Politics The Joe Biden Thread (4 Viewers)

[crandc]

I am still trying to figure out who told me Manchin is a moderate. I must be listening to wrong they

Another thought. Read a column asserting Mike Pence, after four years of servile groveling, could not attend a Trump rally without heavy security. In fact his security detail would advise him not to attend at all because his life would be in danger. But he could attend a Biden rally and face not much worse than snide remarks.

 

[barfo]

These are a lot of reasons why large companies would prefer to support the current system rather than M4A. You can say they aren't big reasons, but together it is clearly more profitable and better for large corporation to have the current system with a more desperate and fearful work force.

Ok, let's hear the reasons. I think big business would be better off with a happier, healthier workforce. And I don't see evidence that the business community, overall, opposes M4A. There is, admittedly, a knee-jerk reaction on the part of many CEOs to support whatever the Republican party wants, because more CEOs are Rs than Ds. But that's politics not economics.

If we can agree that the current system is a huge pain in the ass for typical people then M4A would give employees far more leverage, there is no question about that. And large corporations want nothing to do with employees having more leverage.

But we can't agree on that. There's absolutely no evidence that formation of new ventures is being held back by the difficulty of acquiring health insurance, despite it being a pain. There is, conversely, plenty of evidence that people feel pretty free to form new ventures, and to quit their jobs when they feel the time is right.

barfo

 

[barfo]

I am still trying to figure out who told me Manchin is a moderate. I must be listening to wrong they

You are underestimating the power of brainwashing. First MSNBC brainwashed you that Manchin was a moderate, then they brainwashed you into thinking they didn't tell you that. And finally, they brainwashed you into thinking that you think that Manchin isn't a moderate, while actually you think what they told you to think.

It's all quite diabolical.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ok, let's hear the reasons. I think big business would be better off with a happier, healthier workforce. And I don't see evidence that the business community, overall, opposes M4A. There is, admittedly, a knee-jerk reaction on the part of many CEOs to support whatever the Republican party wants, because more CEOs are Rs than Ds. But that's politics not economics.



But we can't agree on that. There's absolutely no evidence that formation of new ventures is being held back by the difficulty of acquiring health insurance, despite it being a pain. There is, conversely, plenty of evidence that people feel pretty free to form new ventures, and to quit their jobs when they feel the time is right.

barfo

Wait. We can't agree that the current medical system is a hardship for most citizens?

I think we can.

That being the case, corporations will not want to give up that leverage.

I believe that you are right. M4A would be better for everyone. But it would leave current established corporations with less leverage. That's not opinion. It's just how things are.

For the same reason that slavery is not good for the country as a whole, but corporations and the elite still fought against freeing them.

The same reasons they (corporations and elites) fight against raising minimum wage. Or any other common good that would actually benefit everyone.

 

[barfo]

Wait. We can't agree that the current medical system is a hardship for most citizens?

I think we can.

That being the case, corporations will not want to give up that leverage.

I believe that you are right. M4A would be better for everyone. But it would leave current established corporations with less leverage. That's not opinion. It's just how things are.

For the same reason that slavery is not good for the country as a whole, but corporations and the elite still fought against freeing them.

The same reasons they (corporations and elites) fight against raising minimum wage. Or any other common good that would actually benefit everyone.

There is, indeed, a vast conspiracy to leave things the way they are.
That applies to pretty much everything, across the board.
I blame the founding fathers.

That said, I just don't buy the claim that the current healthcare system gives big companies significant leverage. I don't see any evidence it's true.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

There is, indeed, a vast conspiracy to leave things the way they are.
That applies to pretty much everything, across the board.
I blame the founding fathers.

That said, I just don't buy the claim that the current healthcare system gives big companies significant leverage. I don't see any evidence it's true.

barfo

Then you must be very sheltered from the suffering caused by our current healthcare system, and therefor the fear that people have of losing or even changing their employer provided healthcare.

 

[barfo]

Then you must be very sheltered from the suffering caused by our current healthcare system, and therefor the fear that people have of losing or even changing their employer provided healthcare.

I think those fears are unfounded for the average employee, if we are talking about changing jobs. I mean, you don't have to take a different job if they offer shit healthcare, just as you don't have to switch to a lower-wage employer.

If we are talking about losing a job, then yes, losing the employer paid healthcare could be quite a big blow. But then, losing the paycheck is presumably an even bigger blow.
So the employer has all the leverage they need over that unemployable-elsewhere employee without considering healthcare.

I'm not saying it's a great situation that people lose healthcare if they lose their job. We agree it's not. But that's a different topic than whether big businesses have leverage over small businesses.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think those fears are unfounded for the average employee, if we are talking about changing jobs. I mean, you don't have to take a different job if they offer shit healthcare, just as you don't have to switch to a lower-wage employer.

