Game Thread NBA PLAY-IN - PELICANS @ CLIPPERS - APRIL 15, 2022 - FRIDAY - 7:00 PM (PDT) TNT (1 Viewer)

[illmatic99]

If we move him in the offseason, we'd have to take back over 26 million in contracts to kitchen his deal. Which shoots our next year's salary through the roof. And makes it more difficult to retain both ant and nurk AND make other moves to improve the team.

you're telling me this move that he made would not have been available at the draft?

 

[Graduate32]

Where was the pressing need to dump CJ this season? You make it seem like there was some mandate to tank and get him off the roster asap.

I don't necessarily think there was a mandate in reality, but I'd encourage you to go back and read the board from Dame's injury on. There was an overwhelming desire from almost every sector to move on from CJ ASAP, and I guarantee that people would be equally flustered with Cronin if he hadn't traded CJ.

I also don't think CJ's value was ever going to be higher in the future than it was in February. Heck, if you talk diehard fans of other teams, most saw CJ on his contract as negative value. Hart, financial flexibility, and draft assets (even if they turn out minor) are at least positive value.

 

[RR7]

you're telling me this move that he made would not have been available at the draft?

In order to create added flexibility, expiring contract was needed. Satoransky s expiring would nit be able to be moved at the draft

 

[HoopsFanAZ]

The options for CJ at the deadline had been reported as Gallinari+filler+pick from Atlanta, Powell+Kleber/(maybe Hardaway?)+distant first from Dallas and the New Orleans deal. I can absolutely guarantee that this board would have been going bezerk if we had kept CJ past the deadline, and the same posters blasting Cronin now would be blasting him if he had turned down all offers and hadn't made a move.
[…]
We can argue that Cronin should have negotiated for better terms after this season, but what if NOP simply says no. New Orleans was certainly interested in CJ, but I've never gotten the impression that they HAD to have him. NOP could have easily said, "meh, if you like those other deals better, we're fine." I'd still prefer Hart, the Milwaukee pick, and additional cap flexibility (along with the seconds, etc.) to the other offers.

I really didn’t like trading Powell. The rest … okay. I do like Hart as 3rd guard. And I’m not against getting Grant for the Pelican Pick. That means there’s plenty to disagree with me about.

I’ve moved on to having hope in the draft lottery and an improved team. Charlotte getting a non-lottery pick still wakes up the next day still being Charlotte. The Pels losing tonight but getting into the top 4 would have Laker lovers in full outrage mode … which would be hilarious and comforting in their misery. I’ll have to settle for the Blazers getting the Pelican Pick and having Cronin draft either Sochan or Jovic.

 

[wizenheimer]

You're acting as if the only three teams in the NBA are us, the Pelicans and the Clippers... I think it's been made pretty clear that for Joe and CJ the Pelicans were the only option because of some bullshit loyalty but really there was no reason to take these deals. One was just pure shit and the other is still and was at the time very precarious. At the trade deadline the Lakers were already melting, they were four games under .500 and had just lost to us. If Cronin couldn't foresee that CJ would make the Pelicans a threat to make the playoffs that's even more damning, isn't it?

I've said before I think Cronin might have been able to extract a little more from the CJ trade. Maybe as much as getting the better of the Pels and Laker picks, both protected for top-4; if neither conveys then the Laker 2024 pick. But maybe that would have been asking too much. I certainly don't think Cronin could have got an unprotected pick for CJ. Nobody would pay a top-4 pick for CJ.

but another poster here listened to Jake Fisher on a podcast and Fisher talked about a couple of other offers he heard about. One was from Atlanta that was Gallinari, filler, and a future 1st. The other was from Dallas that was Powell, Kleber and a future pick

I like Powell, but those 2 trades don't seem as good as what Portland got from the Pels. Maybe Powell is better than Hart, maybe not. Obviously, Nance has to factor in but he simply doesn't have much value. Olshey was a fucking idiot to trade a 1st that was obligated for 7 years for Nance

so, it you believe Fisher then the market for CJ was not good which is what some of us have suspected all along

 

[illmatic99]

I don't necessarily think there was a mandate in reality, but I'd encourage you to go back and read the board from Dame's injury on. There was an overwhelming desire from almost every sector to move on from CJ ASAP, and I guarantee that people would be equally flustered with Cronin if he hadn't traded CJ.

