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The amount of hypotheticals you have to swallow to end up with a better outcome than Ayton and OG is overwhelming. You can always make tweaks as you go along. You're not expected to keep all these players forever. Get good and then make tweaks along the way.

You have a better shot with that than expecting to turn late 1st round picks into gold. And you get Grady? I'm for it. You're giving Scoot a team to play with from the get go.
 
And if they're not, and we embrace the rebuild and struggle, we'll have a higher likelihood of getting a HOF talent because we'll be drafting at the top.

LMAO. Let's trade everyone and create capspace! What a refreshing idea!

Rewatch your FA streams where you two looked like you wanted to slit each others' wrists after hearing we overpaid for yet another 6'3 guard 7 hrs after FA opens as our only move.

Surely you guys don't want to re-live that fiasco.
 
LMAO. Let's trade everyone and create capspace! What a refreshing idea!

Rewatch your FA streams where you two looked like you wanted to slit each others' wrists after hearing we overpaid for yet another 6'3 guard 7 hrs after FA opens as our only move.

Surely you guys don't want to re-live that fiasco.
I understand people who want to embrace the rebuild, but we have our two young studs. We should be trying to put pieces around them. Is there anyone in this draft who is as good as OG or Ayton?
 
The amount of hypotheticals you have to swallow to end up with a better outcome than Ayton and OG is overwhelming. You can always make tweaks as you go along. You're not expected to keep all these players forever. Get good and then make tweaks along the way.

You have a better shot with that than expecting to turn late 1st round picks into gold. And you get Grady? I'm for it. You're giving Scoot a team to play with from the get go.
That's what I would like to see. A team with as much talent as possible for Scoot from the get-go.
If Scoot is playing at a very high level from the beginning, I don't understand the need to "develop" as in wait for other players to catch up to Scoot.
It could soon be time to work on chemistry and fine tuning the lineup.
 
That's what I would like to see. A team with as much talent as possible for Scoot from the get-go.
If Scoot is playing at a very high level from the beginning, I don't understand the need to "develop" as in wait for other players to catch up to Scoot.
It could soon be time to work on chemistry and fine tuning the lineup.

And their insistence that being bad and collecting lottery picks is some how a full-proof plan when year after year their are teams who can't climb out of the lottery despite drafting lottery picks each year. Ayton at 24 is already 18 and 10 with his best basketball in front of him. Same with OG who could be even better in a new system but regardless, he's still a top wing defender in the league.

These folks will complain that we wasted Dame's best years and then say we shouldn't try to be good for several years under Scoot and Shae.
 
LMAO. Let's trade everyone and create capspace! What a refreshing idea!

Rewatch your FA streams where you two looked like you wanted to slit each others' wrists after hearing we overpaid for yet another 6'3 guard 7 hrs after FA opens as our only move.

Surely you guys don't want to re-live that fiasco.
Can I interact with anyone here without people randomly bringing up my channel? Fucking hell. What does signing another guard when we needed forwards have to do with going a rebuild route after Dame's gone?
 
And their insistence that being bad and collecting lottery picks is some how a full-proof plan when year after year their are teams who can't climb out of the lottery despite drafting lottery picks each year. Ayton at 24 is already 18 and 10 with his best basketball in front of him. Same with OG who could be even better in a new system but regardless, he's still a top wing defender in the league.

These folks will complain that we wasted Dame's best years and then say we shouldn't try to be good for several years under Scoot and Shae.
It's not a fool-proof plan. Ayton hasn't improved much in the last 3 years. OG can walk for nothing. Is that a fool-proof plan?

For years, the problem was that we we didn't have enough assets to put a contending team around Dame. We didn't have enough to go trade for the stars we needed. I don't want to go the same route with Scoot and Sharpe. They're 19 & 20. We have more time with them than we ever did with Dame. Focus on their development and accumulate assets.
 
The problem is, our window in the lottery is hopefully only a couple years. If Scoot and Shae don’t pop, we are going to be for a rough period of time. But assuming they do play as we hope and expect, this team should hopefully be crawling up and out of the bottom of the league.

