OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national anthem

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Is there another way to get a hold on him? I don't know what the hell is wrong with my twitter

I'm sure you could email the cavs somehow, and CC someone important like Stephen A Smith, Adam Silver, Bill O'Reilly, Bill Simmons, Shaquille O'neal, etc

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Are the people who are in the concourse are showing disrespect to the country? Or the people filming the singer, and moving around? Or do we just holding the athletes to a higher standard because they make much more money?

Ask yourself what the Globetrotters would do under the circumstances..ambassadors of goodwill. It's not the money they make, it's the stage they are representing and the youth that look up to these guys. At least it used to be. There's also the fact that I pretty much dislike Waiters as well, so there's that

 

[OneLifeToLive]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I'm just glad this is the Cavs prob and not the Blazers. Blazers were rumored to be interested in him during that draft.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I'm sure you could email the cavs somehow, and CC someone important like Stephen A Smith, Adam Silver, Bill O'Reilly, Bill Simmons, Shaquille O'neal, etc

Lmao, like that will get to him. Does he have facebook? I can message him without being his friend.

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

It's absolutely disrespecting the country. It's funny cause I'm sure you think you're coming across as highly intelligent right now. Have fun.

How is it disrespecting the country?


You are within your rights not to be present. It's not like he's interrupting, making a protest, throwing a flag on the ground or waiving a flag of another country during it.

He's opting to (at least, he's claiming he wants to) be absent during it. It is in no way disrespectful.

People mill about in the concourse, ordering food, talking, going outside and smoke, drink beer, eat, piss, have their tickets scanned, buy shit at the Blazers fan store, all during the National Anthem. Are they then being disrespectful to the country?

 

[jlprk]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I got a second response. I'll give the same answer as to Hail.

You imply that conforming to a nation's customs is higher priority, as you put it "a larger issue," than obeying one's religion. So if you go to a Muslim country, you plan to bow to Allah.

If you go to a Muslim country and disrespect their cultural mores, you can be imprisoned and killed. And yes, when I was in Afghanistan I observed Ramadan fasting out of respect for the people I was working with. I wouldn't have been imprisoned for not doing so, but I would not have had the impact I did on the work I was doing.

(Full disclosure: I semi-cheated b/c the end of Ramadan was by 2-week leave. Once I left country I went back to normal. So I didn't go a whole month.)

Your analogy holds only if your religion disallows that, as Waiters' religion does. Does yours?

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Lmao, like that will get to him. Does he have facebook? I can message him without being his friend.

it would go to his "other" inbox and doubtful he'd see it. You sure are coming up with a lot of excuses...

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I'm sure you could email the cavs somehow, and CC someone important like Stephen A Smith, Adam Silver, Bill O'Reilly, Bill Simmons, Shaquille O'neal, etc

Oh I got it! How about you Twitter him and say "hey brother, I've been defending you freedom of speech and this asshole wants you to get hard fouls. Come over and ask him his address because he wants to tell you to your face!"

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Ask yourself what the Globetrotters would do under the circumstances..ambassadors of goodwill. It's not the money they make, it's the stage they are representing and the youth that look up to these guys. At least it used to be. There's also the fact that I pretty much dislike Waiters as well, so there's that

If they were in a country where their freedoms are restricted, they'd probably do what it is they're required to do.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

This is true. however, we're not a Muslim country (and we're not supposed to be a "Christian" country, in that religious isn't supposed to play a role in the laws of the land), so I'm not sure it plays a role here.

I was responding to jlprk's post, not yours. In the case of your argument, I get where you are coming from, but Waiters' employer gets to make that call per the CBA (at least, I think so...I don't know if it changed in 2011). Just as my employer can tell me that I can't smoke pot in Seattle, even though it's legal.

Now, going out of one's way to hurt someone b/c they have this belief? I agree that it's not cool.

