Notice Joe Cronin New GM

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bigbailes said:
Why not at least have the foresight to put that stipulation in instead of taking back a Bucks pick that is going to be in the 20's? Maybe free fall wasn't accurate but they were hanging on for dear life.
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Because maybe the Pelicans didn't want to?

You guys do realize it takes two teams to agree, right?
 
illmatic99 said:
regardless, i've explained my thoughts on his deals ad nauseum and i'm of the belief that this CJ deal did not necessarily have to be done at the time. Don't really wanna rehash. The point in the end of it all still remains, he got pretty shitty return. Not sure how that consideration in a vacuum can be denied.
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except he wasn't operating in a vacuum and none of us know for certain what demands the Vulcans made on him. And to believe the return was shitty you also have to believe there were better deals out there. Maybe there were but I sure haven't seen a shred of evidence that's true

I said in this thread I actually would have preferred somebody besides Joe because it's a fairly critical draft and off-season.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Stop being reasonable
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Reasonable doesn't work here. It's all or nothing!

Ignoring that the Pelicans pick could only be 5-14, and that no one expected the Lakers pick to be lotto and if the Pelicans gave it up, they weren't going to let a top 8 pick go if they could avoid it (since it's their only pick this year).

Extenuating circumstances matter, and god forbid people remember that just because some jabroni on YouTube or Twitter said it could happen, doesn't mean it was an option.

CJ was barely worth a lotto pick. Especially given the team needed out of his contract and there wasn't a plethora of teams offering trades that made sense both team wise and $ wise
 
The Pelicans wanted CJ and CJ wanted them (a rarity for New Orleans).

The Pelicans wanted to make the playoffs (or at least were going for the play-in).

The Pelicans liked CJ enough to give up a potential lottery pick if they DIDN'T accomplish their goal of the trade.

Name another trade where if the team receiving the player doesn't reach their goal the trade turns out better for them then if they do achieve it?

Cronin got absolutely obliterated by Griffin in negotiations. It doesn't matter what any other offers were, he couldn't even negotiate better terms with a team that was willing to give up something valuable if the trade didn't go well. It's an absolute failure and should immediately discredit him from ever touching a GM position again. There is literally no excuse for this blunder.
 
hoopsjock said:
The Pelicans wanted CJ and CJ wanted them (a rarity for New Orleans).


The Pelicans liked CJ enough to give up a potential lottery pick if they DIDN'T accomplish their goal of the trade.

Name another trade where if the team receiving the player doesn't reach their goal the trade turns out better for them then if they do achieve it?
.
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How does it turn out better for new Orleans? They didn't keep their pick, their pick was already gone unless it was top 4. By making the playoffs, they lost an additional asset in the 2025 pick.
 
There were three parties involved in that trade, the Blazers, Pelicans and CJ with 2 out of the 3 getting what they wanted. I don't want the GM that comes out as the only loser of the bunch. If the Pels and CJ really wanted the deal to happen that badly, than you make sure you get a 2nd pick in this draft, not some hope that Giannis blows out his knee in 2025. I'll give Cronin the benefit of the doubt and assume he was doing the bidding of the Vulcans, but it seems like his specialty is in cap management and not negotiating trades, which is a trait I really don't like in a GM.
 
RR7 said:
How does it turn out better for new Orleans? They didn't keep their pick, their pick was already gone unless it was top 4. By making the playoffs, they lost an additional asset in the 2025 pick.
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Because if they made the playoffs, they were going to do it at the expense of the Lakers, whose pick they also had. They lost a future Milwaukee pick but gained a top 10 pick because they kept the Lakers pick (it went to the Grizzlies if it was 11-30). This was a likely scenario that I talked about right after the trade, two months before it played out.

If they were willing to give up that same range of lottery pick for CJ if they sucked after the trade, Cronin had to negotiate this scenario into the deal.

Now, it could've had the same protections (1-4 NO keeps it) and the Blazers could've still gotten unlucky, but that had to be the backup protections.
 
Wade Garrett said:
YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Welcome back to Class, Dignity,Vision, and Trust.
I COULD NOT FUCKING BE HAPPIER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Character matters.
You'll see.
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That 2019 Olshey-built team was roundly applauded for its team atmosphere and leadership. Character doesn't matter for shit to you in reality. You think Olshey is a bad character because you are an NPC.
 
hoopsjock said:
Because if they made the playoffs, they were going to do it at the expense of the Lakers, whose pick they also had. They lost a future Milwaukee pick but gained a top 10 pick because they kept the Lakers pick (it went to the Grizzlies if it was 11-30). This was a likely scenario that I talked about right after the trade, two months before it played out.

If they were willing to give up that same range of lottery pick for CJ if they sucked after the trade, Cronin had to negotiate this scenario into the deal.

Now, it could've had the same protections (1-4 NO keeps it) and the Blazers could've still gotten unlucky, but that had to be the backup protections.
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The Lakers were a half game behind the Clippers at the time of the trade. The pelicans making the playoffs didn't hinge on the Lakers not making it.
 