I also don't think CJ's value was ever going to be higher in the future than it was in February. Heck, if you talk diehard fans of other teams, most saw CJ on his contract as negative value. Hart, financial flexibility, and draft assets (even if they turn out minor) are at least positive value.

This is what I had said prior to the moves:

http://www.sportstwo.com/threads/rebuild-around-dame.372282/#post-5289372

6. I don't trade CJ until the summer unless an obvious deal (Simmons/Siakam) presents itself. I don't see too many teams interested in him right now, while more might be inclined in the summer. But he eventually has to go.

 

[illmatic99]

In order to create added flexibility, expiring contract was needed. Satoransky s expiring would nit be able to be moved at the draft

Fine, but i mean this is pedantic at this point if we're gonna say that we HAD to trade him to the Pels. If CJ had improved his value as he has now, perhaps other deals would have presented themselves.

 

[RR7]

I really didn’t like trading Powell. The rest … okay. I do like Hart as 3rd guard. And I’m not against getting Grant for the Pelican Pick. That means there’s plenty to disagree with me about.

I’ve moved on to having hope in the draft lottery and an improved team. Charlotte getting a non-lottery pick still wakes up the next day still being Charlotte. The Pels losing tonight but getting into the top 4 would have Laker lovers in full outrage mode … which would be hilarious and comforting in their misery. I’ll have to settle for the Blazers getting the Pelican Pick and having Cronin draft either Sochan or Jovic.

Powell would be a 6th man making almost 17 million a year next season. Unless we wanted to do the stupid start him at the 3. 17 a year for a 6th man on a team that isn't a contender is a bad use of $$, IMO.

 

[blazerkor]

I don't necessarily think there was a mandate in reality, but I'd encourage you to go back and read the board from Dame's injury on. There was an overwhelming desire from almost every sector to move on from CJ ASAP, and I guarantee that people would be equally flustered with Cronin if he hadn't traded CJ.

I also don't think CJ's value was ever going to be higher in the future than it was in February. Heck, if you talk diehard fans of other teams, most saw CJ on his contract as negative value. Hart, financial flexibility, and draft assets (even if they turn out minor) are at least positive value.

I've wanted CJ gone for a long long time but never wanted us to take back so little for him. To be honest the idea of CJ staying and increasing his trade value by playing the way he had in the past when not playing with Dame wouldn't have been that big of a deal for me... as long as the idea was to move him in the off season with his trade value increased. I'd put up with it for like five seasons, I wouldn't even have had to put up with the redundancies of Dame/CJ for the rest of this one. That might have meant our pick went to Chicago instead of being in the lotto like it is but it would have freed up a lot of future picks at the same time. If the pick conveys then it was just a little in favor of the Pelicans but if it doesn't we got fleeced and there is no arguing that we got fleeced in the first one. Someone just said that they liked Justise better than RoCo which is fine but if that was one trade the other was Norm for Keon and a second rounder that is pure robbery.

 

[Graduate32]

I don't trust the reporting that only three teams had interest in CJ. I do trust the reporting that the offers were pretty far below his actual value because of his contract but more so because Joe had just shown that he was willing to give away quality pieces. To think that a rookie GM's first move being pure shit didn't affect the offers he received for his second move wouldn't be very logical.

I'll say what I've said before. If the pick conveys and I still think there's a decent chance that it does, then the trade wasn't fucking awful but the Norm/RoCo trade was and that affected this trade. This trade not being awful in no way redeems Cronin from the first trade he made being awful. This is an interim GM and he's shown that he will let other GMs take advantage of him and possibly that he has no clue how to manage his ownership group for the betterment of the team.

I just don't know why we would keep him when we know this is 1 of 30 of these jobs in the world and not the least attractive one. The pool that we have to hire from is vast and we can do better than what Joe has shown he is.

Who else would have had interested in CJ? I've heard nary a whisper of other teams in the mix when it came down to it. Knicks may have been interested, but only in exchange for the bloated Fournier contracts of their roster. Have we even heard of a single other team that was even gauging the market on CJ over the last year and a half? I can't think of any.

