Game Thread 2024-25 GAME #17 - BLAZERS @ ROCKETS - NOV 23, 2024 - SAT - 5:00 PM - CHARGE, BLAZERVISION

[Kano John]

DC is definitely a keeper!

Not counting Clingan tonight, there have been 33 games in NBA history with 16+ rebounds and 0 points. Dennis Rodman has 12 of them including the top four.

Clingan’s defense was instrumental in setting the tone against a Rockets team that had just blown out the Blazers the night before. He’s also the first player to get 19 rebounds without scoring since Omer Asik did it in 2012.

Clingan is only the second player this season to have a game with three blocks and 19 rebounds, the other being Victor Wembanyama in October.

 

[kjironman1]

In a cost saving effort @THE HCP has been given extra responsibilities this season, he records rebounds with the same enthusiasm that he measures length.

You do know this is a +1 post. maybe even +2? If you don't get credit just know you should.
I would however replace "Length" with "Width". Just sayin.

 

[wizenheimer]

I've been saying it. This team is better than many have given them credit for. Both locally and nationally.

there were several of us saying that if the Blazers went with Simons-Ayton-Grant as primary options they might win 32-36 games. And that would be fucking idiotic considering the talent in the 2025 draft. A 7-10 record projects to 34 wins.

great...the team that is "better" than expected is still headed for the lottery, just the back end of the lottery. As usual, Blazer management finds the worst possible outcome

 

[Everything Beagle]

I've been saying it. This team is better than many have given them credit for. Both locally and nationally.

And it’s the kids making a difference (though last night the scoring belonged to our vets) which is the most encouraging

 

[kjironman1]

there were several of us saying that if the Blazers went with Simons-Ayton-Grant as primary options they might win 32-36 games. And that would be fucking idiotic considering the talent in the 2025 draft. A 7-10 record projects to 34 wins.

great...the team that is "better" than expected is still headed for the lottery, just the back end of the lottery. As usual, Blazer management finds the worst possible outcome

Unfortunately I have to agree with this. If you are going to suck then suck it right. Don't dabble in it. Go full throat! I mean once you are sucking you can't say you don't suck. Might as well suck well.
Did I get my tip..Err..Point across?

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

there were several of us saying that if the Blazers went with Simons-Ayton-Grant as primary options they might win 32-36 games. And that would be fucking idiotic considering the talent in the 2025 draft. A 7-10 record projects to 34 wins.

great...the team that is "better" than expected is still headed for the lottery, just the back end of the lottery. As usual, Blazer management finds the worst possible outcome

42 wins. Not 32-36. Like I said. I think they are better than most do, including you. Before you reiterate your projected wins based off of being 7-10, we might be 9-8 right now if we had played the youngs from the get go like we have the last six games.

So yes, I stand by might point. Ive been saying the youth of this team is better than most think.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

And it’s the kids making a difference (though last night the scoring belonged to our vets) which is the most encouraging

yep and agreed. Many have been saying we don't have near enough talent. I think the youth is better than most do. I think we are a .500/playin team and will continue to get better over the next couple of years even without adding more payers.
We are better than a bottom dwelling, number one lottery pick, team and i don't want to sacrifice that blossoming this season to play capture the flagg.

 

[wizenheimer]

42 wins. Not 32-36. Like I said. I think they are better than most do, including you. Before you reiterate your projected wins based off of being 7-10, we might be 9-8 right now if we had played the youngs from the get go like we have the last six games.

So yes, I stand by might point. Ive been saying the youth of this team is better than most think.

lol, c'mon man....you said 36 wins in the prediction thread and that was your 'best case' scenario. 22 wins was your worst case scenario. That averages out to 29. If I was lowballing at 32-36, I wasn't lowballing any more than you

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

lol, c'mon man....you said 36 wins in the prediction thread and that was your 'best case' scenario. 22 wins was your worst case scenario. That averages out to 29. If I was lowballing at 32-36, I wasn't lowballing any more than you

That was fully healthy but playing Ant and Ayton, etc.