If we are talking about losing a job, then yes, losing the employer paid healthcare could be quite a big blow. But then, losing the paycheck is presumably an even bigger blow.
So the employer has all the leverage they need over that unemployable-elsewhere employee without considering healthcare.

I'm not saying it's a great situation that people lose healthcare if they lose their job. We agree it's not. But that's a different topic than whether big businesses have leverage over small businesses.

barfo

All employer provided healthcare is not the same. They all work differently. Some cover things others don't. And many will tell you they cover things when called, but then deny you once you actually have to make a claim.

Healthcare is every bit as important as salary for a great many people. Some people have planty of salary from one parent and the other provides the best insurance.

It's a big deal. It's a lot of leverage over the employee. Like another salary.

 

[barfo]

All employer provided healthcare is not the same. They all work differently. Some cover things others don't. And many will tell you they cover things when called, but then deny you once you actually have to make a claim.

That is true.

Healthcare is every bit as important as salary for a great many people. Some people have planty of salary from one parent and the other provides the best insurance.

It's a big deal. It's a lot of leverage over the employee. Like another salary.

I do see your point, but then if removing employer leverage over employees is the topic, then we could make all salaries the same. Or just pay everyone exactly the same amount regardless of whether they have a job. Or just outlaw employers altogether

Again, we were discussing whether big employers had an advantage over small employers, not whether employers had leverage over employees.
I will stipulate employers have leverage over employees. And vice versa, to some degree.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

That is true.



I do see your point, but then if removing employer leverage over employees is the topic, then we could make all salaries the same. Or just pay everyone exactly the same amount regardless of whether they have a job. Or just outlaw employers altogether

Again, we were discussing whether big employers had an advantage over small employers, not whether employers had leverage over employees.
I will stipulate employers have leverage over employees. And vice versa, to some degree.

barfo

Wait. I thought we were discussing why media and large corporations wouldn't support M4A?

My answer is basically because M4A would cost them a ton of leverage and lost opportunity.

People are better profit centers and easier to control if they are marginalized and feel less in control.

 

[barfo]

Wait. I thought we were discussing why media and large corporations wouldn't support M4A?

My answer is basically because M4A would cost them a ton of leverage and lost opportunity.

People are better profit centers and easier to control if they are marginalized and feel less in control.

Ok then. So I still disagree, but I do understand your point. I just think Obamacare eliminated a whole lot of that, since you can buy insurance now as an individual at a reasonable cost (comparable to what corporations pay). It's vastly far from an ideal situation, but a person who can afford not to work has no reason to feel enslaved by employer healthcare.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ok then. So I still disagree, but I do understand your point. I just think Obamacare eliminated a whole lot of that, since you can buy insurance now as an individual at a reasonable cost (comparable to what corporations pay). It's vastly far from an ideal situation, but a person who can afford not to work has no reason to feel enslaved by employer healthcare.

barfo

Solid point. I've not had any experience with Obamacare.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[Phatguysrule]

Hmm... I should swing by for brunch sometime...

 

[crandc]

In an interview, Cornel West said he would sit down with President Xi of China to talk war and environment. Apparently China supporting Putin in Ukraine and churning out greenhouse gases is because previous presidents wouldn't sit? Or maybe West has such extraordinary powers of persuasion?

In a jaw dropping both siderism he said he would do the same with Zelensky. Ukraine is not an aggressor. West made it clear he would reduce aid to Ukraine because they did mean things to Russia. After being invaded.

Great alternative. Biden is old but clear headed enough to know difference between aggressor and victim.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

In an interview, Cornel West said he would sit down with President Xi of China to talk war and environment. Apparently China supporting Putin in Ukraine and churning out greenhouse gases is because previous presidents wouldn't sit? Or maybe West has such extraordinary powers of persuasion?

In a jaw dropping both siderism he said he would do the same with Zelensky. Ukraine is not an aggressor. West made it clear he would reduce aid to Ukraine because they did mean things to Russia. After being invaded.

Great alternative. Biden is old but clear headed enough to know difference between aggressor and victim.

We should be cutting aid to Israel and Ukraine significantly. Until the citizens of this country start getting the same things as the citizens of other countries, we shouldn't be spending somewhere else.

 

[Road Ratt]

Biden supporters keep score of Biden's "wins", yet will never ever accept Biden's failures, or his corruption. Might as well be talking to a Trump supporter...

America got rid of monopolies before I was born. Does a Biden supporter know how many monopolies America currently has? Of course they don't. I can't even find an end to the number of monopolies their are in America. But they shouldn't be there with the laws we already have in place.

Biden hasn't ended one monopoly since taking office. Of course he hasn't, Biden is owned by our oligarchy.

Biden hasn't ended "For Profit Prisons". Of course he hasn't, Biden is owned by our oligarchy.