A trickier thought (that may get Denny some more clicks) is this: if we're going to allow him to act outside of the CBA in accordance with his religion, how does his adherence to his religion allow him to play in front of "scantily-clad" cheerleading women? Or with gay males? Or with teammates living out of wedlock? It seems as if he's taking the part of his belief that is the most political and emphasizing it by drawing attention to himself through it. His employers get a say in that.

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Oh I got it! How about you Twitter him and say "hey brother, I've been defending you freedom of speech and this asshole wants you to get hard fouls. Come over and ask him his address because he wants to tell you to your face!"

Because i'm not the one who claims he'd say it to his face. The burden is on you, not me. I don't give a shit if he does it or doesn't do it, because in my eyes participating in something (that isn't required or mandatory) doesn't make or break someones respect for the country.

 

[Blazinaway]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I was responding to jlprk's post, not yours. In the case of your argument, I get where you are coming from, but Waiters' employer gets to make that call per the CBA (at least, I think so...I don't know if it changed in 2011). Just as my employer can tell me that I can't smoke pot in Seattle, even though it's legal.

Now, going out of one's way to hurt someone b/c they have this belief? I agree that it's not cool.

A trickier thought (that may get Denny some more clicks) is this: if we're going to allow him to act outside of the CBA in accordance with his religion, how does his adherence to his religion allow him to play in front of "scantily-clad" cheerleading women? Or with gay males? Or with teammates living out of wedlock? It seems as if he's taking the part of his belief that is the most political and emphasizing it by drawing attention to himself through it. His employers get a say in that.

nice valid points

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Done. I found his facebook page.

 

[noknobs]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

How is it disrespecting the country?


You are within your rights not to be present. It's not like he's interrupting, making a protest, throwing a flag on the ground or waiving a flag of another country during it.

He's opting to (at least, he's claiming he wants to) be absent during it. It is in no way disrespectful.

People mill about in the concourse, ordering food, talking, going outside and smoke, drink beer, eat, piss, have their tickets scanned, buy shit at the Blazers fan store, all during the National Anthem. Are they then being disrespectful to the country?

You're actually comparing someone arriving late, or standing in a long line for a hotdog, or doing a job, to what Waiters is doing?
Jesus, Julius.

He's about to play basketball yet going out of his way to not stand with his teammates and listen to the countries anthem. It's disrespectful.

You keep bringing up his right not to be present - NO SHIT SHERLOCK. Everyone knows that he has the right to be a dick and to be disrespectful. Why do you have a problem with everyone calling a spade a spade- He's a dick. Get off your self-righteous high-horse.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Speech is not limited to talk or print. It's also actions.

First of all, it's more than a little condescending to assume that the relatively well-educated people in this forum, myself included, do not understand this concept.

Second, the reason I said you were conflating the two was because you wrote this:

That's not the only thing that FoS means. You are allowed to have different thoughts, and religious practices. You are not required to practice certain activities that are religious in nature if you so chose not to, or certain practices that go against beliefs you have (both religiously or just that you have).

You say FoS means multiple things, and then you immediately go into freedom of religion. Read the first amendment again--perhaps you'll notice that religion is mentioned prior to speech. That should indicate that freedom of religion is not a subsect of freedom of speech, but a separate issue. By combining them, you're conflating them.

Now, back to what I originally said, which seemed to escape you. While everyone else was lambasting Waiters, I specifically said that I wanted to hear from him an elaboration of his reasoning, that I may then come to a conclusion on how I feel about his stance. The link Denny provided is irrelevant to what I posted, because it is not what I said I would need in order to form an informed opinion. Neither are your statements relevant to my opinion about Dion Waiters' stance here. The only person's thoughts that I personally am interested in on this matter are Waiters' and his alone, because he is the one making the choice. And no, I have never said there's anything wrong with him not standing for the anthem, or that he should be forced to do so, and I have never said he should go to another country, or that by accepting a paycheck in the US he is somehow obligated to observe the national anthem, or say the pledge of allegiance, or salute the flag, or thank members of the military, or anything else.