RR7 said:
The Lakers were a half game behind the Clippers at the time of the trade. The pelicans making the playoffs didn't hinge on the Lakers not making it.
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If a GM doesn't have the foresight to plan for all scenarios to occur, they suck at their job.

Neither the Clippers or Lakers made the playoffs, what's your point?
 
hoopsjock said:
If a GM doesn't have the foresight to plan for all scenarios to occur, they suck at their job.
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As was mentioned previously, it takes 2 teams to negotiate.
 
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RR7 said:
As was mentioned previously, it rakes 2 teams to negotiate.
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Again, if the team that you're negotiating with gets to give up less to you if they accomplish their goal of the trade, you failed at those negotiations.

Jake L Fischer reported that the Blazers were assuming the Pelicans weren't going to make the playoffs. That's not a case of "taking 2 teams to negotiate." It appears Cronin thought the Lakers would get things together. To just assume that is bad GM'ing no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
 
hoopsjock said:
If this scenario was as unlikely as you suggested, it's even worse that Cronin couldn't get it thrown in on the off chance it did.
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Cronin can't just force the other team to include stuff. They all had access to the probabilities for each pick.

It's very possible that the Pels were willing to include that pick with protections because they were confident they were going to make the playoffs, and that's the only reason.

We don't know. So holding that against Cronin makes little sense to me. It's just splitting hairs.

To me it looks like Cronin got about the best value out of CJ as was available, and took a swing at getting much better value.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
Cronin can't just force the other team to include stuff. They all had access to the probabilities for each pick.

It's very possible that the Pels were willing to include that pick with protections because they were confident they were going to make the playoffs, and that's the only reason.

We don't know. So holding that against Cronin makes little sense to me. It's just splitting hairs.

To me it looks like Cronin got about the best value out of CJ as was available, and took a swing at getting much better value.
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So give me an example of another trade where the team that accomplished their goal had to give up less when they did so? Should be easy to do, no?

According to reports, Cronin was operating under the assumption they were going to have two lottery picks. That seems to imply the opposite of what you're trying to excuse.
 
hoopsjock said:
So give me an example of another trade where the team that accomplished their goal had to give up less when they did ?
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If pelicans reach their goal, they lose their pick to Memphis, and 2025 pick to us. If they miss out on their goal, they lose their pick. The Lakers pick requires something separate to happen, and should not be included in the calculation of what they gave up or didn't. They lost 2 picks versus 1. achieving their goal instead of w.
 
hoopsjock said:
If a GM doesn't have the foresight to plan for all scenarios to occur, they suck at their job.

Neither the Clippers or Lakers made the playoffs, what's your point?
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Couldn't we say the same thing about Olshey not having a plan for if Evan Turner, Allen Crabbe, Meyers Leonard, Harkless, and Festus weren't worth $200m in the summer of 2016. Or why he didn't have a plan for us to be a contender if he whiffed on obtaining meaninful talent with 3 first round picks in 2017?

Also, how would any reporter know what Cronin's plans are? Do you think he's sharing all of them with Jake Fischer?

If people want to make a claim that they aren't thrilled with the NOP trade, that's perfectly acceptable. Believing that an entire front office is spending 40+ hours a week only thinking about one plan and they have no alternative plans is nearly impossible to believe. I'm hard on Olshey, but I wouldn't even begin to claim that his only plan to build championship around Dame was trading five 1st round picks for Collins, RoCo, and Nance. I'm sure Olshey had a lot of plans that were bad or that he failed to execute.
 
RR7 said:
If pelicans reach their goal, they lose their pick to Memphis, and 2025 pick to us. If they miss out on their goal, they lose their pick. The Lakers pick requires something separate to happen, and should not be included in the calculation of what they gave up or didn't. They lost 2 picks versus 1. achieving their goal instead of w.
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You're mixing separate trades for the value they were willing to give up in THIS trade. They gave up less to US by CJ working out than if he DID work out for them.

You can keep coming up with excuses, but that is inexcusable.
 
Tince said:
Couldn't we say the same thing about Olshey not having a plan for if Evan Turner, Allen Crabbe, Meyers Leonard, Harkless, and Festus weren't worth $200m in the summer of 2016. Or why he didn't have a plan for us to be a contender if he whiffed on obtaining meaninful talent with 3 first round picks in 2017?

Also, how would any reporter know what Cronin's plans are? Do you think he's sharing all of them with Jake Fischer?

If people want to make a claim that they aren't thrilled with the NOP trade, that's perfectly acceptable. Believing that an entire front office is spending 40+ hours a week only thinking about one plan and they have no alternative plans is nearly impossible to believe. I'm hard on Olshey, but I wouldn't even begin to claim that his only plan to build championship around Dame was trading five 1st round picks for Collins, RoCo, and Nance. I'm sure Olshey had a lot of plans that were bad or that he failed to execute.
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We're not talking about any Olshey trade.