This upcoming draft isn’t considered very good. The next one is better, but we can’t turn down valuable assets like OG just because we want to suck.
If Scoot and Shae don't pop, the only way we're not screwed is if we have guys who do. Only way to realistically do that (outside of a miracle Giannis/Jokic type of pick) is to have high draft picks or a ton of assets to star chase.

Who says turn down OG? We could probably flip him for first round picks. If that's better than Miami's package, fine. You can always trade first round picks for high-caliber role players when Scoot & Sharpe are ready. I just don't understand why we need to have those types of guys now instead of focusing on developing the young core over winning and then adding those pieces when they're ready.
 
And their insistence that being bad and collecting lottery picks is some how a full-proof plan when year after year their are teams who can't climb out of the lottery despite drafting lottery picks each year. Ayton at 24 is already 18 and 10 with his best basketball in front of him. Same with OG who could be even better in a new system but regardless, he's still a top wing defender in the league.

These folks will complain that we wasted Dame's best years and then say we shouldn't try to be good for several years under Scoot and Shae.
Dame started right off the bat with Lamarcus, Matthews and Batum.
Dame hit that terrific game and series winner against Houston in his SECOND SEASON.
Does anyone want to go back in time and take that away, trade away Aldridge, Matthews and Batum and commence with tanking?
They only reason anyone would say "Yes" would be in hindsight, knowing Matthews would suffer a severe injury and Aldridge would leave.
But not knowing that, that team had potential.
 
Dame started right off the bat with Lamarcus, Matthews and Batum.
Dame hit that terrific game and series winner against Houston in his SECOND SEASON.
Does anyone want to go back in time and take that away, trade away Aldridge, Matthews and Batum and commence with tanking?
They only reason anyone would say "Yes" would be in hindsight, knowing Matthews would suffer a severe injury and Aldridge would leave.
But not knowing that, that team had potential.
Of course not, but you could make the argument that they may have been able to build the contender that they never could if they went that route. Also, Aldridge, Matthews and Batum were all here already and an established part of a core. We were adding a 22-year old Damian Lillard to that. Scoot is 19. We have more time with Scoot.

Where did that get Dame? He spent 11 years in Portland and never contended, mostly due to Neil Olshey's incompetence but also a lack of assets to be able to surround Dame with meaningful pieces. If you think a core of Scoot, Sharpe, OG, Grant and Ayton contends in a couple years, I get it. But to me, that feels more likely to be a team that's good enough to win a playoff series but not good enough to win it all. I'd rather take more time to make sure we build a team or have the assets that result in a contender.
 
Of course not, but you could make the argument that they may have been able to build the contender that they never could if they went that route. Also, Aldridge, Matthews and Batum were all here already and an established part of a core. We were adding a 22-year old Damian Lillard to that. Scoot is 19. We have more time with Scoot.

Where did that get Dame? He spent 11 years in Portland and never contended, mostly due to Neil Olshey's incompetence but also a lack of assets to be able to surround Dame with meaningful pieces. If you think a core of Scoot, Sharpe, OG, Grant and Ayton contends in a couple years, I get it. But to me, that feels more likely to be a team that's good enough to win a playoff series but not good enough to win it all. I'd rather take more time to make sure we build a team or have the assets that result in a contender.

But if you spent 2 years tanking and got the #1 pick and drafted a center like Ayton, then got the #4 pick and got a player like OG you'd think that tank plan is worked. Then in year 3 you'd probably already be at a point where you're too good to get high lotto picks.

There's also the chance that you draft busts. You could just start by having that team now.
 
How do we get over the hurdle of trying to convince OG that we won’t ever do to him what we are doing to Dame right now?

Doesn’t matter what you say, it’s hard to erase the fact that we traded role players to their preferred destinations but traded Dame for the most assets.
You mean pay him obscene amounts of money and tell him that if he tries to artificially deprese his market value the team will have to trade him to the place that offered the most?

I think he will understand.
 
Of course not, but you could make the argument that they may have been able to build the contender that they never could if they went that route. Also, Aldridge, Matthews and Batum were all here already and an established part of a core. We were adding a 22-year old Damian Lillard to that. Scoot is 19. We have more time with Scoot.

