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SlyPokerDog said:
Mario and staff were great at a lot of things. Developing QBs was not one of them.
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you may be right. Problem is there needs to be high level talent to develop. Ducks may not have had that

I had hope for Thompson but what I heard was that he was having all kinds of trouble with progressions.
 
wizenheimer said:
you may be right. Problem is there needs to be high level talent to develop. Ducks may not have had that

I had hope for Thompson but what I heard was that he was having all kinds of trouble with progressions.
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You mean high level like Herbert? Did Mario and staff really do anything to improve him?
 
SlyPokerDog said:
You mean high level like Herbert? Did Mario and staff really do anything to improve him?
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he was pretty good his senior season. The problem was that the Ducks had no receiver who could consistently gain any separation from defenders. All three of their best receivers that season, Juwan Johnson, Jacob Breeland, and Mycah Pittman missed half of the season

people see how Herbert is doing in the NFL, compare it to how he did at Oregon and assume he wasn't developed there. But, if he didn't develop at Oregon, he wouldn't be doing what he's doing in the pro's. If he had the kind of receivers at Oregon he has at LA, he would have probably won a Heisman. Hell, if he had the kind of receivers his final season at Oregon that Mariota had his final season, he may have won a Heisman

people forget what happened when Taggart left. These were the de-commitments from the Ducks that class:

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the Ducks lost 6 WR's and a TE in the class before Herbert's junior season. They never really recovered from that even though Cristobal did a good job salvaging the class
 

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SlyPokerDog said:
With the talent those guys had coming out of high school them not being ready would be more of a reflection of the coaching staff and not the players themself, IMO.
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Agreed. Maybe that's why Cristobal decided to get out before he was labeled as being unable to develop quarterbacks.

Take the shot at his dream job while his stock is still fairly high...
 
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Mahomes is still better than Herbert. He now gets paid a ton of money. Herbert will go through the same struggles when he is paid a boatload and his team can't afford as many players because of his huge contract.

Mahomes still has his team on top of the AFC West. We will see if Herbert comes close to what Mahomes has done. It won't matter if he can never win one.

I say this all as a Raiders fan. I don't think Herbert can catch Mahomes.
 
SlyPokerCat said:
Mahomes is still better than Herbert. He now gets paid a ton of money. Herbert will go through the same struggles when he is paid a boatload and his team can't afford as many players because of his huge contract.

Mahomes still has his team on top of the AFC West. We will see if Herbert comes close to what Mahomes has done. It won't matter if he can never win one.

I say this all as a Raiders fan. I don't think Herbert can catch Mahomes.
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I think he's overrated and I think he has benefited from being on a very good team with a lot of weapons and a very good coach. You put that dude on the Lions or the Jags and he's a mess. Also, as I said before, he has been extremely lucky. Dude had an insanely high number of dropped interceptions the past few years.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Yeah, Oregon severely underutilized Herbert.
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ok....I'm saying that's mostly urban myth. Compare Herbert's senior season to Mariota's Heisman season:

* Herbert attempted 30.6 passes a game; Mariota attempted 29.7 passes a game

* Herbert passing was 45% of the Duck offense; Mariota passing was 40% of the Duck offense

that's not really under-utilized

there were differences of course. Mariota ran for 770 yards. He was a much better runner than Herbert while the Duck coaching staff severely restricted running by Herbert. They had seen the impact of Herbert missing games because of injury in Taggart's HC season. A 1-5 record without Herbert

and of course Mariota just had much better receivers; both quality and quantity. In Herbert's junior season, Oregon led the nation in dropped passes; 57 (IIRC, 4.4 dropped passes/game was an NCAA record)

again, it's hard to fully utilize an elite QB when you have mediocre receivers. And Taggart leaving wiped out a recruiting class of receiving talent. Five 4-star receivers and a couple of 3 star receivers. Brenden Schooler transferred as well

Herbert's senior season the Ducks went 12-2. They won the Pac-12 championship by clobbering a favored Utah in the title game. Then won the Rose Bowl over a favored Wisconsin. Ducks wouldn't have done that if Herbert was being used wrong.

I'm not saying Oregon had an optimal offense at the time. An offense can probably always be better. But the way Herbert was used was the least of that issue, IMO. And the equation that a lot of people are pumping out: 'Herbert is so great in the NFL, he should have won Heisman's and National championships at Oregon, ergo, the Ducks used him wrong and didn't develop him' is an equation that doesn't withstand scrutiny. In fact, logically, the equation could very well be that 'Herbert is so great in the NFL because of how he was developed at Oregon'. That makes more sense than the first one
 
Natebishop3 said:
I think he's overrated and I think he has benefited from being on a very good team with a lot of weapons and a very good coach. You put that dude on the Lions or the Jags and he's a mess. Also, as I said before, he has been extremely lucky. Dude had an insanely high number of dropped interceptions the past few years.
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We will see. People said the same thing about Brady being carried by Belichik. I don't see it. Mahomes makes throws that are insane. He could end up the best qb of all time.
 