I take it you can't come up with an example either so you have to resort to "you don't know what the GM did" excuses? Again, it doesn't matter, he lost the negotiations, big time.
 
wizenheimer said:
Blazerkor meltdown in 3....2....1
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It was pretty clear this was coming. I like the way Joe comes off as a person but I worry that he might be a little too nice to make the shrewd moves that will be necessary in order to keep his word to Dame, that he will build and contender around him.
illmatic99 said:
i mean... this was expected given the autonomy he had to hire and fire staff.

i'm just waiting to see if they hire someone above him.
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I still hope that we hire a president of basketball operations really soon but I'm not holding my breath. Like I said above I don't think Joe is shrewd enough and it seems that if he accomplishes his goals in a trade that to this point I don't think are ambitious or competitive enough, that he doesn't really care if he's overpaying the other team but this is a fucking street fight and you can't let another GM get over on you as bad as he already has twice. So a critical basketball mind keeping that charitable spirit towards rival front offices, being in charge of Joe would be nice.

illmatic99 said:
or something that's better than that MIL 2025 pick that is fairly inconsequential in the present situation where the tenet is to build around Dame.
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The Pelicans owned 5 first round picks (if the Lakers pick conveyed which it did) between the pick of theirs that didn't convey this year and the 2025 Bucks first rounder. The further away a pick is and the more promising the future of the team whose pick it is, the lower the value. So Joe had 5 picks with higher value that should have all been on the table as contingencies. He negotiated a deal that would punish us if it was better for the Pelicans than if it was worse for them. So if what we sent out was better than originally thought we got a worse return... how the fuck is that OK?!?

So Joe has two big trades that he shit the bed on... I don't know how anyone can see it any other way. CJ and Larry for Hart, Didi and the Bucks 2025 first... fucking sucks especially when Joe thought it was going to be a pick in this draft between 9 and 12. Norm and RoCo for Justise and Keon is a fucking joke and a joke that he pulled the trigger on way too soon. For all of you who basically say that these were the best deals possible because they were the ones we made, what fucking cave have you been living in? GMs make bad deals all of the time... I can't guarantee you we could have done better but the returns we ended up with were not acceptable. NAW for Ingles could be a milk toast neutral move in value, that does make sense given Dame's timeline but it's risky when considering that Ingles had been on the decline before he blew his ACL. That's still a limited sample size and I hope Joe never allows other teams to get over on us like the Clippers and Pelicans did, regardless of if he's being pressured by ownership to manage the cap or not. It's a bad precedent that he's set and I think he might have a really hard time getting fair value from other GMs because they saw that the guy will just give away productive players for way less value than they're worth if a better deal isn't handed to him on a silver platter. (I left out the second round picks because we buy them for cash all of the time)

This isn't some nightmare scenario because those deals are done and we can all hope that they're the worst deals of Joe's career. We will get to see very soon what this guy can do because he's going to have to get creative in order to keep his word to Dame. I'm nervous about what he does on draft day but I'm also hopeful that it's fantastic and completely changes my opinion of him and puts GMs around the league on notice that he's not someone they can get over on. I wish Joe Cronin all of the luck in the world and hope he's a fantastic GM for us for a long time because he seems like a good guy and it just behooves me as a Blazers fan. GO BLAZERS!!!
 
Tince said:
Couldn't we say the same thing about Olshey not having a plan for if Evan Turner, Allen Crabbe, Meyers Leonard, Harkless, and Festus weren't worth $200m in the summer of 2016. Or why he didn't have a plan for us to be a contender if he whiffed on obtaining meaninful talent with 3 first round picks in 2017?
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Lawyers call this an argument that proves too much. Olshey made some horrible mistakes and screwed up our cap space situation in the process. Who was his resident cap expert? The guy who just got handed the job without the franchise even interviewing other candidates.

Re ipsa loquitor.
 
DDolla said:
When do we create a new thread of Fire Cronin? Before or after the draft?
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For me, definitely after. I'm going to hope that the whole league supposedly knowing that he had a mandate from ownership to slash salaries (which if this is the case what in the actual fuck are we doing) and that his interim title really crippled him in February. So I think he might be able to put his foot down... if he's capable of that sort of thing and tell GMs he talks to now that it's a whole new ball game. I'm hoping for really good things in June and July. So if we think that June and July suck, we would want to start that the fire Cronin talk then but a thread would be a joke because the Vulcan's are on the hook for a four year deal and if they don't have cause, they're not firing this guy.
 
hoopsjock said:
If a GM doesn't have the foresight to plan for all scenarios to occur, they suck at their job.

Neither the Clippers or Lakers made the playoffs, what's your point?
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The NO pick conveys if PG doesn’t contract Covid-19 the day before the game vs the Pelicans. Please show me the predictive model that would have forecasted this.
 
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