If we go all youth, we are a playin team, again only if they stay healthy.
I have said i think we are near a playin team several times.
I can go edit my prediction if it helps.

My point was most people think there is not near enough talent on this team. I read it daily for most of the summer. A few wins or losses may differ but its the talent on the roster I'm mostly referring to.

You are getting hung up on a few wins. Ill get hung up on people saying we don't have near enough talent. That i disagree with.
My point was this team is young and will improve. If they are a 35-42 team, near the play in NOW, we are much more talented than people say. If we are a play in now team, it would be expected the young players will only continue to get better, making them better than a play in team in a couple years.
You are getting hung up on wins and losses as the defining factor and holding me to something that is fairly irrelevant to my point.

 

[wizenheimer]

My point was most people think there is not near enough talent on this team. .

that's not accurate. People like the youngish players and what they bring to the team. I like them. People appreciate their talent

but where most see a significant talent deficit on the roster is in elite 2-way talent. All-star and better talent. All-NBA level talent. Which is absolutely necessary to be a contender. And the ONLY path the Blazers have to land that kind of talent is the draft; and about the only way to do that in the draft is to have a top-5ish pick, And the only way the Blazers have to get a top-5 pick over the next 2-3 seasons is to lose a lot of games. That's reality

sure, the Blazers can just give up on landing an elite player. Hope against hope that Sharpe develops into one. But they need a lot more than one all-star. If they do give up, and to me, it kind of looks like they have, then they can settle for Simons-Ayton-Grant as the featured players (and re-sign Simons and Ayton at the end of next season). That's what this season has been so far. And what you seem to be implying is that if everything breaks in Portland's favor they may be a 36 win team; or if the Blazers even outpace that best expectation they could be a .500 team. Yippee!! A perpetual mediocrity of play-in/late-lottery with just maybe, an occasional 1st round exit to spice up the delusion

Portland won Saturday because of Grant & Simons. They won their 1st game of the season when Simons-Ayton-Grant scored 75 of Portland's 125 points. They had their first road win at LAC when their 'big-3' took more than half of the shots and scored half of the points. Same thing when they won at New Orleans; the big-3 took 46 of 84 shots and scored exactly half of Portland's points

in other words, 4 of Portland's 7 wins are because of Simons-Ayton-Grant. Maybe the Blazers would have won one of those games without that trio; maybe not. That is pointing at the worst outcome that many of us worry about: Those three veterans cratering any chance the Blazers have of landing an elite player in the loaded 2025 draft. For what? Where's the short-term and long term payoffs for riding those three guys? I don't see a single one. If they are on the roster and healthy, Chauncey will ride them. If they play, they will dominate the ball, take a majority of shots, hog usage, and yes, generate occasional wins that are building blocks for that worst outcome

I don't see anything to celebrate in that. I've said before if Portland is generating wins while playing the young guys, fine. An organic tank is much better than a blatant tank with faked injuries. But the wins generated by riding the big-3 are actually losses in my view

 

[Cugel]

POR has a few promising players in TC Deni and Sharpe. None however are blowing minds. This team needs players that blow minds to really be competative

 

[Phatguysrule]

That was fully healthy but playing Ant and Ayton, etc.

If we go all youth, we are a playin team, again only if they stay healthy.
I have said i think we are near a playin team several times.
I can go edit my prediction if it helps.

My point was most people think there is not near enough talent on this team. I read it daily for most of the summer. A few wins or losses may differ but its the talent on the roster I'm mostly referring to.

You are getting hung up on a few wins. Ill get hung up on people saying we don't have near enough talent. That i disagree with.
My point was this team is young and will improve. If they are a 35-42 team, near the play in NOW, we are much more talented than people say. If we are a play in now team, it would be expected the young players will only continue to get better, making them better than a play in team in a couple years.
You are getting hung up on wins and losses as the defining factor and holding me to something that is fairly irrelevant to my point.