The ONLY statement I made was that I'd like to hear more from Dion Waiters about this. Why is that worth arguing with?

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Do you want me to send him my address as well?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Do you want me to send him my address as well?

Just send him directions to Mt Tabor.

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I was responding to jlprk's post, not yours. In the case of your argument, I get where you are coming from, but Waiters' employer gets to make that call per the CBA (at least, I think so...I don't know if it changed in 2011). Just as my employer can tell me that I can't smoke pot in Seattle, even though it's legal.

Now, going out of one's way to hurt someone b/c they have this belief? I agree that it's not cool.

A trickier thought (that may get Denny some more clicks) is this: if we're going to allow him to act outside of the CBA in accordance with his religion, how does his adherence to his religion allow him to play in front of "scantily-clad" cheerleading women? Or with gay males? Or with teammates living out of wedlock? It seems as if he's taking the part of his belief that is the most political and emphasizing it by drawing attention to himself through it. His employers get a say in that.

"To be a true social anthropologist it is sometimes necessary to put on the grass skirt and eat the bowl of worms" (from Frank Zappa's autobiography

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Just send him directions to Mt Tabor.

He's a pussy. He would probably show some squirrel picture and say he was there waiting for me

 

[jlprk]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

"Your analogy holds only if your religion disallows that, as Waiters' religion does. Does yours?"

Let's pick a better analogy. Let's say that you visit a country in which some custom conflicts with Judaeo-Christian rules. Say you're expected to murder. Which is higher priority, obeying your religion, or avoiding disrespect of your host country?

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I was responding to jlprk's post, not yours. In the case of your argument, I get where you are coming from, but Waiters' employer gets to make that call per the CBA (at least, I think so...I don't know if it changed in 2011). Just as my employer can tell me that I can't smoke pot in Seattle, even though it's legal.

I know you were responding to him. I just had a long week or little or not time for this forum and I'm on a roll!

the US constitution has more weight than the NBA's CBA.

Now, going out of one's way to hurt someone b/c they have this belief? I agree that it's not cool.

A trickier thought (that may get Denny some more clicks) is this: if we're going to allow him to act outside of the CBA in accordance with his religion, how does his adherence to his religion allow him to play in front of "scantily-clad" cheerleading women? Or with gay males? Or with teammates living out of wedlock? It seems as if he's taking the part of his belief that is the most political and emphasizing it by drawing attention to himself through it. His employers get a say in that.

I do agree that he could be being hypocritical here, and imho it wouldn't surprise me if this was a call for attention (sorta thing). I just don't think it matters if he is out there or not. Forcing someone to do something is pointless. Ignoring him or letting him stay in the tunnel doesn't impact my life at all. In fact, if none of us knew about it, would it even matter?

It's not like he's doing something illegal and the NBA/Cavs knew about it and let him get away with it.

On the scale of things I'd rather a player not do, knocking his fiance out or taking a switch to his 4 year old or fighting dogs is far worse than wishin to be excused from the NA due to religious or personal beliefs.

For me, I like standing still, and close my eyes during the anthems. I don't look at the flag, and actually if I could, I'd rather be in an area where I'm not around other fans for that moment. I can't explain why, it's just something I've liked since i was a kid.

Must mean I dislike the country and am disrespectful, even though the country is where I'm allowed to make a living AND live freely.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I was responding to jlprk's post, not yours. In the case of your argument, I get where you are coming from, but Waiters' employer gets to make that call per the CBA (at least, I think so...I don't know if it changed in 2011). Just as my employer can tell me that I can't smoke pot in Seattle, even though it's legal.

Now, going out of one's way to hurt someone b/c they have this belief? I agree that it's not cool.

A trickier thought (that may get Denny some more clicks) is this: if we're going to allow him to act outside of the CBA in accordance with his religion, how does his adherence to his religion allow him to play in front of "scantily-clad" cheerleading women? Or with gay males? Or with teammates living out of wedlock? It seems as if he's taking the part of his belief that is the most political and emphasizing it by drawing attention to himself through it. His employers get a say in that.