Where did that get Dame? He spent 11 years in Portland and never contended, mostly due to Neil Olshey's incompetence but also a lack of assets to be able to surround Dame with meaningful pieces. If you think a core of Scoot, Sharpe, OG, Grant and Ayton contends in a couple years, I get it. But to me, that feels more likely to be a team that's good enough to win a playoff series but not good enough to win it all. I'd rather take more time to make sure we build a team or have the assets that result in a contender.
We had many opportunities to contend with Dame. Olshey just screwed it up repeatedly.

Refusing to trade CJ for PG. Refusing to get value out of Aldridge. Missing in critical drafts. Overpaying average players who over achieved rather than trading them for max value.

If we suck the next few years and OG and Ayton leave because of it, how have we helped ourselves?

That seems just as likely as drafting players as good as they are.
 
Of course not, but you could make the argument that they may have been able to build the contender that they never could if they went that route. Also, Aldridge, Matthews and Batum were all here already and an established part of a core. We were adding a 22-year old Damian Lillard to that. Scoot is 19. We have more time with Scoot.

Where did that get Dame? He spent 11 years in Portland and never contended, mostly due to Neil Olshey's incompetence but also a lack of assets to be able to surround Dame with meaningful pieces. If you think a core of Scoot, Sharpe, OG, Grant and Ayton contends in a couple years, I get it. But to me, that feels more likely to be a team that's good enough to win a playoff series but not good enough to win it all. I'd rather take more time to make sure we build a team or have the assets that result in a contender.

Dame's teams made the playoffs in eight of his first nine years. That established core you point to when Dame got here won 28 games the season before he arrived and was in the lottery, won 33 games in Dame's first year and then was in the conference semifinals.

Of course, Dame also had a team in the conference finals that squandered leads in what, three of the four games against a dynastic team? I get the need to revise history to suit your narrative, but your post comes off like Dame was on a perpetual loser. He was not. He was on a good team that never was able to catch up to better teams, and one could argue the Blazers squandered good resources on meh returns in a panic to fit Dame's window, which, BTW, doesn't seem to be closing as fast as people that applauded the moves to get RoCo and Nance.

One other thing about contenders. Exactly how many teams are really contenders out there every year?

In Dame's career, eight different teams have won NBA titles. Twelve different teams have played in the finals. Three of those eight winners have been LeBron teams. One of the others -- which won four times -- was Steph/Klay/Draymond/Kerr with Durant a couple of years.

One team built around one of the five best players in the history of the game. The other a dynasty built around guys that were picked seventh, 11th and 35th.

Two of those other champion teams were built around homegrown talent that was drafted 15th and 41st who are two of the five best players in the NBA.

If your standard for contention is being able to get to the finals, the Blazers are far from alone in not contending -- the number of teams that are truly contenders are minuscule. If your standard for contention is being able to win playoff series, the Blazers in Dame's career are -- they made the playoffs eight straight years before he basically missed a season with core injury surgery.

I get so tired of these double standards and disingenuous arguments to act like Dame was in such a bad situation in Portland that he might as well have been the little kid begging for the dish of gruel.
 
Dame's teams made the playoffs in eight of his first nine years. That established core you point to when Dame got here won 28 games the season before he arrived and was in the lottery, won 33 games in Dame's first year and then was in the conference semifinals.

Of course, Dame also had a team in the conference finals that squandered leads in what, three of the four games against a dynastic team? I get the need to revise history to suit your narrative, but your post comes off like Dame was on a perpetual loser. He was not. He was on a good team that never was able to catch up to better teams, and one could argue the Blazers squandered good resources on meh returns in a panic to fit Dame's window, which, BTW, doesn't seem to be closing as fast as people that applauded the moves to get RoCo and Nance.

One other thing about contenders. Exactly how many teams are really contenders out there every year?

In Dame's career, eight different teams have won NBA titles. Twelve different teams have played in the finals. Three of those eight winners have been LeBron teams. One of the others -- which won four times -- was Steph/Klay/Draymond/Kerr with Durant a couple of years.

One team built around one of the five best players in the history of the game. The other a dynasty built around guys that were picked seventh, 11th and 35th.