We don't have near enough talent to compete for titles long term.

We have enough talent to be a middling play-in to first round and out team. Missing the play-in some years and maybe winning a first round series once or twice (if EVERYTHING breaks our way, all of our draft picks meet their potential, and we lose nobody to injury).

 

[Wizard Mentor]

That was fully healthy but playing Ant and Ayton, etc.

If we go all youth, we are a playin team, again only if they stay healthy.
I have said i think we are near a playin team several times.
I can go edit my prediction if it helps.

My point was most people think there is not near enough talent on this team. I read it daily for most of the summer. A few wins or losses may differ but its the talent on the roster I'm mostly referring to.

You are getting hung up on a few wins. Ill get hung up on people saying we don't have near enough talent. That i disagree with.
My point was this team is young and will improve. If they are a 35-42 team, near the play in NOW, we are much more talented than people say. If we are a play in now team, it would be expected the young players will only continue to get better, making them better than a play in team in a couple years.
You are getting hung up on wins and losses as the defining factor and holding me to something that is fairly irrelevant to my point.

I'm not a Pop fan, but I love one of his old quotes.
"The Spurs didn't make any trades this summer. How will that affect the team?"

"We traded rookie Tim Duncan for second year Tim Duncan. I think we'll be a lot better."

 

[wizenheimer]

I'm not a Pop fan, but I love one of his old quotes.
"The Spurs didn't make any trades this summer. How will that affect the team?"

"We traded rookie Tim Duncan for second year Tim Duncan. I think we'll be a lot better."

Duncan came into his rookie season as the #1 pick, and as the unanimous NCAA player of the year; he won the Wooden Award, the Naismith Award, and the USBWA College player of the year. In his rookie season he was named the NBA ROY when he averaged 21-12-3 with 2.5 blocks a game. As a rookie, he was named to the 1st team all-NBA and 2nd team all-NBA defense....as a rookie he was already a top-5 player

that's not any kind of template that fits the Blazers

 

[kjironman1]

Duncan came into his rookie season as the #1 pick, and as the unanimous NCAA player of the year; he won the Wooden Award, the Naismith Award, and the USBWA College player of the year. In his rookie season he was named the NBA ROY when he averaged 21-12-3 with 2.5 blocks a game. As a rookie, he was named to the 1st team all-NBA and 2nd team all-NBA defense....as a rookie he was already a top-5 player

that's not any kind of template that fits the Blazers

Sure isn’t. Now if they pick up Flagg? Then maybe they can start talking like that?

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

that's not accurate. People like the youngish players and what they bring to the team. I like them. People appreciate their talent

but where most see a significant talent deficit on the roster is in elite 2-way talent. All-star and better talent. All-NBA level talent. Which is absolutely necessary to be a contender. And the ONLY path the Blazers have to land that kind of talent is the draft; and about the only way to do that in the draft is to have a top-5ish pick, And the only way the Blazers have to get a top-5 pick over the next 2-3 seasons is to lose a lot of games. That's reality

sure, the Blazers can just give up on landing an elite player. Hope against hope that Sharpe develops into one. But they need a lot more than one all-star. If they do give up, and to me, it kind of looks like they have, then they can settle for Simons-Ayton-Grant as the featured players (and re-sign Simons and Ayton at the end of next season). That's what this season has been so far. And what you seem to be implying is that if everything breaks in Portland's favor they may be a 36 win team; or if the Blazers even outpace that best expectation they could be a .500 team. Yippee!! A perpetual mediocrity of play-in/late-lottery with just maybe, an occasional 1st round exit to spice up the delusion