Biden hasn't helped one American off of our sidewalks. Of course he hasn't. Biden doesn't care about the poor. Same as his oligarchy owners.

If I had my full faculties I could easily make a larger list of Biden's failures. Will his followers accept it? Of course not, they only care about defending Biden. Same as a Trump supporter only cares about defending Trump.

I see no difference between a Trump supporter and a Biden supporter. Neither side will accept facts, unless those facts are a positive for their candidate or party. No negative, no facts about failures will ever make it through.

This is why it is a complete waste of time to talk politics to either side. Facts be damned...



Edit: The entirety of the west coast is turning into one giant homeless camp with crime abounding. I believe the democrats control the west coast states. Sure republicans turn a blind eye to their states own homeless problems. But, If a democrat truly cared about humans, their would be little to no homeless in their states at all. Yet their are miles and miles of homeless in California.

Our sidewalks show how much democrats care about human life. Which is, not at all.

 

[crandc]

If it's a waste of time, why post long screeds assuming you know other people's thoughts?

 

[crandc]

Fox "news" outraged because Biden petted a search and rescue dog in Maui.

Hate dogs. That wins a lot of votes, Republicans!

 

[barfo]

We should be cutting aid to Israel and Ukraine significantly. Until the citizens of this country start getting the same things as the citizens of other countries, we shouldn't be spending somewhere else.

What things are the citizens of Ukraine getting that you want? Missiles? Amputations?

I'm not sure I understand the basis for the jealousy here.

barfo

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[Phatguysrule]

Kinda just looks like he's looking down and listening...

Dude looks old though. No doubt.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

What things are the citizens of Ukraine getting that you want? Missiles? Amputations?

I'm not sure I understand the basis for the jealousy here.

barfo

We need medicare for all, affordable education, affordable housing, etc before we send billions to Ukraine or any other country.

You don't understand that?

 

[barfo]

We need medicare for all, affordable education, affordable housing, etc before we send billions to Ukraine or any other country.

You don't understand that?

I was having fun with your phrasing - I don't think we are providing any of those things to Ukraine.
That said, I don't think it's an either/or choice. We can (in theory) do everything on your list, plus send aid to Ukraine.
The problem isn't a lack of money.

barfo

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I was having fun with your phrasing - I don't think we are providing any of those things to Ukraine.
That said, I don't think it's an either/or choice. We can (in theory) do everything on your list, plus send aid to Ukraine.
The problem isn't a lack of money.

barfo

I generally agree, but that just isn't the case at the moment.

It's absolutely inexplicable Hawaiians are getting a one time $700 check while we're shoveling hundreds of billions to weapons manufacturers and defense contractors.

 

[barfo]

I generally agree, but that just isn't the case at the moment.

It's absolutely inexplicable Hawaiians are getting a one time $700 check while we're shoveling hundreds of billions to weapons manufacturers and defense contractors.

Well, if the Hawaiians made weapons, we'd be able to pay them more.

What is a fair amount of money to provide the victims of this sort of thing (fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, landslides, etc)?
Should it be income or asset dependent? Should we pay more if deaths occur? Take into account the value of the property destroyed?
Should people who live in flood plains or build on unstable soil get less? Compensate for loss of business income? Mental anguish?
Loss of appetite?

It's a complicated question, I think. $700 may not be the right number, but I don't know what the right number is.

barfo

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Well, if the Hawaiians made weapons, we'd be able to pay them more.

What is a fair amount of money to provide the victims of this sort of thing (fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, landslides, etc)?
Should it be income or asset dependent? Should we pay more if deaths occur? Take into account the value of the property destroyed?
Should people who live in flood plains or build on unstable soil get less? Compensate for loss of business income? Mental anguish?
Loss of appetite?

It's a complicated question, I think. $700 may not be the right number, but I don't know what the right number is.

barfo

I don't know. It seems like you're sympathizing with the corporate Democrat mantra that everything needs to be means-tested.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Well, if the Hawaiians made weapons, we'd be able to pay them more.

What is a fair amount of money to provide the victims of this sort of thing (fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, landslides, etc)?
Should it be income or asset dependent? Should we pay more if deaths occur? Take into account the value of the property destroyed?
Should people who live in flood plains or build on unstable soil get less? Compensate for loss of business income? Mental anguish?
Loss of appetite?

It's a complicated question, I think. $700 may not be the right number, but I don't know what the right number is.

barfo

Seems like we could pretty easily dock a cruise ship or two near there to house and feed everyone who lost a home in the fires while they wait for FEMA to rebuild their homes...

 

[crandc]

Tucker Carlson and other right wing media using doctored video to make it look like Biden was asleep. Also, he petted a dog.

 

[barfo]

I don't know. It seems like you're sympathizing with the corporate Democrat mantra that everything needs to be means-tested.

"I'm just asking questions..."

barfo