Exactly!

Like Julius, he picks and chooses his belief as some sort of cheesy stand.

Half naked ladies are dancing in front of him. He's being paid by Jews and gay people among other people. The money he's earned are from the "so called" sins of the world.

Take a true stand and say "I quit basketball because of what it stands for"

But we all know what his true intentions are. He wants the limelight. He wants fans to idolize him. The action is to bring attention to himself.

He's a chump and loser

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

"Your analogy holds only if your religion disallows that, as Waiters' religion does. Does yours?"

Let's pick a better analogy. Let's say that you visit a country in which some custom conflicts with Judaeo-Christian rules. Say you're expected to murder. Which is higher priority, obeying your religion, or avoiding disrespect of your host country?

If that murder involves an albino hissing cockroach, the sucker is dead

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

To your hypothetical, I'd say that it would be to obey my religion. And I would have to leave.

Let me give YOU a case. The US government (in the form of Commander of ISAF in Kabul) tells me that I cannot share my faith with any local national in Iraq or Afghanistan. A core tenet of my faith is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. Do you think it's appropriate, respectful, protected under the Bill of Rights or just plain right for me to ignore that order because I have to live with myself? Or should I (as Abdul-Rauf did) obey the rules, and pray for forgiveness?

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Exactly!

Like Julius, he picks and chooses his belief as some sort of cheesy stand.

Half naked ladies are dancing in front of him. He's being paid by Jews and gay people among other people. The money he's earned are from the "so called" sins of the world.

Take a true stand and say "I quit basketball because of what it stands for"

But we all know what his true intentions are. He wants the limelight. He wants fans to idolize him. The action is to bring attention to himself.

He's a chump and loser

Yeah, do what Cat Stevens did..

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

"Your analogy holds only if your religion disallows that, as Waiters' religion does. Does yours?"

Let's pick a better analogy. Let's say that you visit a country in which some custom conflicts with Judaeo-Christian rules. Say you're expected to murder. Which is higher priority, obeying your religion, or avoiding disrespect of your host country?

Wouldn't moving out of the country solve this? Many of us are just asking him to leave. Fuck it "telling him to leave".

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

You're actually comparing someone arriving late, or standing in a long line for a hotdog, or doing a job, to what Waiters is doing?
Jesus, Julius.

and you just took the lords name in Vain, so...

He's about to play basketball yet going out of his way to not stand with his teammates and listen to the countries anthem. It's disrespectful.

So what if he's about to play basketball? Standing at attention for the NA is not a law.

You keep bringing up his right not to be present - NO SHIT SHERLOCK. Everyone knows that he has the right to be a dick and to be disrespectful. Why do you have a problem with everyone calling a spade a spade- He's a dick. Get off your self-righteous high-horse.

Saying he should be forced to leave the country, fouled hard and disrespectful to the country is not the same as calling someone a dick.

 

[OneLifeToLive]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I think this is lil less about 'islam' and more about the person himself. His religion gives him an excuse to act out his feelings about the country he lives and works in. How many players who subscribe to the same faith act out in this way?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

the US constitution has more weight than the NBA's CBA.

Actually, when it comes to governing private enterprise, it really doesn't.

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

To your hypothetical, I'd say that it would be to obey my religion. And I would have to leave.

Let me give YOU a case. The US government (in the form of Commander of ISAF in Kabul) tells me that I cannot share my faith with any local national in Iraq or Afghanistan. A core tenet of my faith is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. Do you think it's appropriate, respectful, protected under the Bill of Rights or just plain right for me to ignore that order because I have to live with myself? Or should I (as Abdul-Rauf did) obey the rules, and pray for forgiveness?

I was confined to a Naval Ship in the Tonkin Gulf for refusing to throw plastic furniture in the ocean on a garbage detail. They confined me to the engine room for 2 weeks when we wouldn't see port for 30 days...sometimes it just makes no sense.