Two of those other champion teams were built around homegrown talent that was drafted 15th and 41st who are two of the five best players in the NBA.

If your standard for contention is being able to get to the finals, the Blazers are far from alone in not contending -- the number of teams that are truly contenders are minuscule. If your standard for contention is being able to win playoff series, the Blazers in Dame's career are -- they made the playoffs eight straight years before he basically missed a season with core injury surgery.

I get so tired of these double standards and disingenuous arguments to act like Dame was in such a bad situation in Portland that he might as well have been the little kid begging for the dish of gruel.
Dame needed Paul Allen to be healthy and engaged and bring in our version of Pete Carroll and John Schneider.

Olshey wasn't it.
 
It's not a fool-proof plan. Ayton hasn't improved much in the last 3 years. OG can walk for nothing. Is that a fool-proof plan?

For years, the problem was that we we didn't have enough assets to put a contending team around Dame. We didn't have enough to go trade for the stars we needed. I don't want to go the same route with Scoot and Sharpe. They're 19 & 20. We have more time with them than we ever did with Dame. Focus on their development and accumulate assets.

I would look to compare Ayton's situation in Phoenix to Jermaine O'neal (JO) in Portland. JO played on a loaded vet team and couldn't get any time at all. Then Portland traded him for another win now vet and JO blew up in Indy. While Ayton plays a different position, he has been playing on a loaded Suns team putting up 18/10 as a fifth option. The kid wants a role on the team. Wants to go JO on the league. You have to admire that. Portland fans certainly admired that of JO and loved him with Indy. I have no problem with Ayton coming to Portland and wanting to be a first, second or third option. Teams should be looking to establish a low post game early so he can make a couple quick buckets, get defenders to sag onto him and open up the three point shot for others. This is really a complete no brainer for me if the team is committed to using him properly. If Portland decides to run it back as a ball dominate, walk it up, point guard dominated team, it will just be a waste.
 
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I would look to compare Ayton's situation in Phoenix to Jermaine O'neal (JO) in Portland. JO played on a loaded vet team and couldn't get any time at all. Then Portland traded him for another win now vet and JO blew up in Indy. While Ayton plays a different position, he has been playing on a loaded Suns team putting up 18/10 as a fifth option. The kid wants a role on the team. Wants to go JO on the league. You have to admire that. Portland fans certainly admired that of JO and loved him with Indy. I have no problem with Ayton coming to Portland and wanting to be a first, second or third option. Teams should be looking to establish a low post game early so he can make a couple quick buckets, get defenders to sag onto him and open up the three point shot for others. This is really a complete no brainer for me if the team is committed to using him properly. If Portland decides to run it back as a ball dominate, walk it up, point guard dominated team, it will just be a waste.
You're re setting yourself up for disappointment if/when we get Ayton here.

Tigers dont change their stripes. The player Ayton has been in Phoenix is largely the same player that we'll see in Portland. Its the same player that I watched when he was in College at Arizona.

He can be a very good player.... but his mentality/aproach to the game can be infuriating.

Hes very much like a Nurk situation & caliber of player. Sometimes you love him. Sometimes its WTF? Only major difference from Nurk is the age & salary (2x)
 
Hes very much like a Nurk situation & caliber of player. Sometimes you love him. Sometimes its WTF? Only major difference from Nurk is the age & salary (2x)

... and production.

He is much more productive than Nurk.

Given Portland's supposed salary situation if Dame is traded - it is worth the risk, if it works, great, if not, the Blazers will get out of his contract before they need to commit big salary to Shae and Scoot.
 
You're re setting yourself up for disappointment if/when we get Ayton here.

Tigers dont change their stripes. The player Ayton has been in Phoenix is largely the same player that we'll see in Portland. Its the same player that I watched when he was in College at Arizona.

He can be a very good player.... but his mentality/aproach to the game can be infuriating.

