OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national anthem

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

and you just took the lords name in Vain, so...

He's about to play basketball yet going out of his way to not stand with his teammates and listen to the countries anthem. It's disrespectful.

So what if he's about to play basketball? Standing at attention for the NA is not a law.



Saying he should be forced to leave the country, fouled hard and disrespectful to the country is not the same as calling someone a dick.

You are aware that nookobs is an atheist right?!

 

[jlprk]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

"Your analogy holds only if your religion disallows that, as Waiters' religion does. Does yours?"

Let's pick a better analogy. Let's say that you visit a country in which some custom conflicts with Judaeo-Christian rules. Say you're expected to murder. Which is higher priority, obeying your religion, or avoiding disrespect of your host country?

Noknobs is hitting the "disrespecting a country" angle hard. Obviously, there are higher priorities than avoiding disrespect to a country.

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

First of all, it's more than a little condescending to assume that the relatively well-educated people in this forum, myself included, do not understand this concept.

Second, the reason I said you were conflating the two was because you wrote this:



You say FoS means multiple things, and then you immediately go into freedom of religion.

Let's see, the title of this thread is what again?
Oh that's right..

"Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant"

now why would I bring up religion here..

Read the first amendment again--perhaps you'll notice that religion is mentioned prior to speech. That should indicate that freedom of religion is not a subsect of freedom of speech, but a separate issue. By combining them, you're conflating them.

how you act is part of speech. If your religion says you can't act a certain way, your act (refusing to say the pledge, be present for the NA) is part of both your speech and religious freedom.

Now, back to what I originally said, which seemed to escape you. While everyone else was lambasting Waiters, I specifically said that I wanted to hear from him an elaboration of his reasoning, that I may then come to a conclusion on how I feel about his stance. The link Denny provided is irrelevant to what I posted, because it is not what I said I would need in order to form an informed opinion. Neither are your statements relevant to my opinion about Dion Waiters' stance here.

Then you misunderstood what my first response to your post was. I wasn't saying what you wanted wasn't important, but that I agreed and that to me it didn't matter what his reasoning was.

The only person's thoughts that I personally am interested in on this matter are Waiters' and his alone, because he is the one making the choice. And no, I have never said there's anything wrong with him not standing for the anthem, or that he should be forced to do so, and I have never said he should go to another country, or that by accepting a paycheck in the US he is somehow obligated to observe the national anthem, or say the pledge of allegiance, or salute the flag, or thank members of the military, or anything else.

The ONLY statement I made was that I'd like to hear more from Dion Waiters about this. Why is that worth arguing with?

Wasn't arguing. Sorry if you thought my first post (in response to yours) was arguing.

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

and you just took the lords name in Vain, so...


So what if he's about to play basketball? Standing at attention for the NA is not a law.



Saying he should be forced to leave the country, fouled hard and disrespectful to the country is not the same as calling someone a dick.

I go mushroom hunting with a guy named Jesus Torres, he doesn't think it's using his name in vain..talk about stereotypes

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

You are aware that nookobs is an atheist right?!

you do know what means, right?

 

[noknobs]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

and you just took the lords name in Vain, so...

I'm missing your point. If in fact you even have one.

Standing at attention for the NA is not a law.

No shit, Sherlock. I thought I was pretty clear on that point already.

Saying he should be forced to leave the country, fouled hard and disrespectful to the country is not the same as calling someone a dick.

I never even remotely said he should be forced to leave the country or fouled hard. He's being disrespectful and he's a dick. Are you high? Like really really really high?

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

you do know what means, right?

Well just making sure because you've been all over the place in this thread

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

Exactly!

Like Julius, he picks and chooses his belief as some sort of cheesy stand.

I'm not sure if realizing that people are free to hold different beliefs than me is "cheesy".

Half naked ladies are dancing in front of him. He's being paid by Jews and gay people among other people. The money he's earned are from the "so called" sins of the world.

Take a true stand and say "I quit basketball because of what it stands for"

But we all know what his true intentions are. He wants the limelight. He wants fans to idolize him. The action is to bring attention to himself.

He's a chump and loser

I agree with the last bit, but I'm not so sure if we should be pointing out the inconsistencies of religious people and how it relates to their lifestyle. Or that they should leave the country for holding opposite opinions than me, or that holding those opinions (about the NA) mean he dislikes the country.

 

[jlprk]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

To your hypothetical, I'd say that it would be to obey my religion. And I would have to leave.

Let me give YOU a case. The US government (in the form of Commander of ISAF in Kabul) tells me that I cannot share my faith with any local national in Iraq or Afghanistan. A core tenet of my faith is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. Do you think it's appropriate, respectful, protected under the Bill of Rights or just plain right for me to ignore that order because I have to live with myself? Or should I (as Abdul-Rauf did) obey the rules, and pray for forgiveness?

I'd ask some religious brains (and not just chaplains in the military) first. But if the Bible expressly commands it, I'd do it, if I were a deeply religious Christian.

A difference is that Muslim instructions command Waiters to not do something, while your analogy (a better one this time, one that makes me think) commands you to do something. I'm not sure whether this difference is relevant, since it's easier to not do something (the quantity is zero) than to do something all the time (the quantity is infinite?).

