in Portland, Neil has yet to sign anyone to a ridiculously bad contract. He let Wes, Lopez and Afflalo all walk when other teams overpaid them. He seems to have a good handle on what players are worth in the current market and manages his roster accordingly. Right now, Leonard's contract looks about right, given the current market. He didn't get close to Turner or Crabbe, who were both bench players last year, money. He basically got 8th or 9th man money, and when your 8th or 9th man is an average, or nearly average NBA player, that's a decent value. Time will tell if it was an exceptional value, either exceptionally good, or exceptionally bad. I'm hoping Meyers continues to improve and we look back on this signing three or four years from now and all agree that Neil knew what he was doing.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Not liking a player and wishing they weren't on the team is not the same thing. We both want the team to succeed, but maybe I tend to think in longer time horizons than a lot of people do I guess? I want the team to win a championship at any cost, even if that means sucking for 4-5 years in a row in the hopes of drafting the next Lebron or Kevin Durant (and maybe a couple of other studs too). What I get down about is a team overpaying its roleplayers just to tread water as a second tier team. At this point the only hope I see for the Blazers to contend any time soon is some miracle consolidation trade with CJ as the centerpiece.

Frankly, I admired the hell out of Sam Hinkie's plan in Philly and thought it takes some real pain tolerance to try and pull something off that audacious. Ironically enough, he might have even set them up with Simmons, but won't get to reap the reward.

We have a different perspective. I want the team to win every game, or at least as many as possible. Losing sucks, and deliberately losing for YEARS does not guarantee winning a title. How many teams have actually won a championship by being one of the 4 worst teams in the league year after year, after year? Did the Clippers do it? They sucked for decades, and while they are better now, that fan base suffered through 20+ years of 2o-win teams and they still haven't won a title, or even advanced past the second round, and it took a trade by a desperate, bankrupt team to get them where they are now.

LeBron just became the first player taken in the top three in the last 19 years (first since Duncan) to win a championship for the team that drafted him and that took 13 years and him leaving and sucking for four more years so the team could get 3 more #1 overall picks in four years. Even in Duncan's case, it took more than just winning the lottery at the right time to grab an all-time great. It took an injury to David Robinson, at just the right time, so they could add Duncan to what was already a 60-win team.

Short of a superfriends hookup (not happening in Portland), the consolidation trade you mention, along with internal improvement of our young players, is our best shot at winning a title. And, we don't have to suck for years to do it. Accumulating young assets on reasonable contracts is the key to a consolidation trade. So, if that's what your goal is, you should be happy about the Leonard signing. He's a young 7-footer on a decent contract locked up for four years. That's a tradeable asset. Definitely better than letting him walk for nothing and signing a scrub on a minimum contract to fill out our roster.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

I want the team to win every game, and try to win every game, and try to field a team that's capable of winning every game.

The time to worry about next season starts with the trade deadline and is what we deal with in the offseason.

I'd take Leonard over anyone we could reasonably replace him with at the contract amount.

Plus he and I are both Illini alums.

 

[42N8Bounce]

We're all fans on this board. The beauty of this forum is that we all see the game and players a bit differently. That's what makes it interesting to me. End result is that we all want what is best for the team (that may be I the short or long term).

No player is 'above average' in every category. Meyers certainly does some things very well, and others things he does pretty poorly. After watching him his rookie year, I would have traded him for a bag of peanuts. And I really don't care for peanuts.

Although he's not one of my favorite players, I thing he's a stand up guy trying his best. He seems to like Oregon, and represents our team well.

At the rate we signed him to, I'm happy to have him on the roster.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I want the team to win every game, and try to win every game, and try to field a team that's capable of winning every game.

This. Not once in my entire time of being a fan have I ever rooted for the team to lose. Not even during the Kevin Pritchard or Kaleb Canales coached tankathons. It's just not in my nature. I can't cheer for my team to lose, even if it means an extra ping pong ball or two in some random drawing a few months in the future.

I want them to win always, every single time they set foot on the court, even during preseason and summer league. Practical? Oh, hell no. Since when does being a sports fan have to be practical?

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

This. Not once in my entire time of being a fan have I ever rooted for the team to lose. Not even during the Kevin Pritchard or Kaleb Canales coached tankathons. It's just not in my nature. I can't cheer for my team to lose, even if it means an extra ping pong ball or two in some random drawing a few months in the future.

I want them to win always, every single time they set foot on the court, even during preseason and summer league. Practical? Oh, hell no. Since when does being a sports fan have to be practical?

BNM

Pete Rose ran out every ground ball and pop fly.

 

[riverman]

This. Not once in my entire time of being a fan have I ever rooted for the team to lose. Not even during the Kevin Pritchard or Kaleb Canales coached tankathons. It's just not in my nature. I can't cheer for my team to lose, even if it means an extra ping pong ball or two in some random drawing a few months in the future.

I want them to win always, every single time they set foot on the court, even during preseason and summer league. Practical? Oh, hell no. Since when does being a sports fan have to be practical?

BNM

I did wish for Raymond Felton to be benched or traded..there's nobody on the current roster I dislike...

 

[BBert]

I did wish for Raymond Felton to be benched or traded..there's nobody on the current roster I dislike...

Did you ever see the vids of the Knicks fan commentary on Felton's play? Comedy gold.

 

[dviss1]

ML can spread the floor but he not same player that draft out of college. The kid I seen in college did have a low post offense and block shot. But that not the same player when he got here on this team. He has to play center especially defense. Lambeer stretch the floor when play for Detroit but he still was there center. We can have Dame CJ ET Aminu and ML on the floor at the same time. Stotts scheme is getting back on defense he sends one guy to the offense board. Talking about spreading the floor there you go.

The kid you saw in college absolutely did not have a post game.

 

[dviss1]

Did you ever see the vids of the Knicks fan commentary on Felton's play? Comedy gold.

Link?

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

The kid you saw in college absolutely did not have a post game.

Google search Meyers Leonard post moves, click videos. I only got the phrase mentioned once about how he worked on them prior to last season I think it was.

NOT ONE FUCKING VIDEO OF HIM POSTING UP IN A GAME.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

The second video was about Meyers and Dorrell Wright shooting threes after practice.

 

[dviss1]

Google search Meyers Leonard post moves, click videos. I only got the phrase mentioned once about how he worked on them prior to last season I think it was.

NOT ONE FUCKING VIDEO OF HIM POSTING UP IN A GAME.

It's a weakness.

 

[dviss1]

I Desperately want Leonard to succeed.....





































































































So we can package him up for DMC.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

It's a weakness.

I think the Blazers have to share some of the blame here, but they gave him 40 million bucks so I can't feel too sorry for him.

 

[ripcityboy]

Apparently, Beibs is going to grow go hair out long and watch a lot of film..... maybe he should check out the first Conan the Barbarian.