Do you mind citing a report that CJ offers were lowered due to RoCo-Norm deal? I don't remember that and perhaps need a refresher. The only information I remember on the matter is that Cronin argued that opposite in fact. He was getting trash deals for CJ because of the fact that every other team knew they had to get under the tax. Cronin would argue that RoCo-Norm deal (good, bad, or otherwise) increased the return for CJ. But if you can point otherwise, I am happy to be corrected.

To be clear, I am not necessarily advocating that Cronin should be hired longterm, but rather that this retroactive bashing of this deal because this gamble lost is inanity.

 

[wizenheimer]

Really, if the pick doesn't convey and Cronin isn't fired fairly immediately we know that the Vulcans don't give a shit about this team

pretty sure that's a given by now. They don't care about the team, just the profits

 

[RR7]

Fine, but i mean this is pedantic at this point if we're gonna say that we HAD to trade him to the Pels. If CJ had improved his value as he has now, perhaps other deals would have presented themselves.

If he improved his value, that also likely means we go in to the play in, and maybe dame comes back. And then we send our Pick to Chicago, and wr go into the offseason another 1st round exit, needing to trade CJ, with no other assets really to work with. Ouch.

 

[Haakzilla]

In Lue We Trust.

 

[illmatic99]

Do you mind citing a report that CJ offers were lowered due to RoCo-Norm deal? I don't remember that and perhaps need a refresher. The only information I remember on the matter is that Cronin argued that opposite in fact. He was getting trash deals for CJ because of the fact that every other team knew they had to get under the tax. Cronin would argue that RoCo-Norm deal (good, bad, or otherwise) increased the return for CJ. But if you can point otherwise, I am happy to be corrected.

Cronin said so in his Trade Deadline recap interview. He said they were leveraged in subsequent deals because teams held it against us that we were above the tax and making bad offers.

 

[illmatic99]

If he improved his value, that also likely means we go in to the play in, and maybe dame comes back. And then we send our Pick to Chicago, and wr go into the offseason another 1st round exit, needing to trade CJ, with no other assets really to work with. Ouch.

is that really a worse place than we are in now? We will have maybe ONE moveable asset and fake capspace.

 

[RR7]

Powell for a recent 1st rounder that was only 19, younger than half the guys in the lottery this year and a 2nd rounder is fine value. It's not a HR, we ripped them off obviously, but that's a fair deal.

 

[blazerkor]

I have no clue why so many of you are sticking up for Cronin. The dude has done a bad job. I don't want someone who can't chew gum and walk (cut future salary and get back decent value) at the same time to be our GM. For me he's only proven that he sucks and for those of you arguing to keep him your argument seems to be that he doesn't suck that bad. Again this is one of thirty of these positions in the world, we don't have to settle for doesn't suck that bad, we need someone who is good to spectacular. There is only one reason why Vulcan would not think Joe has failed his job interview and that's if they don't give a shit about how competitive our team is and just care that he saved them some money... that's pretty scary for us as fans going forward. FIRE CRONIN!!!

 

[HailBlazers]

Trading CJ was key to our tank as well remember.

 

[RR7]

is that really a worse place than we are in now? We will have maybe ONE moveable asset and fake capspace.

CJ, and our future picks, with a bloated salary, versus a top 6 pick most likely, a 20 million dollar TPE, a 2025 pick, or 11, 2 2nd rounders and Hart? Yeah, I like the latter MUCH more.

 

[blazerkor]

Powell for a recent 1st rounder that was only 19, younger than half the guys in the lottery this year and a 2nd rounder is fine value. It's not a HR, we ripped them off obviously, but that's a fair deal.

If we were tearing the team down for a rebuild the deal would still be pretty bad but when you have the GM saying that he's doing it to build a contender starting next season... it's fucking awful.

 

[RR7]

If we were tearing the team down for a rebuild the deal would still be pretty bad but when you have the GM saying that he's doing it to build a contender starting next season... it's fucking awful.