Portland won Saturday because of Grant & Simons. They won their 1st game of the season when Simons-Ayton-Grant scored 75 of Portland's 125 points. They had their first road win at LAC when their 'big-3' took more than half of the shots and scored half of the points. Same thing when they won at New Orleans; the big-3 took 46 of 84 shots and scored exactly half of Portland's points

in other words, 4 of Portland's 7 wins are because of Simons-Ayton-Grant. Maybe the Blazers would have won one of those games without that trio; maybe not. That is pointing at the worst outcome that many of us worry about: Those three veterans cratering any chance the Blazers have of landing an elite player in the loaded 2025 draft. For what? Where's the short-term and long term payoffs for riding those three guys? I don't see a single one. If they are on the roster and healthy, Chauncey will ride them. If they play, they will dominate the ball, take a majority of shots, hog usage, and yes, generate occasional wins that are building blocks for that worst outcome

I don't see anything to celebrate in that. I've said before if Portland is generating wins while playing the young guys, fine. An organic tank is much better than a blatant tank with faked injuries. But the wins generated by riding the big-3 are actually losses in my view

I simply disagree. It is not the only way. We could package Ant/Ayton and picks... alot of them and get that type of player. Not saying right now, but at some point, yes, we can. Milwaukie might blow it up, like a scorer in Ant, consider Ayton an expiring and have alot of picks we give them. Add Giannis to the young guys, and who knows. Zion the same.

Yes, I understand the draft is the best way, but this assertion it is the only way is blatantly false. Again, My premise is many(maybe not you and some others, but many) have said again and again, we don't have near enough talent. Again, I disagree. I think we have more talent than those people realize and don't think we are several players away. One or two at most.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

We don't have near enough talent to compete for titles long term.

We have enough talent to be a middling play-in to first round and out team. Missing the play-in some years and maybe winning a first round series once or twice (if EVERYTHING breaks our way, all of our draft picks meet their potential, and we lose nobody to injury).

Correct. We have enough talent now to be a play in or near that. I disagree with you thinking the talent level we currently have will not continue to get better as your some years, type of analogy portrays. If we are a near play in now, we3 will naturally be better next year with another year of experience and growth for the young guys. Do you think Clingan and Scoot wont get any better than they are now? Toumani? Murray? They will get better. So we could be a second round team in another year or two without any further additions.

Its like some of you are of the opinion the youth wont get any better than they are now. That is highly unlikely.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I'm not a Pop fan, but I love one of his old quotes.
"The Spurs didn't make any trades this summer. How will that affect the team?"

"We traded rookie Tim Duncan for second year Tim Duncan. I think we'll be a lot better."

Exactly! Like our youth wont be better next year and the year after than they currently are?

 

[wizenheimer]

I simply disagree. It is not the only way. We could package Ant/Ayton and picks... alot of them and get that type of player

lol....right. Pretty clearly Ant and Ayton have a ton of value.

CJ + Nance--->Grant + Thybulle
Powell + RoCo--->Winslow + Keon
Brogdon + 2 first's--->Avdija

Blazers have tried what you suggest and haven't come close to landing an elite player

 

[Phatguysrule]

Correct. We have enough talent now to be a play in or near that. I disagree with you thinking the talent level we currently have will not continue to get better as your some years, type of analogy portrays. If we are a near play in now, we3 will naturally be better next year with another year of experience and growth for the young guys. Do you think Clingan and Scoot wont get any better than they are now? Toumani? Murray? They will get better. So we could be a second round team in another year or two without any further additions.

Its like some of you are of the opinion the youth wont get any better than they are now. That is highly unlikely.

If I was of the opinion that our youth wouldn't get any better then I would have said we would never have a chance to make the playoffs.

However, that is not what I said.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

lol....right. Pretty clearly Ant and Ayton have a ton of value.

CJ + Nance--->Grant + Thybulle
Powell + RoCo--->Winslow + Keon
Brogdon + 2 first's--->Avdija

Blazers have tried what you suggest and haven't come close to landing an elite player

Lol come on man. I said we would have to throw in alot of picks… why that was ignored, I don't know….

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

If I was of the opinion that our youth wouldn't get any better then I would have said we would never have a chance to make the playoffs.