SlyPokerCat said:
We will see. People said the same thing about Brady being carried by Belichik. I don't see it. Mahomes makes throws that are insane. He could end up the best qb of all time.
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The QB position is so reliant on a myriad of variables.

Does the QB have a good stable of WR?

Does the QB have a good line?

Does the QB have a good OC?

Was Brady carried by BB? No way. But did Brady benefit from having a very good coach and a team that was consistently solid put around him? Most definitely. I think it's extremely hard for young QB's to recover from being put in a bad situation. They get hurt. They lose confidence. They develop bad habits. I still think Mariota could have had a much better career if he hadn't been on a total dumpster fire of a team. His best season was when he had a healthy line and a healthy DeMarco Murray. His line went to shit and his OC changed every year and the dude got hurt repeatedly. It changed him. You could see the confidence was gone. By the time the team caught up and had all the pieces, the guy was so beat up and mentally broken that it was too late. He lost feeling in his throwing hand for a full season. I think he's a good example of a young QB that could have potentially had a much better career if he had been drafted in a better situation like Herbert or Mahomes.
 
Natebishop3 said:
The QB position is so reliant on a myriad of variables.

Does the QB have a good stable of WR?

Does the QB have a good line?

Does the QB have a good OC?

Was Brady carried by BB? No way. But did Brady benefit from having a very good coach and a team that was consistently solid put around him? Most definitely. I think it's extremely hard for young QB's to recover from being put in a bad situation. They get hurt. They lose confidence. They develop bad habits. I still think Mariota could have had a much better career if he hadn't been on a total dumpster fire of a team. His best season was when he had a healthy line and a healthy DeMarco Murray. His line went to shit and his OC changed every year and the dude got hurt repeatedly. It changed him. You could see the confidence was gone. By the time the team caught up and had all the pieces, the guy was so beat up and mentally broken that it was too late. He lost feeling in his throwing hand for a full season. I think he's a good example of a young QB that could have potentially had a much better career if he had been drafted in a better situation like Herbert or Mahomes.
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Derek carr deserves more respect for the reasons you stated. He clawed his way to a top 10-12 qb with odds against him. That dude has gone through so man coaching changes. Raiders coaches say it isn't close.between Mariota and Carr even though dumb fans call for Carr to be benched.

Mariota just can't stay healthy. His hamstrings are shot.
 
SlyPokerCat said:
Derek carr deserves more respect for the reasons you stated. He clawed his way to a top 10-12 qb with odds against him. That dude has gone through so man coaching changes. Raiders coaches say it isn't close.between Mariota and Carr even though dumb fans call for Carr to be benched.

Mariota just can't stay healthy. His hamstrings are shot.
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The Titans ruined him. The guy played with basically half a throwing hand for a full season. He had no protection and you can tell that it messed with his mind. He's just not the same guy at all anymore.
 
SlyPokerCat said:
Mahomes is still better than Herbert. He now gets paid a ton of money. Herbert will go through the same struggles when he is paid a boatload and his team can't afford as many players because of his huge contract. Mahomes still has his team on top of the AFC West. We will see if Herbert comes close to what Mahomes has done. It won't matter if he can never win one. I say this all as a BEAVS fan. I don't think Herbert can catch Mahomes.
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FIFY

Mahomes makes throws that are insane.
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STOMP
 
SlyPokerCat said:
Me being a Beavs fan has nothing to do with my feelings on Herbert. I loved Marcus coming out of Oregon. He is on my favorite team.

It is simply delusional to think Herbert is close to Mahomes right now.

I'm not saying he has zero chance of surpassing him one day. He certainly could.

He is just not Mahomes.

I'll give you he can be in the same tier of Josh Allen, Kyler Murray. If you think that is hating I don't know what to tell you.
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To me, Mahomes is Brett Favre. He can shoot you out of a game just as quickly as he can shoot you in. He's a HOFer. He's a great QB, but also very flawed.

I'm hoping that Herby can be a more stable QB. I don't want to say Brady because nobody is Brady. I can't think of a single QB who could do what he's doing at his age. It's like Jordan coming back at 40 and still being one of the best in the game. Not THE best, mind you, but still an All-Star caliber player.
 
Natebishop3 said:
To me, Mahomes is Brett Favre. He can shoot you out of a game just as quickly as he can shoot you in. He's a HOFer. He's a great QB, but also very flawed.

I'm hoping that Herby can be a more stable QB. I don't want to say Brady because nobody is Brady. I can't think of a single QB who could do what he's doing at his age. It's like Jordan coming back at 40 and still being one of the best in the game. Not THE best, mind you, but still an All-Star caliber player.
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He has to win before we start anointing him anything. Andrew Luck was the next great QB and what happened to him? Mahomes won one and took his team to the super bowl a second time. It would not surprise me if the Chiefs made the super bowl again this year. Even with the issues they have.