We were tearing it down this season. Ro tank and get a top pick. And look at that, we're primed for a top 6 pick. He wants to build around lillard, he said it could take more than 1 year

 

[Graduate32]

This is what I had said prior to the moves:

http://www.sportstwo.com/threads/rebuild-around-dame.372282/#post-5289372

That's fair, "but he eventually has to go" is how you ended your point. I guess you believe that CJ is worth more now than he was when he was traded? I'd much rather have the 6th pick in this draft and the New Orleans return no matter what happens with this NOP pick than the 13th pick and a NOP-level CJ for whom we still have no trade leverage for this summer. If you believe that Portland would have gotten more in return for CJ this summer when gets a year older, I guess I'm just going to have to disagree.

We may not like it, but this was and is CJ's market.

 

[illmatic99]

CJ, and our future picks, with a bloated salary, versus a top 6 pick most likely, a 20 million dollar TPE, a 2025 pick, or 11, 2 2nd rounders and Hart? Yeah, I like the latter MUCH more.

agree to disagree. let's see what happens this summer.

maybe it's the doomsday culture i've been harboring, but i can see our entire summer plans toppling over (as well as Dame's disinterest in rebuilding) just because of this one game tonight.

 

[illmatic99]

I guess you believe that CJ is worth more now than he was when he was traded?

I don't think there's any ambiguity in that point.

 

[RR7]

agree to disagree. let's see what happens this summer.

maybe it's the doomsday culture i've been harboring, but i can see our entire summer plans toppling over (as well as Dame's disinterest in rebuilding) just because of this one game tonight.

I can as well. But we still have our pick. A high pick. That's way better to me than a 1st round exit and desperate to move CJ.

 

[Graduate32]

Cronin said so in his Trade Deadline recap interview. He said they were leveraged in subsequent deals because teams held it against us that we were above the tax and making bad offers.

Right. He made the RoCo deal in order to have more leverage in CJ negotiations. That's exactly what I said in the previous posts. We can argue that the Clippers deal was bad, but it didn't lower CJ offers, and according to Cronin, it gave them more leverage.

 

[Graduate32]

I don't think there's any ambiguity in that point.

We probably will never know as he won't leave New Orleans, but I'll admit to not understanding that line of thought.

 

[Graduate32]

I have no clue why so many of you are sticking up for Cronin. The dude has done a bad job. I don't want someone who can chew gum and walk (cut future salary and get back decent value) at the same time to be our GM. For me he's only proven that he sucks and for those of you arguing to keep him your argument seems to be that he doesn't suck that bad. Again this is one of thirty of these positions in the world, we don't have to settle for doesn't suck that bad, we need someone who is good to spectacular. There is only one reason why Vulcan would not think Joe has failed his job interview and that's if they don't give a shit about how competitive our team is and just care that he saved them some money... that's pretty scary for us as fans going forward. FIRE CRONIN!!!

And we have no clue why you are retroactively bashing him for a trade that seemed by most objective observers at least market value, and that many of us would argue even with the Milwaukee pick instead, is still market value. No one is saying he should definitely be hired longterm, but to bash him for the CJ trade now is silly.

 

[blazerkor]

CJ, and our future picks, with a bloated salary, versus a top 6 pick most likely, a 20 million dollar TPE, a 2025 pick, or 11, 2 2nd rounders and Hart? Yeah, I like the latter MUCH more.

Don't let anyone sell you on what we already had being something we gained in a trade. That's how a loser thinks. We have to be competitive with the other teams in this league so we can't give them a ton more so that we can access shit that we already have. A 2025 first and a couple of second rounders are not going to get us good value on the TPE. Hart is a good piece but this shit doesn't come close to adding up to the value of CJ and Larry. If the pick conveys sure it's just a small loss and it can be sold as a small step back to take a bigger step forward. You can't work the same magic with that first trade though.

I just don't know why you'd want to keep Joe. There are literally hundreds of candidates out there that we could have and I'm quite sure most of them are going to be better than Cronin and less sentimental about the way they go about building an instant contender or rebuilding this roster.

 

[illmatic99]

And we have no clue why you are retroactively bashing him for a trade that seemed by most objective observers at least market value, and that many of us would argue even with the Milwaukee pick instead, is still market value. No one is saying he should definitely be hired longterm, but to bash him for the CJ trade now is silly.

There is no retroactive bashing. A lot of us were trashing these deals from the beginning.