However, that is not what I said.

No. It is what I have said that you are countering and simultaneously ignoring…. Again.

Its like you guys skip parts of posts or something…

One more time. Please follow along:

I am saying if all the youth is healthy aNd we play them all season like the last 7 games(4-3, ill even include the last game where kling kong didnt play) that we are a .500 team and near play in. I have said basically this several times.

I am also saying, if we are that now, then we will be naturally better next year and the year after without any additions.

Now lets see how much this gets twisted and contorted…

 

[Phatguysrule]

No. It is what I have said that you are countering and simultaneously ignoring…. Again.

Its like you guys skip parts of posts or something…

One more time. Please follow along:

I am saying if all the youth is healthy aNd we play them all season like the last 7 games(4-3, ill even include the last game where kling kong didnt play) that we are a .500 team and near play in. I have said basically this several times.

I am also saying, if we are that now, then we will be naturally better next year and the year after without any additions.

Now lets see how much this gets twisted and contorted…

Yeah, I covered all of that. They'll improve to making the playoffs. Maybe even winning a first round series once or twice.

And that's IF they all stay healthy and develop to their potential.

It would not be wise to count on that and think we have enough talent. We don't. Some guys aren't going to hit. Some guys are going to get injured.

Then in 5 years Grant will be retired or a shadow of himself and Ant, Ayton, and Canara will be in decline.

We won't have anybody to replace them because we have been drafting too late. Maybe we get lucky on one guy that everyone else misses.

 

[wizenheimer]

Lol come on man. I said we would have to throw in alot of picks… why that was ignored, I don't know….

Brogdon and TWO first round picks for Avdija fits that criteria. That's why I mentioned it. Is Avdija an elite player? an all-NBA player?

* the Clippers got PG13 for a lot of picks but they traded SGA and Gallinari (Gallo had just averaged 20-6 while shooting 43% from three)
* the Suns got Durant for a lot of picks, but they gave up Mikal Bridges and Cam Johnson
* the Cavs got Donovan Mitchell for a lot of picks but they gave up Markkanaen, Colin Sexton, & Agbaji

you suggested sending out Ayton and/or Simons plus a lot of picks. The differences between your suggestion and what usually happens in these cases is pretty extreme

usually, teams are sending out youngish players on smaller contracts. Ayton and Simons aren't youngish anymore and they combine for 60M this season and 63M next season; and they sure as hell aren't like SGA, Bridges, or Markkanen. But that's the thing: those two will have expiring contracts next season at the same time the Blazers will still solidly be a lottery team. Why would a lottery team send out any of it's lottery picks for a player like PG13 or Mitchell or Durant or Bridges? It would make no sense. That player isn't going to elevate his new team from the lottery to contending (see Dame/Blazers 2022-23). And his new team would be sacrificing opportunities to add a player like Wemby, or Banchero, or Edwards or Holmgren or Lamelo or Morant or Doncic.

Not only that they'd be potentially missing out on locking up a player like one of those for 4 years of a rookie deal and a minimum of 7-9 years with the rookie deal + extension. Meanwhile, that superstar they traded for might just walk in 1 or 2 or 3 years.

the draft...that's the only viable route for Portland right now and right now includes the next 3 or 4 years

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Yeah, I covered all of that. They'll improve to making the playoffs. Maybe even winning a first round series once or twice.

And that's IF they all stay healthy and develop to their potential.

It would not be wise to count on that and think we have enough talent. We don't. Some guys aren't going to hit. Some guys are going to get injured.

Then in 5 years Grant will be retired or a shadow of himself and Ant, Ayton, and Canara will be in decline.

We won't have anybody to replace them because we have been drafting too late. Maybe we get lucky on one guy that everyone else misses.

Then I disagree… again.
Making the playin is one to two wins from making the playoffs. Huge improvements you aRe giving them there….

round and round we go….