I hate the Chiefs. I hate the Broncos. I don't hate the Chargers. I liked Rivers and his trash talk.
 
SlyPokerCat said:
Me being a Beavs fan has nothing to do with my feelings on Herbert. I loved Marcus coming out of Oregon. He is on my favorite team.

It is simply delusional to think Herbert is close to Mahomes right now.

I'm not saying he has zero chance of surpassing him one day. He certainly could.

He is just not Mahomes.

I'll give you he can be in the same tier of Josh Allen, Kyler Murray. If you think that is hating I don't know what to tell you.
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well, here is the comparison for this season:

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it's about as close as it could be. But, Herbert has a little higher completion%; has passed for more TD's and fewer interceptions; has a better QB rating; a higher yard/attempt. In that middle box, for all those +boxes, higher is better and Herbert has an advantage in nearly every category

main thing is that Mahomes plays on a better more experienced team and is 3 years older with 3 more years of experience. I'd grant that Mahomes has proven a lot more and is likely better. But the gap isn't as big as you imply
 

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wizenheimer said:
well, here is the comparison for this season:

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it's about as close as it could be. But, Herbert has a little higher completion%; has passed for more TD's and fewer interceptions; has a better QB rating; a higher yard/attempt. In that middle box, for all those +boxes, higher is better and Herbert has an advantage in nearly every category

main thing is that Mahomes plays on a better more experienced team and is 3 years older with 3 more years of experience. I'd grant that Mahomes has proven a lot more and is likely better. But the gap isn't as big as you imply
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Who would you pick this year? Mahomes. He HAS won. He has proven he can. Herbert hasn't proven anything yet. If he wins one this year or in the next three years, by all means. I will concede they are comparable.

Going off stats. Derek Carr was the #1 qb in the league after three games.

Lets put up Dame and Ja Morant side by side too and make a decision on who is better based on this year.
 
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Natebishop3 said:
The QB position is so reliant on a myriad of variables.

Does the QB have a good stable of WR?

Does the QB have a good line?

Does the QB have a good OC?

Was Brady carried by BB? No way. But did Brady benefit from having a very good coach and a team that was consistently solid put around him? Most definitely. I think it's extremely hard for young QB's to recover from being put in a bad situation. They get hurt. They lose confidence. They develop bad habits. I still think Mariota could have had a much better career if he hadn't been on a total dumpster fire of a team. His best season was when he had a healthy line and a healthy DeMarco Murray. His line went to shit and his OC changed every year and the dude got hurt repeatedly. It changed him. You could see the confidence was gone. By the time the team caught up and had all the pieces, the guy was so beat up and mentally broken that it was too late. He lost feeling in his throwing hand for a full season. I think he's a good example of a young QB that could have potentially had a much better career if he had been drafted in a better situation like Herbert or Mahomes.
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In today’s NFL a good QB always has a good slot receiver to go with him. Someone he can dump it off to if there’s nothing there on the reads.
 
MickZagger said:
In today’s NFL a good QB always has a good slot receiver to go with him. Someone he can dump it off to if there’s nothing there on the reads.
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Herbert has two of the best in the league he can dump off to in Keenan Allen and Austin Ekeler out of the backfield. I also like drafting Keenan Allen in fantasy because he is a guaranteed floor of like 10 every week.
 
SlyPokerCat said:
Me being a Beavs fan has nothing to do with my feelings on Herbert. I loved Marcus coming out of Oregon. He is on my favorite team. It is simply delusional to think Herbert is close to Mahomes right now. I'm not saying he has zero chance of surpassing him one day. He certainly could. He is just not Mahomes. I'll give you he can be in the same tier of Josh Allen, Kyler Murray. If you think that is hating I don't know what to tell you.
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Right he's not close to Mahomes and those who think so are delusional. Statistics and opinions be damned as whatever some Beavis fan says on the internets must be true and accepted as such... totally reasonable

He has to win before we start anointing him anything.
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Agreed, Dan Marino sucked. Dan Fouts was another pretender. Not winning a championship had nothing to do with their teammates and everything about them. Now Trent Dilfer on the other hand, thats a champion!

Andrew Luck was the next great QB and what happened to him?
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concussions

STOMP
 
STOMP said:
Right he's not close to Mahomes and those who think so are delusional. Statistics and opinions be damned as whatever some Beavis fan says on the internets must be true and accepted as such... totally reasonable


Agreed, Dan Marino sucked. Dan Fouts was another pretender. Not winning a championship had nothing to do with their teammates and everything about them. Now Trent Dilfer on the other hand, thats a champion!


concussions

STOMP
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Statistics means Ja Morant is better than Dame.

Herbert can be the Dan Marino to Mahomes Joe Montana.

You act like me being a Beavers fan has anything to do with this take. It does not. But it is apparent you being a Ducks fan certainly is influencing your opinion.
 
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