 

[magnifier661]

OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

I'm not sure if realizing that people are free to hold different beliefs than me is "cheesy".

The cheesy part is saying black is really white.

I agree with the last bit, but I'm not so sure if we should be pointing out the inconsistencies of religious people and how it relates to their lifestyle. Or that they should leave the country for holding opposite opinions than me, or that holding those opinions (about the NA) mean he dislikes the country.

Religion, politics or other ideologies. I mean look how you jump around with your liberal views?!

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

To your hypothetical, I'd say that it would be to obey my religion. And I would have to leave.

Let me give YOU a case. The US government (in the form of Commander of ISAF in Kabul) tells me that I cannot share my faith with any local national in Iraq or Afghanistan. A core tenet of my faith is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. Do you think it's appropriate, respectful, protected under the Bill of Rights or just plain right for me to ignore that order because I have to live with myself? Or should I (as Abdul-Rauf did) obey the rules, and pray for forgiveness?

If you're not in the US, and a visitor in a different country (that does not share the rights that the US does, i.e., like Canada does for the most part), I don't think it's an apt comparison.

Waiters, if he genuinely feels this way, isn't forcing it on anyone else or going against the law of the land OR against the religious beliefs of the nation/culture/community/region he's in. He's asking/letting it be known that is what he wants to do, which is a perfectly legal thing he wants to do.

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I'm not sure if realizing that people are free to hold different beliefs than me is "cheesy".



I agree with the last bit, but I'm not so sure if we should be pointing out the inconsistencies of religious people and how it relates to their lifestyle. Or that they should leave the country for holding opposite opinions than me, or that holding those opinions (about the NA) mean he dislikes the country.

I still think he'd love playing in Turkey and Karl Malone would kick his ass in the locker room promptly after hearing that statement...and yes, I'm making assumptions here

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

The cheesy part is saying black is really white.

where did I say that?

Religion, politics or other ideologies. I mean look how you jump around with your liberal views?!

I'm really not sure what you meant there. How am I being either hypocritical OR calling for someone to be fouled hard/leave the country for holding contrary views about something to me?

Have I said that Kaman should be fouled hard or kicked out of the country because he hunts (I see no reason for hunting)?

I'm sure there are examples of people (in sports) who have said things I don't agree with, but I'm fairly certain I never said they should leave the country, be unable to earn a living or be fouled hard because of it.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

I'm really not sure what you meant there. How am I being either hypocritical OR calling for someone to be fouled hard/leave the country for holding contrary views about something to me?

Have I said that Kaman should be fouled hard or kicked out of the country because he hunts (I see no reason for hunting)?

I'm sure there are examples of people (in sports) who have said things I don't agree with, but I'm fairly certain I never said they should leave the country, be unable to earn a living or be fouled hard because of it.

I'm just glad you were here to defend him. Otherwise this would be a boring thread!

America FUCK YEAH!

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

If you're not in the US, and a visitor in a different country (that does not share the rights that the US does, i.e., like Canada does for the most part), I don't think it's an apt comparison.

Waiters, if he genuinely feels this way, isn't forcing it on anyone else or going against the law of the land OR against the religious beliefs of the nation/culture/community/region he's in. He's asking/letting it be known that is what he wants to do, which is a perfectly legal thing he wants to do.

The fact that you think this is genuine is why it's so amusing

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

I'm just glad you were here to defend him. Otherwise this would be a boring thread!

America FUCK YEAH!

I see that Sly bumped the Roy thread..I'm hoping I was this much of an ass about Roy as I am here.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

I see that Sly bumped the Roy thread..I'm hoping I was this much of an ass about Roy as I am here.

Actually you were saying he is held to a higher standard and should be a leader. Flip flop much?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

I see that Sly bumped the Roy thread..I'm hoping I was this much of an ass about Roy as I am here.

Barfo bumped it. I just highlighted some of my posts.

 

[jlprk]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

Magnifier is now accusing someone of flip-flopping? Now I've seen it all.

Julius, you will get nowhere debating him. It's like, realize that Donald Trump is an entertainer, not a serious politician. I just decide to like Mags' eccentricity and debate the others, who are more steady.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

Magnifier is now accusing someone of flip-flopping? Now I've seen it all.

Julius, you will get nowhere debating him. It's like, realize that Donald Trump is an entertainer, not a serious politician. I just decide to like Mags' eccentricity and debate the others, who are more steady.

Repped!

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

Actually you were saying he is held to a higher standard and should be a leader. Flip flop much?

Oh I did? Did you actually read the through the thread and thought my posts presented that mindset? Because they didn't. They didn't even come close (I really hope you were kidding and I'm just not grasping at your sarcasm right now).

My first post.

Why is this an issue?

You sure you were reading MY posts?

My 2nd post.

So, Brandon Roy likes to sit in solitude during the National Anthem, and pray or be alone.

How is that much different than the odd practice of standing in a line on a basketball court? Why is one patriotic and the other isn't? Why is one correct, and the other is wrong?