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Brogdon and TWO first round picks for Avdija fits that criteria. That's why I mentioned it. Is Avdija an elite player? an all-NBA player?

* the Clippers got PG13 for a lot of picks but they traded SGA and Gallinari (Gallo had just averaged 20-6 while shooting 43% from three)
* the Suns got Durant for a lot of picks, but they gave up Mikal Bridges and Cam Johnson
* the Cavs got Donovan Mitchell for a lot of picks but they gave up Markkanaen, Colin Sexton, & Agbaji

you suggested sending out Ayton and/or Simons plus a lot of picks. The differences between your suggestion and what usually happens in these cases is pretty extreme

usually, teams are sending out youngish players on smaller contracts. Ayton and Simons aren't youngish anymore and they combine for 60M this season and 63M next season; and they sure as hell aren't like SGA, Bridges, or Markkanen. But that's the thing: those two will have expiring contracts next season at the same time the Blazers will still solidly be a lottery team. Why would a lottery team send out any of it's lottery picks for a player like PG13 or Mitchell or Durant or Bridges? It would make no sense. That player isn't going to elevate his new team from the lottery to contending (see Dame/Blazers 2022-23). And his new team would be sacrificing opportunities to add a player like Wemby, or Banchero, or Edwards or Holmgren or Lamelo or Morant or Doncic.

Not only that they'd be potentially missing out on locking up a player like one of those for 4 years of a rookie deal and a minimum of 7-9 years with the rookie deal + extension. Meanwhile, that superstar they traded for might just walk in 1 or 2 or 3 years.

the draft...that's the only viable route for Portland right now and right now includes the next 3 or 4 years

So now two picks, or a couple of picks is the same as alot of picks????

Riiighhht….

Ant is still youngish. Anyone much younger will not have been proven enough to garner such a return.

Are you saying Ant/Ayton and four to five picks and possible pick swaps couldn't bet us an all star?

If so, I disagree.
You are referring to mostly the Olshey era and what he was/wasn't able to do. and he was by and large an idiot.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Then I disagree… again.
Making the playin is one to two wins from making the playoffs. Huge improvements you aRe giving them there….

round and round we go….

Because I definitely said that they would max out at barely making the playoffs...

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Because I definitely said that they would max out at barely making the playoffs...

Discussing things with you is pointless. I have been clear in my opinion. Agree or disagree and move on.

I love people who are just vague enough in future telling they can ride the fence and always be right.

They dont have near enough talent to compete

They are a 1st round/possibly second round team at times, at best.

They are a possible playin team now but will only improve to a first or second round exit team in the future.

Typically first and second round teams only need a move or two to become contenders.

But this team is no where near that, per some.

Stop hedging the prediction and be clear on where they are at and what they can become.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Discussing things with you is pointless. I have been clear in my opinion. Agree or disagree and move on.

I love people who are just vague enough in future telling they can ride the fence and always be right.

They dont have near enough talent to compete

They are a 1st round/possibly second round team at times, at best.

They are a possible playin team now but will only improve to a first or second round exit team in the future.

Typically first and second round teams only need a move or two to become contenders.

But this team is no where near that, per some.

Stop hedging the prediction and be clear on where they are at and what they can become.

I could be wrong, but I believe PGR's position has always been predicated not so much on "what they can become" vs what course of action provides the best chance for the team becoming the contender we want them to be.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I could be wrong, but I believe PGR's position has always been predicated not so much on "what they can become" vs what course of action provides the best chance for the team becoming the contender we want them to be.

I agree. thats why im confused as to why he is even quoting me and disagreeing with what im saying.
Since his point is different than mine, why is he quoting me with contention?

He is not being clear in hos quoting and parcing words for some reason instead of clearly pointing out what specifically he disagrees with, he says things like, “I never said that.”
But in quoting me and disagreeing, it is implied he is saying something other than what I said.

It would if he would be precise in his post he quoted me on, what specifically he thinks im wrong about and why…