Hes very much like a Nurk situation & caliber of player. Sometimes you love him. Sometimes its WTF? Only major difference from Nurk is the age & salary (2x)

I'm with you on this. I live in Tempe and my kids love the Suns since they were born here. I've followed. My angle is that I think Ayton needs to be "the man." Being a vet and only 5-6 years older than Scoot/Sharpe I think will in Aytons mind make him a team leader. I think his mind works from being a leader, and he had no chance to be a leader in Phoenix with Booker, CP3, Durant and the new vets they picked up. On that team he is expected to put up 18/10 and just shut up. His 18 comes from put backs and hustle. They do not really run plays for him. Yes, they did in the playoffs, but that is a different game. Portland has to spend the money. He is off the books when Sharpe's extension is due. If it doesn't work out beyond him putting up 18/10, don't re-sign him. He can still be part of the tank then.
 
It's not a fool-proof plan. Ayton hasn't improved much in the last 3 years. OG can walk for nothing. Is that a fool-proof plan?

For years, the problem was that we we didn't have enough assets to put a contending team around Dame. We didn't have enough to go trade for the stars we needed. I don't want to go the same route with Scoot and Sharpe. They're 19 & 20. We have more time with them than we ever did with Dame. Focus on their development and accumulate assets.
The prioriry should be position of need starter or starter potential still in rookie deal plus draft capital in return for Dame so we have powder for when Sharpe and Scoot are ready. Barnes, Dick, filler, picks.
 
Toronto needs to choose between Barnes and OG, and if I am them I am keeping Barnes for multiple reasons. (injury history, salary next summer, 4 years younger) Plus his current salary helps more with matching Dame's salary. We will be disappointed if we think Barnes is coming back in return.
 
You're re setting yourself up for disappointment if/when we get Ayton here.

Tigers dont change their stripes. The player Ayton has been in Phoenix is largely the same player that we'll see in Portland. Its the same player that I watched when he was in College at Arizona.

He can be a very good player.... but his mentality/aproach to the game can be infuriating.

Hes very much like a Nurk situation & caliber of player. Sometimes you love him. Sometimes its WTF? Only major difference from Nurk is the age & salary (2x)

Sure, but what are we giving up? One frustrating big man and maybe some filler for a guy that could potentially figure it out. With Dame gone, it's not like we will be in financial trouble. We're still spending Paul's money.
 
Dame started right off the bat with Lamarcus, Matthews and Batum.
Dame hit that terrific game and series winner against Houston in his SECOND SEASON.
Does anyone want to go back in time and take that away, trade away Aldridge, Matthews and Batum and commence with tanking?
They only reason anyone would say "Yes" would be in hindsight, knowing Matthews would suffer a severe injury and Aldridge would leave.
But not knowing that, that team had potential.

Actually, I said we should trade LMA the summer of his last contract year before he left for nothing. I actually proposed among other trades, seeing if the Sixers would trade the then injured Embiid (who hadn't yet played) for Aldridge. I was largely condemned for it on BE.
 
wut?

If any free agent prefers their teams kowtowing to bullshit pressure over building the best roster .... i don't want them. This is such a ridiculous notion. Stop listening to Chris Haynes.

After seeing these offers, Dame will be the first one to understand.
Thank you, a grounded response!
 
Toronto needs to choose between Barnes and OG, and if I am them I am keeping Barnes for multiple reasons. (injury history, salary next summer, 4 years younger) Plus his current salary helps more with matching Dame's salary. We will be disappointed if we think Barnes is coming back in return.

Dame said he wants to play with OG. Portland should ask for Barnes. The numbers are more tricky but involving additional teams can solve that
 
No, dude, that’s exactly what I’m saying…

Why were we kowtowing to f’ing role players???

Who says we were? Maybe the offers just sucked because CJ is a Mid player, and Norm and Roco were correctly valued as we can see from their performance since the trade. Rocco has had one of the steepest declines I can recall without a huge injury.
 
Yeah, Dame is a bigger superstar than the Raptors have had since Vince. He has many national ad campaigns, actually I'm sure he has many international ad campaigns. While he's not LeBron or Steph he might be more appealing to teams from a marketing standpoint than guys much better than him like KD. Dame generates interest. So there is more to his value than just what he brings on the court especially here and in a place like Toronto.
In his prime, KD was much better than Dame but I’d say Dame was better than KD last year.
 

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