He isn't being disrespectful, but the concrete interpretation that some people make about what makes you an American or how you must do what I do if you are to be a true American, is.

He sits in the tunnel area, and prays or has a moment alone. Why is that any worse than the times when I've talked to my dad about something during the NA? Not like we've carried on conversations, but I'll lean over to him and say "man, this singer/group is great/sucks/butchering the song!" And my dad, a veteran, will say something back.

Our people don't do that!

It is so presumptuous for anyone to declare their brand of American traditions or values as the mold for which we judge anyone else.

I support Brandons right to honor the National Anthem how he see's fit. I'm fairly certain he has the right to not be standing in a line. It'd be nice if he did, but I don't think it should be a requirement.

Plus, he's doing it because Obama and the rest of us socialist have recruited him to do so, and help start the trend of disparaging the flag!

Похвалите Мать Россия!

Then a couple posts about flying (? I'm just skimming, so I'm guessing it had to do with flying a plane and crashing it?) then a couple with shooter about Brandon Roy saying my people or your people or something to do with Abbott and Costello.


The ONLY part where I mentioned something about higher standard was this.

Why is Brandon held to a higher standard than fans are, who are in the concourse? Or the camera crew who keep filming or walking around?

This fabricated outrage is pointless. It's not a law that you have to do it, nor does it mean it's disrespect if you don't do it in the same manner you do it.

Your way is not the only way to show respect or honor the flag/country.

Which was me asking WHY is he being hold to a higher standard (this is why I'm somewhat convinced you were kidding, since there's no way someone could misread what I wrote and think I said what you thought I did).

I was actually very consistent in my beliefs here.

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

Magnifier is now accusing someone of flip-flopping? Now I've seen it all.

Julius, you will get nowhere debating him. It's like, realize that Donald Trump is an entertainer, not a serious politician. I just decide to like Mags' eccentricity and debate the others, who are more steady.

oh, I know..but I like Mags..he'll at least keep me engaged and it's kind of like keeping in shape.

Others will take things personally (myself included) and hold grudges..but I know with Mags, he'll forget it tomorrow morning.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

Oh I did? Did you actually read the through the thread and thought my posts presented that mindset? Because they didn't. They didn't even come close (I really hope you were kidding and I'm just not grasping at your sarcasm right now).

My first post.



You sure you were reading MY posts?

My 2nd post.




Then a couple posts about flying (? I'm just skimming, so I'm guessing it had to do with flying a plane and crashing it?) then a couple with shooter about Brandon Roy saying my people or your people or something to do with Abbott and Costello.


The ONLY part where I mentioned something about higher standard was this.



Which was me asking WHY is he being hold to a higher standard (this is why I'm somewhat convinced you were kidding, since there's no way someone could misread what I wrote and think I said what you thought I did).

I was actually very consistent in my beliefs here.

I feel complete. I feel like a kid in a playground right now. I actually led you to believe you had a different belief back then.

Looks like you've been taking advantage of prop 91?

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

Barfo bumped it. I just highlighted some of my posts.

I noticed that and meant to edit it, but mags got me sucked into searching that thread for my posts.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

oh, I know..but I like Mags..he'll at least keep me engaged and it's kind of like keeping in shape.

Others will take things personally (myself included) and hold grudges..but I know with Mags, he'll forget it tomorrow morning.

You do know me well!

 

[julius]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

I feel complete. I feel like a kid in a playground right now. I actually led you to believe you had a different belief back then.

Well at first I thought "wtf is he talking about??" but then I wanted to make sure it wasn't a case of me totally forgetting what i said and being a hypocrite. I knew I wasn't, but wanted to waste more time tonight.

Looks like you've been taking advantage of prop 91?

nope, don't partake.

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

Oh I did? Did you actually read the through the thread and thought my posts presented that mindset? Because they didn't. They didn't even come close (I really hope you were kidding and I'm just not grasping at your sarcasm right now).

My first post.



You sure you were reading MY posts?

My 2nd post.




Then a couple posts about flying (? I'm just skimming, so I'm guessing it had to do with flying a plane and crashing it?) then a couple with shooter about Brandon Roy saying my people or your people or something to do with Abbott and Costello.


The ONLY part where I mentioned something about higher standard was this.



Which was me asking WHY is he being hold to a higher standard (this is why I'm somewhat convinced you were kidding, since there's no way someone could misread what I wrote and think I said what you thought I did).

I was actually very consistent in my beliefs here.

First time I've seen someone repost all their posts for analysis. It's like an analog echoplex

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I'm proud of Julius for stepping into the non-stop arguing void left by PapaG.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national...

Well at first I thought "wtf is he talking about??" but then I wanted to make sure it wasn't a case of me totally forgetting what i said and being a hypocrite. I knew I wasn't, but wanted to waste more time tonight.


nope, don't partake.

So stand with me and let's give waiters a good hard foul. Let's welcome him to America!

 

[riverman]

Re: OT - Dion Waiters informs Cavs that he is a Muslim and plans to skip national ant

I'm proud of Julius for stepping into the non-stop arguing void left by PapaG.

Nailed it!